Forum Activity for @john-p

Thanks Greg,

I guess you know 'Kung Fu Hustle' then

Kung Fu Hustle zither fight

Hi Dusty,

"I'll Tell Me Ma".

I've added this to Val's "A New Tune to Learn" thread in the Irish Group.

Learn a New Tune

(bottom of the page)

You have to include 'I'll Tell Me Ma' as well.

Hi Babs,

Had a quick look, think I've got it right.

For a fixed Do then I think you need to go for DAA tuning with the major scale starting on the 3rd fret.

This will put the FA# on the 6+ fret melody string.

I think you're going to have to accept that there is no magic string set that will cover a complete octave on each string, basically what you're asking for.

What you can normally expect from one string is 5, maybe 6 notes.

IOW, there will always be 1, maybe 2 keys that can't be treated in the way you're asking, and require special measures such as 'reverse' tuning, capos and false nuts etc.

Hi Noah,

Most of the confusion arises because of the two different styles of play.

Modern practice is to play the dulcimer as if it were a lap guitar(though you're not really supposed to say so) and, like the guitar, uses a fixed tuning such as DAd.
If you're playing in this style there is no need to retune, and such instruments can be set up with an optimum string set that is tailored to just that one tuning.

The old style is to retune the instrument, depending on what key you want and what mode you want. This requires a string set that is a whole lot more versatile than one designed to just tune DAd.

The consequence is that when you come to look at drone style playing, many new players have never had to retune, or tune to anything except DAd and are really just lacking in confidence. Getting stuck in and maybe breaking the odd string to start with is the way over this.
The melody string used for DAd is not ideal for other tunings and generally needs to be beefed up a bit.

So yes, with a carefully chosen string set you should have no trouble tuning most(common) keys in most modes, it's just that strings designed mainly for DAd may not be the best choice.

Has as much to do with availability as anything else I think Grahame.

Where did you get a dulcimer from back in those days? It took me nearly a year to find one, and I was really looking ... and it was crap. I ended up almost rebuilding the thing.
Joni Mitchell broke hers on tour and her Road Manager was near to desperation trying to find a replacement. There just wasn't that many instruments around.

As I remember those days, Irish bands were more interested in adding mandolins and bazoukis anyway.

The other side has more to do with what the record distribution companies put out, Steeleye Span were one of the few and Tim Hart got featured. Otherwise it was small lables like Bill Leader's that carried a few players, Roger Nicholson, Pete & Chris Coe, Stephan Sobell etc.

I'm going to be playing this forever and I'm so thankful that I was able to build it.

Great when that happens and such a beauty too.

I've got a beat up old mongrel that I've had for 40 years, wouldn't swap it for the world.

Chuck - Drop your middle string a tone (DGd) and try the original fret order I gave you.

The tune is Ionian as far as I can tell. DAd is a mixalydian tuning and won't sound so good with that FO.

Try Bob's suggestion of Ddd, or A'AA if you want something lower.

Hi Chuck,

The fret order I gave you is for melody string only and needs to be played up the fretboard to stop yourself dropping off the bottom end.

You can take it down an octave by subtracting 7 from the FO, but you'll need to borrow a couple of notes off the bass string,
6 => 3 on the bass.
5 => 2 on the bass.

What tuning are you using ???
As with the whistle, the FO doesn't change, it's the tuning that determines the key.

If you've got yourself cast in DAd you'll need a 6+, in this case reduce the FO by 3. (9 => 6+)

Hi Chuck,

Not sure which tune you're referring to here.

'The LAKE Isle of Innisfree' is a poem by W B Yates, though I've not heard it sung.

'The Isle of Innisfree' is an American popular song that I know from some old John Wayne film. Is this the one you want?

It's Ionian and goes something along the lines of :

7 10 11 12 10 7 5 10 9 9 8
11 10 9 8 7 8 7 6 5
7 10 11 12 12 12 12 11 10 13 8
11 10 9 7 6 7 9 11 10

D tuning would be DAA

G tuning would be DGd

Hope that's enough to get you going.

Well done Ken, you're finally getting the hang of it, just the one error that I can see this post

Aeolian tuning is DAc, not DAC.

Hi Liz,

Don't worry about the number of sound holes, it may have a small effect if the hourglass shape is looked at as two chambers, but the reason is more likely to be pure aesthetics, or even something more practical.

I've seen dulcimers with 3 sound holes where the missing one is on the upper bout nearest your body. If you are playing drone style(sliding up and down the melody string only) then it's all too easy to get you fingers caught, especially with a low fretboard. I find myself playing with my pinky cocked up a lot to avoid the sound hole.

As far as strings go, what you have ordered will probably work OK for most tunings, but if you find yourself being taught in DAD a lot you may want to drop the melody string a gauge or two.
I suspect Ken likes a very lightly strung instrument that can be tuned a bit higher than standard,

I play mainly in DAA and favour a 22 on the bass and 11s on the middle and melody.

Ken - the 1+ is on the middle string, not the melody string. Tuning to DAA and adding 3 will just move it to the 1+ fret on the melody string(not the 4th fret). You will also need the 8+ to cover the 6's.

-------------------------------

This is something that crops up in a fairly large number of tunes where the root note falls on the open string, so maybe it's worth spending a bit of time looking at ways of working around it if you're playing Drone style.

The problem.
============

When the root note is on the open string(mixalydian) there is no leeway to go any lower on the melody string. In the case of SMTTF the tune calls for the note below the root, so you have to find some other way of getting this.

With no extra frets.

1) 'Fudge' it or leave it out. This works well for some tunes, but unfortunately, the note we're looking for here is the most important for this mode( a minor 7th), and it's not so easy to leave it out without changing the character of the song.

2) Move to the higher register(octave) i.e. move the root note to the 7th fret by adding 7 to the TAB (1+ on the middle becomes 6 on the melody).
Give this a try first. It may not sound particularly good, many dulcimers tend to lose something up the dusty end, but it will give you a good view of what the problem is when you go back down to the lower register with the root on the open string.

3) Borrow the note you want from one of the other strings.
If you're in DAD (key of D) then the note you want is a 'C' which can be found at the 6th fret on the bass. This is a bit of a stretch and probably not a very good solution.
Or you can take Cynthia's approach and move the melody on to the middle string (key of A) then the note you want is a 'G' which can be found at the 3rd fret on the bass.

With a 1+ fret.

4) Tune to DAA and add 3 to the TAB. (1+ on the middle becomes a 1+ on the melody).

5) Play as TABed in DAD, borrowing the note you want from the 1+ on the middle.

With a 6+ fret.

6) I've left this to last as it is often the most practical solution.
Tune to DAG(Dorian) and add 4 to the TAB. (The 1+ becomes a 3, and the 3 becomes a 6+)

Advanced technique.

7) Make any extra notes you need using an angled noter.

Glad you liked them Ruth

"On Christmas Night" is better known as 'The Sussex Carol', here's Maddy Prior.

Plays really well in Noter/Drone.

Hi Ruth,

I think a lot of the older carols were originally folk tunes, it's the more modern 'composed' ones that are 'churchified'.

One of my favourites for dulcimer is "On Christmas night, the angels Sing", sounds like a Morris tune to me if ever there was one.

'Sans Day' carol and 'Down in Yon Forest' are a couple of other good one.

MSI = MicroSoft Installer package.

I rate the shortish 'Play' section of that book as one of the best absolute beginner scripts I have ever come across, simple and uncluttered, with some very useful illustrations.

I still have a copy of that somewhere.

Didn't get hold of it until a year or two after I got my first dulcimer. It was my first introduction to all this mode stuff

I found it all very simple and easy to follow.

I've been buying John Pearse dulcimers for years and have had about 5 through my hands since. Great little things, I love 'em.

It would have been one of 'Red River Valley' , 'You are my Sunshine' , 'Good bye Girls I'm Going to Boston' or Bonepart Crossing the Rhine'. Probably Red River Valley.

These were the first few tunes I was taught and they got played to death until the fateful day when I was playing GBGIGTB and it morphed into 'The Dorset Four Hand Reel'. That was when I discovered I could play by ear and didn't need to remember fret orders or anything like that. There was no stopping after that and suddenly I could play hundreds of tunes.

Thinking back to those days(early 70s) a couple of songs I remember as very popular were 'Willie Moore' and 'Pretty Polly', neither seems to get much of a mention nowadays.

Let's hope it hasn't left the country

' Oh you know all the notes, and you sing all the words, but you never quite learn the song ... ' The Hedgehog Song

Know the feeling well Randy. Someone asked me to play 'The Siege of Delhi' the other week, no trouble working out the notes, no trouble working out the rhythm, but fitting the two together is a nightmare. Easy enough to play slow*** but as soon as you try and get up to speed your arm's swinging about like a demented pendulum and any fine control goes out the window.
In the end you just find yourself 'catching' it one day and then wonder why it was ever a bother in the first place

*** It does seem fashionable to play some of these old tunes that commemorate massacres as laments instead of quick marches nowadays though.

True that.

I always liked 'Quittin Time at Essex Mine' ... I'm a sucker for a good waltz.

Liked that very much Gordon

It's always difficult writing down something that is done almost instinctively. I think we use all sorts of methods all at the same time.

So I might be trying to match a note I can hear in my head, or seeing if the next note is up or down, or trying to gauge how far away it is(the spaces inbetween), Then the words and notes might not sync up and I realise I've missed a note somewhere, or I've got all the notes for the words but need to slip in an extra little something to keep the rhythm going etc.

Every so often shut your eyes and try to carry on playing. Even if you only manage 2 or 3 notes before you have to open them again it does wonders for your confidence.

Thanks for casting the net a bit wider Peter.

One of my all time favourite Finnish songs is :

Great singer, great tune , plays really well in N/D.

A couple of tunes I like to play round and around :

Pretty Saro

Suzy McGuire

Elk River Blues

Hi Joe,

Just to point out that if you bend the sides it should be done with riven or laminated wood. Otherwise you're in no better a position than if you cut the shape from a block.

Well spotted Strel, saw this recently on the News and meant to mention it. Didn't realise it was still available.

We had a N/harp player at the club a few months back, she's been turning up at some point most years.

Question is - can you tell from SHAPE alone.

Nothing to do with wood, builder, tune, player, home fret, size etc. etc.

The test is poorly designed if only two instruments are being used, there should be a dozen or more.

I guess the men do have it easy, and are not judged on their fashion sense in the same way that women are.

A couple of tips I can pass on :

Black is the new rhinestone - and don't make the same mistake that Wayne has by wearing blue ear rings with a green shirt

Thanks Guy,

We're obviously talking at cross purposes here then. In drone style you can only play the natural minor, both the harmonic and melodic minor scales would require frets that don't exist on a standard dulcimer. What you are asking for is a sequence of five successive semitones.(frets 5, 6, 6+, 7, 7+, 8)

Which is why it is so important to distinguish between chord and drone styles and whether you have additional frets or not.

This is getting way off topic, so I shall leave it there.

Hi Guy,

Not really understanding that, are you talking drone style and do you have a 6+. If you raise the 7th then you no longer have a diatonic scale(do you have an example of this, I can't think of one myself), and if you raise the 6th then it's no longer Aeolian but Dorian. In fact, most minor mode tunes you come across are gapped at the 6th and therefore playable in both Dorian and Aeolian, (and Phrygian if you have a 6+).

But that's what you get when talking modes

It's pointless trying to discuss modes if you don't know the type of instrument being used and what style of playing is being talked about. What's good for one is not always much use for another.

At the very least you should say if you have any extra frets and whether you are playing drone or chord style, otherwise you're just asking for confusion.

If you play drone style then the important things are whether there are any gaps in the scale and where abouts this places your home fret. Modes are just a convenient way of putting a label on this.

If you play chord style then I don't really understand why you are talking about modes at all, but that's probably because of living in the UK . It was more than thirty years before I even met another dulcimer player and the whole post-revival thing passed me by

The only time I've found a thorough knowledge of modes useful is if you're tabbing out a piano score, that is, moving from chromatic to diatonic.

Had a good laugh there Ellen

Picks are only good up to a point ... time comes when only a shovel will do.

Well that's a whole heap of data there Patty, like Dusty, I had trouble making sense of it all.

A couple of things come to mind.

Most likely it's a question of finding the correct position for the bridge and then finding the best combination of string thickness. You usually have to play one variable against the other to get this.

Are there any signs in the wood or colouration(fading etc.) that suggest the bridge was set at an angle across the fretboard.

The 6+ fret doesn't fit quite the same pattern of sharp and flat as the other frets. Maybe ignore results from this fret for the time being and base everything on the whole numbers.

Here's a video that shows the steps to fitting the Knilling tuners on a violin, you may not need to do the end trimming on a dulcimer, up to you really.

Bit pricey, but may be less trouble than fitting something non tapered. And as Ken says, the process is reversible if need be.

Another thing to consider with other types of tuners is whether the faces of the pegbox are flat or not.

Hi Louis,

Mate of mine had one of those that I've given a try. I found it comfey enough, but maybe not suited to everyone.(I have the sort of build that can accommodate almost anything)

He used it for fishing though, which seemed to consist mainly of lounging on a river bank drinking cups of tea

Strictly speaking 'gaggle' refers to wild geese. domestic ones are flocks or herds. Then, only if they're on the ground, when they're flying they become a skein.

"She as only a goose herders daughter ... "

Hi Beth,

You're already a victim of the multple tunning notations we spoke of earlier.

DAaa is plain wrong and indicates the middle and melody strings are an octave apart. This is not the case, they are both the same and would be written DAA.

DAA usually referes to an Ionian tuning, that is your scale starts on the 3rd fret which is a 'd', an octave above the bass.

Something you may be missing - octaves run from C to B, i.e. C D E F G A B c d e ... , so A is in fact a higher note than D.

You don't have to tune to DAA, you can use CGG if it's more comfortable for your voice.

Take another look at Strel or Ken's blogs.

john

Hi Beth

There are multiple ways of writing tunings, and in the end it's probably easiest to just use standard guitar notation, i.e. all upper case.

First, make sure you are reading these in the right order, from bass to treble, thickest string to thinest. Some of the older books do it the other way around though.

Upper case indicates the lowest notes and lower case any notes that are in the next octave up.

DAd means D on the bass, A on the middle, and d (in the higher octave) on the melody.
DAA means D on the bass, A on the middle, and A on the melody, all in the same octave.

If you see DAD you can be pretty sure this means just the same as DAd though.

In practice, your string gauges won't let you tune to the wrong octave, they will be too slack or broken if you do.

When it comes to intervals W means a Whole tone(2 semitones) and h means a half tone(1 semitone)/
Another system goes TTSTTTS - Tone, Tone, Semitone ...
Or, as you have it, 2212221.

Here's a chart that puts the modes in order(most major to most minor), shows the intervals involved, and what the Home Frets are.

Any thing you don't understand, ask away and you'll get a dozen different answers :)

john