Forum Activity for @nate

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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Hello Corvus. The best I understand it is that the stronger and brighter tone noticeable over the strumhollow is due to picking/strumming near the end of the string length, not the hollow itself. An easy demonstration of this is if you strum the open string all the way at the top just above the first fret, the tone is nearly identical to over the hollow. This leads me to believe that the same tone could be accomplished without the hollow. It's also worth noting that the demand for strumhollows does not imply an actual utility function to them. A couple builders have already mentioned that they don't consider it functionally important, but know that their customers want it. It is aesthetically nice, and more importantly it is the norm, but is it actually useful?

Please tell me your very favorite love song...

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I am a big fan of Annie's Song by John Denver, (though I have been hesitant to play it for my lady friend as it seems a bit corny )  so I guess my favorite to play would be Can't Help Falling in Love :)

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

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Yes, a zero fret seems to me to be an easy way to ensure a nice radius to your nut.

Interesting I have always just used the term bridge i guess because the book i learned from (which is not a credible book) says it.

I would say though that where the strings are anchored should only matter if you assume that the portion of string length outside the VSL matters, which seems like it may not be the case. I would wonder mechanistically how it is that where the string is mounted affects anything and what it may affect?

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

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This might end up being a controversial topic, since I cant seem to find a lot of agreement on it elsewhere, but I'd like to know what y'all know and have observed about how much the headstock angle, length of the headstock, radius of the nut, and bridge breakpoint angle, radius of the bridge, and excess of string between the bridge and tailpins affect tone, volume, and sustain.

My research has indicated to me that people just dont agree for the most part on these questions. The highly credible @Ken-Hulme said in a forum post *"Position of bridge relative to the string pins or break over the end (how much string is aft of the bridge) affects sustain"* Lutes have an extremely sharp headstock angle, apparently due to the desire to ensure that the strings have a rigid boundary to their VSL. Brian May's Red Special has such a subtle headstock angle it almost appears that the string is not bent over the nut at all. One local luthier has personally told me that a 10 degree headstock angle is necessary to ensure that the string is held in place and anything past that is just builders preference. Gibson has some guitars with infamously sharp headstock angles, which their website claims improves tone. My friend Allen took a board and stretched several strings across it at different angles, and told me that a 6 degree angle was the lowest he could avoid buzzing at. (interestingly I looked at my acoustic guitars and noticed both of them have a <10 degree angle that they stretch over the bridge at) He is much stronger than me at physics, so I'm inclined to believe his explanation that you need enough downward force on the VSL boundary to be greater than any upward force from the string's vibration, and any additional force past that is redundant. Makes sense to me since that's the case with fretting; you only need just enough pressure to keep the string in contact with the fret, adding more pressure past that does not give extra sustain, tone, or volume, so why would the bridge and nut be different?

One key difference that has come up in my own experiments is that in the past I often cut my nut and bridge at a straight angle (whereas frets are obviously rounded on their tops) and noticed buzzes, and abnormally quiet sound. It was explained to me that I should not expect a steel string to bend at an angle, rather at a radius.  When I went back and cut new bridges with a radius past the break point the difference was night and day in terms of increased volume and resolving buzzing issues. In the attached image the black objects represent 'bridges' the red lines represent 'strings'. The first diagram shows a 'bridge' with very minimal contact, which I believe puts tremendous amounts of extra stress on the bridge and the string. The second shows better contact but still a sharp angle at the breakpoint, which i believe can cause intonation issues and buzzing since the string might not actually be able to bend all the way to match the angle of the bridge without over-applying string tension, and therefore the breakpoint may be further back on the bridge than intended. The third diagram is what I currently do more or less, which is round off the side of the bridge and nut that is outside the VSL so that the string has a lot of contact and no sharp angles. I have never paid attention to the length of string outside the VSL, I have always assumed that if you have adequate downward force on the bridge and nut, that anything past them is irrelevant. A lot to think about but I'm sure plenty of you have thought about these things before! I'd love some more perspective

updated by @nate: 05/10/20 02:34:31PM

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

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That is very insightful, thank you Grant!

Reading your perception of the differences it's pretty apparent to me that I am not at a level of knowledge yet to be trying to add in other equidistant strings. I think at the core, I am wanting to move towards all kinds of changes to improve my sound including chromatic scales, extra strings, and more elaborate courses, but probably the only one I am ready for yet is  more elaborate courses. I think at this moment I am mainly just considering any ways i can make the sound itself fuller or prettier, not necessarily ways to give it more notes.....yet!

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

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Thank you for such a comprehensive response Ken. I guess I am mostly asking about different tunings to the courses but also dont really know if it makes more sense to just add extra strings in equidistantly. I'll try to notate the tunings more coherently going forward, I was not aware of the correct way to write them.

And yes 12 strings are a bit of a challenge for me but specifically my hands have gotten used to the freedom of sliding around and only having to stay over 1 string per finger while they do. So i have gotten used to hand positions that put pressure in the exact place on the string that I need, and when another one is added in, my muscle memory doesnt compensate for having to move my finger slightly to the side well enough. That being said if I can find a tuning that has a sound I really like, it would be a pleasure to put in the practice.

Anyway, I am very curious  if you can still use DAd tabs with the tunings you mention? Will they still sound correct? I have a hard time understanding how our ears interpret these intervals but intuitively it seems like if your melody string was Ad it would change some chords. Is this the case? Also if the middle string is tuned 'Aa' (which I think is A3a4) then the highest pitch open string would be the middle correct? Does this affect the way the sound is perceived if the melody you are fretting is lower in pitch than the drone, instead of typically always being higher? Again, to be clear, this is all coming from an uneducated perspective.

updated by @nate: 05/06/20 02:49:11PM

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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Yes, unfortunately I had my doubts that the spaces would be big enough, though I would say it may still be useful for picking styles where the pinky is used to anchor the hand in place. Of course I eventually intend to practice enough that it stops being a concern, but since I build all my own dulcimers, I frequently indulge on 'crutch' modifications that help the sound along in the meantime. Not to correct the mistakes in my technique, but to correct the sound even in the event of a mistake so that it's more appealing to listeners while I am still learning and often mess up! 

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

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I'd like to put more strings on my next dulcimer. I have a 6 string dulcimer which is tuned dd-AA-DD. Very cumbersome to get used to fretting those extra strings and not all that much 'fuller' of a sound in my opinion. @Granto has one which I've seen in his videos that is tuned D3 A3 D4 A4 which I'd love to do eventually but for now I gotta study theory more so I can actually get some use out of the extra range. The same goes for adding an f# string as in d-A-F#-D Someone mentioned on here a dulcimer tuned dd-a-Dd with a D4 string running in course with the D3. That's hard to wrap my head around.I am aware that 12 string guitars often use 'octave tuned' courses, but It seems to me that this might get in the way. For example 'dyad' chords which only use the middle and bass string would still have those high notes that you are meant to be specifically avoiding playing. Also I'd imagine the bridge would have to be cut bizarrely for better intonation. What do y'all think? Have you heard dulcimers tuned like this? Are you aware of specific issues in building or playing that relate to adding extra strings? What do yall think is an ideal 'extra' string or strings to add to a dd-a-D dulcimer? Finally what about these two extremely radical tuning ideas: d4d4-A3A3-D3D2 as well as d4D3-A3A2-D3D2 basically, all three strings running in course with their lower octave. Conceptually i would think it would sound good but I have no education in music or building so It might very well be muddy or chaotic or impractical. I'd love to hear thoughts!

updated by @nate: 05/07/20 11:38:18AM

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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I saw a Stephen Seifert video where he showed a dulcimer made for him that had a strumhollow which went all the way up to the 14th fret (16th literally) and he explained it was made this way because that was where he preferred to strum. I have attached an image. What do y'all think of the idea of hollowing out one of the spaces between two of the frets low down the fretboard? For example, if there was a strumhollow between the 8th and 9th frets, another between the 12th and 13th and another just past the bottom frets? Then while playing the top of the fretboard you could use the top strumhollow, while playing the middle you could use the middle strumhollow, and when playing way down the frets you can use the traditional strumhollow. Maybe this would be structurally weak or ugly, but I would expect that it would be more practical for consistent sound quality with less effort and technique and also would maybe reduce the damage over time caused from the pick hitting the fretboard.

Dulcimer String Anchor Pins

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Very neat workaround. Definitely an aesthetically nice solution

What's your favorite tune or dulcimer to play this month?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Have been practicing on Ashokan Farewell trying to get fluid on it. Very fond of Dusty's performance and have watched it a few times for study!

Favorite Dulcimer to play right now is my 30" long dulcimer. Keep it between us, but i never bothered to finish trimming the frets down

Is the strumhollow redundant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I built my first dulcimer before I had ever seen or heard any played, after reading a page in a homesteading book on how to build them. I sort of just assumed the strumhollow is where you strum. Once I watched a couple videos about antinodes I realized I should strum in the middle of the string, and once I watched some dulcimer videos I realized most players strum about 1/4 the way up the string from the bridge. Most players agree the strumhollow is just not the sweet place to strum. For a while I stopped adding them, and instead would just hollow out the channel on the underside of the fingerboard all the way down to the bridge. It worked terrifically and probably was much more structurally sound than a strumhollow due to the shape. Sometimes on quicker builds I will even just drill a few holes where the strumhollow would be, to reduce the mass of the neck without sacrificing so much structural integrity. What do y'all think? is there any value to a strumhollow other than just to reduce some of the wood off the fingerboard? Is extending the channel on the underside just as effective as adding a strum hollow? Is drilling holes like on this strumstick as effective?

Finish

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The first three dulcimers I made for practice were exactly identical in materials and dimensions, but one was unprotected craftboard, one had just enough of a poly stain mix to coat the surface, and the third had a heavy few coats of poly forming a shell around the wood. These three were all made from craftboard so not exactly identical grain or anything, but the difference in the three was stark. The bare craftboard has by far the softest most mellow tone, and the one with a heavy poly coat is very twangy and bright, while the one with a modest amount of poly falls in between. The one with the most poly is loudest, and the one with exposed wood is the quietest, also. My assumption has been that because the poly is stiffer than the wood, the more i add, the more the tonal quality resembles a stiffer type of wood. I dont know how this would translate to harder types of wood. Maybe if it were a wood that is stiffer than the poly it would actually dampen the sound?

What's the deal with Aquavinas?

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What's the deal with Aquavinas?

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Sorry for the late response but I finally shot a quick video showing how the bundt pan sounds. Unfortunately I had to shoot it on my phone so the audio quality i a bit lacking, but here it is for those who expressed curiousity!

What's the deal with Aquavinas?

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The best I understand it is that as the water moves around the pan, it alters the vibration in the places it is in contact with the pan. What I think this means is that to get the most effect you want the water to be moving around as much as possible. When i fill the pan nearly all the way it 'muddies' the tone and as it sloshes does not change the tone very much at all. Just enough water to go across the bottom has almost no noticeable effect. Putting about 1/2" of water at the bottom of the pan seems to have the most pronounced effect of any level. I have also noticed that the thinner the metal of the pan, the louder the effect is. 

What's the deal with Aquavinas?

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At some point I found myself on the Wikipedia page for mountain dulcimers where I saw a description of a mountain dulcimer variant called an "Aquavina." The description given went as follows: "... essentially a variant of the Appalachian Dulcimer , but with a metal resonator body partially filled with water. The player would agitate the instrument while playing, resulting in a constant acoustic phasing effect within the instrument's  harmonics"

I had already made dulcimers out of things like coffee cans, cookie tins, and frying pans so immediately this seemed right up my alley. A bit of googling later I was only able to find indication of one actual song recorded by the inventor called "Naïades" which I was unable to find any recordings of. The only audio I was able to find at all was a video of a so-called "junk aquavina" which had very primitive design, two strings, was played with a slide, and seemed to have audio effects added on, as well as other instruments played over it. Basically I have no idea what this thing is supposed to sound like.

I figured if no one else knows what it sounds like, maybe I can find out for myself, and when I considered the definition I quickly thought of an idea that's been bouncing around my head for a while that utilizes a bundt pan as a resonator. Once I built it, I poured some water in the bundt pan and started playing and WOW. Very difficult to describe. The best I can articulate is that it's a lot like having a mild "wah wah pedal" electric guitar effect every time you slightly move the instrument. It adds a dreamlike ambiance. 

The first adjective I thought of was 'dreamy' yet the wiki page uses the term "eerie" and the 'junk aquavina' video also sounds quite ominous, though I am not assuredly convinced that either of those are definitive. I'd love to find out more. As it stands I've made a few using bundt pans filled partially with water. I'll include an image of one of them, and will make a video soon to show how mine sounds, but I'm very curious about what you guys know. Have any of you folks ever made any? Played one? Ever heard one? Seen one in person? Does anyone know where I can find any videos of them? Images? 

John Molineux uses a striker on a mountain dulcimer

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Very fascinating. I first started playing dulcimer using a colored pencil for a striker. At the time i was listening to a blues artist named eddie jones who played a diddley bow with a whittled stick and thought maybe i was bringing a new technique over to the dulcimer. Of course it makes sense that a great player has already thought of it and developed mastery with it. I gave up pretty soon on the colored pencil so it's awesome to see what a skilled version of what i was trying looks like. Personally I found it very difficult to utilize the percussion while still keeping the sound sweet and pretty and I made a striker wrapped in felt, which i found gives the dulcimer a sound almost like a piano.