Whoops, I did notice that they were bones and still typed spoons for some reason lol. Similar, but still quite different. Either way, sounds like a cool group, as most lovers of folk music and instruments tend to be.
Looks like a lot of fun. I see that you are playing harmonica and spoons at the same time, which is no small feat, and the result is great.
Cool to see so many people coming together and playing different instruments in the second and third clip. Seems like a great time.
In 50 years of building dulcimers, one of the saddest things I’ve seen is how new builders will “borrow” other’s work and claim it as their own.
Skip, in his original post he said "I wish it were a tad longer so that I could get the best of DAA and DAD tuning, allowing me to walk down the fretboard on the melody string alone." Which i assume means that he wants notes below A to be available on the melody string.
@Barnjam you might consider trying to tune your instrument D3A3D3, (you will need to put a bass string where you would normally put a melody string) such that the melody string is the same pitch as the bass string, which would allow you to have a range of D3 to D5 on the melody string, assuming 2 octaves of frets. This would allow you to play "melodies on the bass string" using the first octave of frets on the melody string, and the second octave of frets will correspond to the notes you would normally get on the melody string. It may be the easiest solution, if you like the feel of it, and that gives you the notes you want.
It means you asked a good question that hits on interesting ideas. :)
It may be helpful to know: what exactly is the range of notes that you would like to have access to on your melody string?
What this demonstrates, I think, is that the wideness of the fretboard and the distance between strings is an important variable, perhaps more important that VSL even, and yet it is one that gets little attention either by builders or by players.
I personally would have no use for such a dulcimer, but it is theoretically possible to build one.
Does that "Stringjoy" Tension Calculator tell you when one of its suggestions would likely result in a string that breaks, or a string that is too slack? I doubt it includes such useful info. I suspect that like any non-human, all it will inform you of is what numbers are correct for the calculation.
I'm a bit confused by all of this. Fourteen frets is two diatonic octaves, D to D or A to A or whatever, regardless of the VSL. A longer VSL [fretboard] just increases the distance between frets. It doesn't 'add' any any notes.
Strumelia could you please elaborate on that?
The "stringjoy string tension calculator" says that a 35" VSL tuned to D4 with a 0.007 gauge string (lowest Ive seen in an ernie ball pack) will have ~13 lb of tension.
I think an important question is: do you prefer to only play on the melody string, or would you prefer to be able to fret all three strings?
If you're only fretting the melody string out of compromise, then a wider fretboard could solve your problem.
A dulcimer does not have all the frets of the chromatic scale, which is why the major scale must start on either the open string for DAd (1-5-8) or the 3rd fret for DAA (1-5-5) if you want to have all the notes in the major scale. For this reason, if you wanted to tune the melody string lower than A and still get all the notes of the D major scale, you would have to add extra frets. For example, if you tuned the instrument DAG, there would be no fret for C#, unless you add a 3.5 fret. You could potentially set the fret layout to allow your melody string to be tuned to any note, though it would look strange for some. Or with a chromatic instrument, you could just tune it any old way and always have all the needed frets for your D major scale.
It's possible to tune the melody string lower and add extra frets, but could lead to it's own problems, like if you wanted to play melody on the bass string, your melody string would no longer be a harmonious drone to accompany it.
I see that the dulcimer you showed a photo of has two full octaves of frets plus 3 frets of the third octave. If you have large fingers, it will definitely be difficult to try to fret in those teeny tiny spaces, and if you add more frets to the high end, the gaps between them only get smaller.
The longer the VSL, the more space you'll have between frets in that third octave, but that can only help so much.
You want to angle the slot so that the high point is on the bridge side to preserve the VSL.
I'm glad you spotted that Skip,
with that in mind, the dime is not needed and only the nickel is necessary, as Ken said. Apologies for the confusion.
There are three main factors to consider when intonating a dulcimer, the height of the nut, the height of the bridge, and the position of the bridge.
There is a simple system for intonating a dulcimer which is called the "nickel and dime method" where a dime is placed on the fingerboard just above the first fret so that the side of the dime is touching the nut-facing side of the first fret, so the dime is between the first fret and the nut. A nickel is placed on top of the 7th fret and is between the 7th fret and the string.
Generally, the nut and bridge should be lowered until the string is just barely touching the face of both of the dime and the nickel.
If your fret wire is taller than average, the dime may not be useful, since the fretwire may be taller than the dime. If that's the case, it may be a little bit more complicated. Using a dime only works for short fret wire, such as a mandolin or ukulele fret wire, and if the instrument has guitar or jumbo fret wire, then determining correct intonation at the nut might be more difficult.
If you set the string height or "action" using this method and all goes well, but your instrument is still not well intonated, then you may need to adjust the position of the bridge itself.
To do this, tune the string up to the desired note, and then using a tuner check the intonation at the octave fret.
If the octave fret is sharper than the root note, then the bridge needs to be moved closer toward the nut. If the octave fret is flatter than the root note, then the bridge needs to be moved further away from the nut.
I hope this helps
Nate
Very interesting. I have seen them a handful to times at Hindu weddings, where the playstyle is QUITE different, and is much more energetic and rhythmic, but it works surprisingly well as a drone accompaniment as well. Makes sense since you don't actually have to control the speed or force of the bellows at all, so you just flip a switch to the chord you want and don't have to worry about feel or rhythm. Pretty clever.
Straight forward, yet ambiguous. Does a presence of many overtones make an instrument sound
More "clear" or "full"
More "nasal" or "broad"
More "refined" or "ambiguous"
More "bright" or "warm"
All the words convey opposite meanings, but "overtones" are used to describe both.
On the dulcimer, what does the term "overtone" say about the tone?
If the bridge is being held in place by string pressure, rather than being glued down or in a slot, then intonation could be almost completely fixed by simply sliding the bridge about 1/16" to 1/8" closer to the nut.
If the bridge is fixed in place, then I would agree that it's not worth messing with.
If you are interested in making the simple adjustment to the bridge Id be happy to explain further or give more specific advice based on your VSL and string gauge, but really just scooting it about 1/16th of an inch closer to the nut should mitigate any intonation issues.
I agree with Dusty, though, that it may sound just fine as it is, and there is no harm in putting lighter strings on the instrument to find out.
Either way, its fun to have different dulcimers with different ranges, so whether you leave it or change it, you cant go wrong. :)
I have a beautiful David Lynch baritone dulcimer that doesn’t get much use. Can I restring as a standard without affecting intonation? Thanks!
I would suspect that the taller end goes under the bass string as well, for the reason Wally mentioned. A lot of times, I've found that the bass string has more wobble, and buzzes against the frets more easily, so I avoid the problem by setting it just a smidge higher and adjusting the bridge placement accordingly.
Your current set up has about 19-23 lb of tension per string. Strings that would give you a similar amount of tension at 22" would be ~0.030, ~ 0.019, and ~0.014.
Very cool looks super easy to use ill definitely check that out later. Thanks for showing this
Welcome Paul!
The photos you have shared are super cool and i look forward to your input.
How long have you been building instruments? The work you did looks terrific.
I have always loved fossils. My grandfather owned some land with a lot of slate and shale, and i used to have a lot of fun cracking them open.
Hope to see more creations,
Nate
Thanks, Nate. With only one exception, all the tunings I've used go low to high, which would eliminate some of those possibilities. The only exception was Eb D F# A.
A 6.5 is pretty much essential for Dad and other 1-5-8 tunings, but not needed for DAA tuning, and other 1-5-5 tunings.
In Dad tuning, the 6.5 fret corresponds to the note C#, which is an important part of the D major scale. If you're going to get a 6.5, I'd say a 13.5 is also good.
A 1.5 can also be nice, but anything more than that, I would recommend holding off until you actually have a reason to want them.
The question about temperament is pretty complicated, so this answer will be over simplified. The majority of dulcimers with a 6.5 fret are equal temperament, unless they specifically say otherwise. The goal of ET is to make compromises so that none of the intervals between notes are particularly dissonant in any key. It's basically just taking all the intervals and averaging them out to get tones that are generally inoffensive in any key. When a builder chooses a temperament other than ET, the goal is to give certain specific intervals extra harmony at the sacrifice of other intervals. Usually, this means placing the frets in such a way that is optimized for one specific key. This can lead to dissonance when chording and especially when using a capo. However, temperaments like just intonation and meantone sound GREAT in melody drone style.
I don't think the difference between 24 and 26.5 is that huge. Long stretches like a 1-2-4 chord might be about 1/2 inch further. I would say that hand stretching exercises may be a good way to overcome that extra little bit of reach you'll need.
Personally, I prefer shorter VSL instruments for chording, but when I do play longer dulcimers, it doesn't take too long for my hands to get used to reaching just a little bit further.
Could what appears to be a slot near the 6.5 just be discoloration of the wood? In the close up photo it doesnt look like those 'slots' go all the way across the width of the fingerboard. The dulcimer looks great, so it's hard to believe the original builder just left the slot unfilled. You could always put a fret in it and call it "microtonal" lol.
In reference to bowed dulcimers, I know there are a lot of types and styles. Personally I just add a radius to the bridge, with the middle string being physically higher than the melody and bass, and call it good there. It makes the intonation a bit trickier, but it solves the challenge of bowing (or plucking) the middle string individually.
I would think that overall, a radiused fingerboard on dulcimer would have a small benefit, but wouldn't be worth the effort. When I made one just out of curiosity, I found that since I wasn't already used to barring chords, it didn't have any immediate benefit for me.
Personally, i tried making a radiused fretboard once years ago. As far as I understand it, the main benefit of a radiused fretboard is that its easier to apply pressure for things like barre chords. I dont think this matters as much on a dulcimer as on a guitar, since it takes a lot less force to fret a dulcimer in the first place.
Alex, i think it definitely depends on what kind of music is being played. Personally, i dont play very complex rhythms or strum patterns, and to me it feels like my fretting hand is dong a lot more precise movement compared to the strumming hand. It makes sense to me, though, that plucking would be more strenuous than fretting at a high level.
Very true Alex!
I find that many combinations of root notes tend to just make things more confusing, which is a fun opportunity to find something new.
Most of the time, I will alter the tuning in order to achieve specific chords and fit them together into a track, but many of these alternate tunings are fairly difficult for me to play a full song in. Again, it's just an opportunity to try a little harder.
Since I build all my dulcimers, $20 is about my average cost with some being closer to 5 and the most being about 30.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, and I have no doubt you will provide more creative music with creative tunings.
I hope you have a great day as well,
Nate
Personally, i have a massive pile of strings and quite a few dulcimers(8 at the moment), so I often experiment with different string gauge combinations, each combination having a different range of possible tunings. Alternate tunings are a fun way to keep myself engaged when I'm getting a little bored and don't know what to do about it.
I would assume that you can probably do a lot more with them than I could, given your background.
If each string can be tuned down 3 steps or up 2 steps, that is 6 possible notes per string, which I think amounts to 1200 possible combinations on a 4 string dulcimer. Then it's just a matter of finding the ones that are actually useful lol. I personally am a big fan of ADAd and DAdf#, but as you said, there are so many options.
Richard, I am very paranoid when tuning a new instrument and I wear protective goggles when I do, but I have a lot of dulcimers with old strings and I am always worried that one will break while Im playing. Unfortunately goggles arent always an option, so I'm mostly trying to gauge what a worst case scenario would look like.
Robin, I could definitely imagine that it hurts. I personally take a mechanical pencil and scribble some graphite into the slots before putting the strings on, and this helps a lot with friction at the nut.
Jamie, that is good to hear, and I imagine that where it whips is somewhat erratic, so I hope that stays consistent for you. It's good to hear that nobody has an instance of being whipped in the face.
Thanks all
Welcome Alex, glad to have you here. I enjoyed the song you posted.
To answer your questions
1: There are some players I've seen that don't seem to use their thumb very much at all, unless it's to make a stretch while holding a chord shape. Stephen Siefert and Aaron O'rourke come to mind. It does look more comfortable on the wrist.
2: I am right handed, and I've often felt like the left hand is doing harder work than the right on a dulcimer. It might be an advantage to play right handed if you're left handed.
3: I do. It can be a good source of inspiration. I usually stick to 1-5-8 tunings in various keys, but I've recently been playing more 4 string, which opens up a lot more opportunities.
4: I learned dulcimer with tab, since there is such a huge number of tabs available. Staff notation is a bit intimidating for me, especially when I change keys or modes. I only use it when I have to, like if I'm playing with others and they are using it.
Hey folks. I use pretty heavy gauge strings on my dulcimers and don't change them very often. So far, I haven't had a string break while playing, but I've always been kind of paranoid, since my face is directly above the strings. My fear is that the string will snap, whip up, and hit me in the eye faster than I can blink. I'm just hoping for some anecdotes about strings breaking while playing: if anyone has ever been hurt by one and where the strings tend to go when they do break.
Thanks,
Nate
That makes sense wally, thanks.
It seems there are a lot of different aspects of the build that could affect how it handles tension. Bracing, full length fretboard vs discontinuous, whether the fingerboard is hollowed, how deep the strumhollow is, how thin the boards are, how high you keep your tension, etc.
It makes sense to me that the ends of the fingerboard would slowly and gradually bow upward, but with a quality dulcimer it sounds like the consensus is that it's negligible.
"but, in my opinion, the minute aspects of wooden bodies' shapes are better preserved if string tension it maintained. "
Im curious to know more about this Wally. Are you basically saying that the wood "settles" when its kept under the correct amount of tension? Or that the changes in tension would put more stress on the wood cells/finish? Both of those would make sense to me.
Id say that detuning the strings by just a little bit is a good idea. While some instruments seem to hold up really well to warping over time...other fare less well. Damage from tension, sunlight, or moisture would be cumulative over a long time. So overall, I'd say that you dont need to be overly concerned, but it's probably better to store it with the strings somewhat detuned if youre not planning on playing it for a while. It would probably only make a small difference over a long time though, if at all.
That is the same impression I got, matt. On very simple instruments you often see these types of screws that are meant to hold the tension of the string, and typically they cannot support more than 10 lb at most
Anything beyond that starts to dig into the plastic
That is such a neat dulcimer. The craftsmanship and detail is insane, and the woods are so beautiful.
