Forum Activity for @royb

Susie, I have several guitars and ukuleles on my walls, but only two dulcimers. I guess I need to remedy that!

Quote:The interesting thing is that virtually identical dulcimers from the same builder -- dimensions, materials, finish etc -- can, usually do, sound different from each other.

Ken, this last part of your response is interesting.  Guitar manufacturers, I believe, go for the opposite.  Taylor in particular, from what I understand, with its increased standardization and automated processes, strives for identical instruments of a certain model.  If you purchase X model guitar, you should expect a certain feel and sound out of it.  Smaller luthier shops of course are different, as would be individual dulcimer makers.  I like the idea of each instrument having its own individual voice and character.

Just a general observation about my experiences so far.  I have an old, handmade 28.5" VSL 3 string instrument tuned Aeolian at CGA#, and an Apple Creek 24" VSL, 4 string instrument tuned Ionian at DAA.  I play noter drone on each, lighter, smaller noter on the Apple Creek, heavier on the other.

Despite playing the same way on each instrument, same pick, same type of rhythm, they sound like two entirely different instruments.  Roughly like playing my guitar and my ukulele.  Nothing wrong with this at all, I don't think, just an unexpected observation.  Is this common?  Thanks.

I did make a note out of one of them, Skip. Hollowed it out, too.

Ken, I considered asking for culms from neighbors when I made Native American style flutes, but I'd assume fresh bamboo would take a year to dry, before it's usable?

[quote="Banjimer"]

Search on E-Bay for "turkey call striker dowels".  They are available in a variety of hardwoods, can be purchased pre-rounded, and cost about $10.00 for ten dowels - each dowel is about 5-6 inches long.

Well, Banjimer, I have to tell you - I went ahead and ordered three purple heart turkey call striker dowels on Ebay.  They arrived today, and I'm very pleased with the size, shape and feel.  Very hard wood, right diameter for me (5/16"), and a bit over 5" long.  I also found demonstrations of their real use on YouTube.  Amazing.  Thanks again for the suggestion.

I'm more of a folkie.  Never really into heavy metal :)

Yes, I think I'll stick with wooden noters, at this point.  It would be interesting to see a bolt noter in action, though.

I pretty much mastered that on guitar, but the noter is completely different, of course.

That is something I've been working on, Strumelia. Trying to see how much pressure is really needed to get a clear sound.

Ok. I think you mean I don't push the string down onto the actual fret, but just to the left of it? That I know from playing guitar.

Skip, you lost me with that one.

[quote="Ken Longfield"]

My current favorite noter is the handle of a foam brush. I cut the foam off the handle after the paint hardened. It works very well for me.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Ken, I've been doing some painting around the house, and had the same thought.  Just a little too wide in diameter for me, though (maybe the handles are different diameters?  I'll have to check that out).  They do seem to be a very soft wood, however.

[quote="Skip"]

Last nite I happened to think that anything you can cut to size and hold onto would work, screwdriver, chunk of a broom/mop/garden tool, tablespoon, big nail in a piece of wood or file handle, etc. I suppose some would work better than others.

Skip, I've seen that idea other places, too.  However, I'm hesitant to use something too hard or abrasive on my 'vintage' instrument, for fear of damaging the fretboard or the staple frets.  So I'm needing a balance between a noter that won't hurt the fretboard yet won't sustain cuts from the pressure of the strings.  The search goes on.  I am thinking seriously about Banjimer's turkey call strikers.  Being a city guy I never knew they existed! (Don't ask me how else I thought turkeys were caught) Ebay does have them in several hard woods, for reasonable prices, and 5/16" diameter may be a good size for me. 

[quote="Ken Longfield"]

Roy, I don't know if you ever go over to Downingtown, but if you do there is a Woodcraft store there. It carries maple dowels. If I ever get down your way again, I have lots of different sizes and species of dowel material I can bring along for you to try.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Thanks, Ken.  I do see their website online - there's a store in Downingtown and one in New Castle, DE, both about the same distance from me.  I'll keep that in mind as a source of wood.  

Also, I do hope to see you again sometime, maybe for a longer visit and song swapping.

[quote="Banjimer"]

Search on E-Bay for "turkey call striker dowels".  They are available in a variety of hardwoods, can be purchased pre-rounded, and cost about $10.00 for ten dowels - each dowel is about 5-6 inches long.

Banjimer, I thought you were kidding, but you are absolutely right!  Not much "call" (couldn't help myself) for those around my way, outside Philly!  They are a bargain for our purposes.  I may give them a try.  Thanks.

That's very kind of you, Ken.

Neither Home Depot nor Lowes near me have dowels of maple. I'm actually ok with what I have, for now. Enjoy your trip!

Rob, I actually tried a chopstick.  Too small for my liking.  Sorry about your river cane noter and lanyard.  Sounded like it was just the thing!

Skip, I could never get used to a slide while playing guitar, no matter which finger or what size I used.  Don't think it would work for me for a noter.

I did soak my oak dowel noters in Howard Butcher Block Conditioner.  Contains mineral oil, carnauba wax and beeswax (Robin's prior comment about beeswax made me think of it).  They seem to slide a bit smoother now.  I know oak isn't as hard or long lasting as a noter as other woods, but I now have 15 noters of 3/8" or 1/4" size, homemade, aside from my original 2, so I should be good for awhile.

And Ken, the pen blanks would be an excellent source of raw materials for me if I had a belt sander or any kind of carving skills!  As it is, I'm barely able to cut the dowels straight.

Thanks to all, as usual, for the helpful suggestions!

Skip, I had read about that when making my bamboo flutes.  Problem is I'd probably fire harden my apartment in the process!

Thanks Ken. Yes I have your booklet. One of my standard go to references. I'll look into tung oil. Hardest wood that was readily available was oak.

Robin, I've also created a noter out of a slice of bamboo, a la Strumelia's video, showing how your thumb or finger can fit into the hollow of it.  I have been having trouble with hands lately, too, part of the reason I'm moving away from guitar and toward dulcimer.  Still trying to find the best and most comforatble way to hold the noter (thumb over, finger over, sideways, knuckle against the fret board, etc.).  I'm pretty sure I'm still pressing down too hard on the strings, though.  Trying to see how lightly I can do that, and still get a sound.

Dan, I have two river cane Native American flutes made by an excellent maker in Alabama, so I'm familiar with the material.  My bamboo noter slides well but feels very hard on my fingers for some reason.  

Robin, maybe I'll try beeswax, or a similar material.  I have some Howard butcher block conditioner that I've used on my bamboo flutes, so I thought maybe I'd try that.

I've been trying out different size and material noters, mostly handmade.  I have a 1/4", 4.5" long noter than came with my Apple Creek dulcimer, and I've cut a 3/8", 4.5" long hollow bamboo noter.  I've now made several of those two sizes out of oak dowels.  However, they don't slide as well up and down the fret board as the original two.  Should I be treating the dry wood in some way - oil, stain, paint, etc.?  (I've also watched Strumelia's excellent review of different kinds of noters - wish I had the carving skills to make some like the ones she shows).  

Also, I'm frankly allergic to spending $7-$10 or more for a commercially made plain 5" piece of dowel, when I can buy a 36" long piece of wood for $1-$2.50, out of which I could make several. :)

Thanks for ALL of that, jost.  I have been playing more (my wife finally noticed, so that's a telltale sign right there).  The disadvantage I have with notation, music theory, tabs, etc. is my inability to read music.  I can pick out notes on a scale if you give me enough time, and I can see Jean Ritchie's indications of how to tune the dulcimer in her book on each song, but I can't read music well enough to make sense of anything else.  I've learned guitar ("cowboy chords"), ukulele and Native American flute mainly by ear, and am old enough to have picked up the guitar during the folk scare of the early sixties, giving me a wealth of tunes in my head that I'm beginning to be able to pick out by ear.

As I'm finally beginning to master tuning with wooden pegs, and figuring out which strings and tuning sound good on my instrument, I'm "worrying" less and playing more, as has been suggested.  Thanks

Related to my original question, I've been trying different tunings, and especially different combinations of notes, high or low, to see how the instrument reacts.  It appears, at least to my ears, that the problem with the melody string sounding sharp or flat disappears somewhat the higher I tune the strings (at the moment, 12, 14, and an unwound 20).  Presently in DAA, with very little problem noted, and I think the instrument sounds better there, than my original CGG, and definitely better than if I try to go any lower.  I don't know enough about sound dynamics, but I do know from guitar playing that there is sometimes a "sweet spot" in the way of string gauge and tuning on any particular instrument, depending on size and wood used.  I believe the dulcimer top on this one is spruce (see attached photo).  Am I on the right path, here?

As mentioned earlier, I can't lower the bridge at all, and my work on the nut appears to have given the strings at that end a somewhat decent height.  Thanks

dulcimer-b.pdf - 429KB

[quote="Strumelia"]

Of course, if you can't sing either of those songs, you're in trouble. lolol

Well then bim-bim-BOM wouldn't help either!

Thanks John.  An interesting alternative to bim-bim-BOM!

Thanks Robin. Interesting. I have Kevin Roth's two record instructional but not the booklet that would have come with it.

Robin, Homespun Instruction? Are you talking about a book or recording?

Thanks Lisa. I agree with everything you wrote!

Thanks.  I've probably read Jean Ritchie's book about 4 times now, emphasizing different aspects each time.  I've also enjoyed her "Dulcimer People".  I'll check out Cripple Creek Dulcimer (but don't tell Ken Hulme - he wants me to put down the books and play more ; )

Dusty, thanks for your very clear explanation.  I may get around to switching string gauge order at some point.

Thanks for your advice, Ken.  I am playing a lot, experimenting with tunings, getting frustrated with my old, wood peg tuners and my (continuously) sharp melody string, both of which I've mentioned elsewhere.  I do have a few songs down in Ionian, and a couple in Mixolydian (although without the 6+ fret that's a bit harder).  I switch back and forth between the 1969 model and my smaller Apple Creek, and am trying different string gauges on both.

However, I am who I am, so when I get into a new hobby or subject, I try to gobble up as much as I can on its history, background, methods, etc.  I am grateful that the dulcimer lends itself to initially sounding decent and playing tunes without much if any instruction or theory, except for YouTube videos (kudos again to Strumelia, and to Bing Futch, among others).

Thanks again. 

Just to beat a dead horse, I've confirmed that Jean Ritchie's book did originally come out in 1963, and John Pearse published a like titled instruction book in 1970.  I am enjoying the 'folksy', personalized writing of Robert Force's book, however.

And Skip, I do understand that the note order doesn't change with the VSL being longer, but his string gauge recommendations and low and high chart for each don't work for me, I don't think.  Thanks

My poor beginner brain is exploding!  I've hardly learned to tune and play in Ionian and Mixolydian, and still can't wrap my head around the 1-5-5 etc. system, and now you're talking about reverse tunings? :)  I did notice that the book bases everything on a 24" VSL (which concept I was able to transfer from guitar scale length).  My large, older dulcimer is 28.5", as I've mentioned, so it's almost a baritone in VSL, if not build.  I've had to translate some concepts in the book to this longer, larger instrument.

I've been reading the book online, but sometimes you just need to hold a book in your hands, so I ordered a used copy.

Lastly, I was curious about the authors' comment about a lack of instruction books partially motivating them to write theirs.  I haven't read the whole book yet, but didn't they read Jean Ritchie's Dulcimer Book when they started on their journey?  I believe it first came out in 1963 (?), so it should have been readily available when they were writing theirs.  Maybe I should read the site that Strumelia suggested, about the writing of the book.

To return to my original question, concerning Ionian tuning and In Search of the Wild Dulcimer, I just found my answer, as to why Robert Force said Ionian doesn't sound good in open tuning.  At the back of the book he's got a "Range and Tuning Guide".  Under Ionian, he lists the notes as CFCC, DGDD or EAEE (with doubled melody strings).  My understanding from every other source is that Ionian would be CGGG, DAAA, etc..  None of his other named modes matches my understanding of the Ionian intervals.  Don't know where he got this one, but it would explain his opinion about open tuning in his version of this mode.  Now we can all sleep tonight :)

You know, I have to tell all of you - I also belong to the Acoustic Guitar Forum, and this group is a lot better, with way more enjoyable interaction.  Maybe dulcimer players do actually have more fun! And I am enjoying how my original Ionian tuning question has morphed into selling buttons at zero profit and building dulcimers for the experience, with "meager" return.

[quote="Strumelia"]

I really think there should be a button one could wear that just says: bim bim BOM.

I'd wear one!

[quote="ocean-daughter"]

I think some of the dulcimer renaissance pioneers developed their own ways of thinking and talking about theory and dulcimer playing.  For instance Force and d'Ossche playing the dulcimer with it "sideways" on a strap, though they still fretted and strummed "overhand" like lap players would.  And I've heard people refer to tunings as "AAD" or "CAD", treble to bass.

Thanks, I'm starting to figure that out, as I read more about the dulcimer, especially from older sources.  I did note that Jean Ritchie, for one, would indicate GGC, where today we'd say CGG.

Strumelia, I think the Seagull Merlin was developed for guitar players who wanted to try playing dulcimer.  I've tried them in the past, but never got comfortable with one, despite my years on guitar.  Somehow, I've taken pretty easily to noter dulcimer playing, with the instrument on my lap, Jean Ritchie style (and many thanks for your YouTube videos for tutorials).

I actually have two instruments - the 1969 28" VSL and an Apple Creek ACD100 24".  The latter has the 6+ fret, which, mainly tuning in Ionian and playing songs from Pete Seeger's American Favorite Ballads, I haven't had much use for as yet.  That book guided me through my first years on guitar, so I'm back to it now for dulcimer.

Thanks, Skip.  No need to hide.  "The confusion I'm feeling, ain't no time can tell".  That's exactly why I started the thread in the first place.  I did write to Bob Force, and await his response.