Forum Activity for @strumelia

Well, it's really cool (and challenging!) to practice on both tabor pipe and penny whistle, I gotta say.  

Though they have different fingering patterns to play the same tunes, there is a sort of common thread of logic between the two.  A recorder on the other would be completely different fingering learning curve.  But tabor pipe and PW do follow the same 'increment hole/pressure logic'.  That's is a very inadequate way to try and describe it, sorry.

But what it comes down to is that I think this is do-able.  When I can play a real simple tune on the tabor pipe, I can 'sort of' stumble through it on the pennywhistle, which has more holes available before blowing up into a higher register.  Very fun to compare the two.  I have the plastic G tabor pipe and the metal G pw (both 17" long), and a metal C pw.

I'm finding it easier to get clearer tones on the plastic tabor pipe, but not really sure why yet.  Less holes to worry about leaking air from maybe? 

It's a bear to wrestle through all this and sooo many wrong and squeaky notes.  But I really look forward to my practice sessions and that's the true test- am I having fun? ... yes!

Sheryl... you seem to know me too well.  heheh

hmmm

Here are a few instruments I will probably never ever play:

piano or organ

Highland bagpipes

hammered dulcimer

autoharp

standup bass

guitar

trumpet

marimba

Jim, that's so clever to 'trick' the kids into helping work the limberjack.      

You need a one-handed concertina & tabor.

Fun to see a little mini flurry of posts here       Terry , the vision of you marching around your house with pipe and tabor while your wife perhaps takes cover someplace gives me a good chuckle.      I try to take full advantage when Brian goes out to mow the grass or on an errand... I rush to do a practice session as soon as he's out the door!   lolol   The notes of these pipes and whistles are pretty good at traveling through walls and even floors.  The high notes are piercing indoors, and my neighbors are too close for me to practice in my yard.  At this point in my playing i wouldn't want to cause suffering for wild birds either.  Or I might attract the unwanted attention of chicken hawks.  ;)

Jim , I can't believe how you did that to make a penny whistle into a tabor pipe!  Very inventive!!

Did you calculate where to position the thumb hole?  Because the thumb hole placement is very specific to give certain notes, and your thumb hole looks to me to be much closer to the mouthpiece than my tabor pipe's thumb hole is located in relation to the two top holes.  But the proof of the pudding is- are you able to play tunes on it, like Mary had a little lamb etc?  Does it jump into the higher register where you need it to go to the next note?  I would 'think' that by design a PW would not be able to behave the same way as a tabor pipe, but if it works then I am amazed and very impressed!

I think you could easily use that frame drum as your tabor.  You could either drill a couple of holes in the rim and hang it over your arm (don't make the strap too long), or sit to play and hold it vertically on your lap using your arms and legs somehow.  I recommend a short drumstick with a padded tip, especially if practicing indoors.  If you want to beat the drum with your right hand, then you'll need to hold and play the pipe with your left hand.  While it might be good at some outdoor festival, I hate the sound of my snare while practicing alone indoors, so I beat on the other side of my two-sided tabor drum, and I tucked a little folded piece of chamois under the snare thread to keep it quiet.

I might be wrong, but I 'think' that on either a PW or tabor pipe, if you have a D pipe you can play in G, or D, or E minor.  I have a G tabor pipe only so far, and mostly I've been playing medieval and renaissance simple tunes in A minor.  But if I know the tune by ear, I can base it on the A minor key and work it out without having to find actual sheet music in the key my pipe is in.  Some accidentals (a sharp here and there in the minor key) I have found i can get by half covering a hole.  Using half holes gives you the ability to play in some other keys since you can then create sharps and flats as needed.  But this is mostly beyond my current level.  I do this stuff by hearing rather than by knowing music theory- I hear when I need a note to be a sharp in a certain part of a tune, and I experiment to see if I can make a sharped note with my fingering somehow. If there are several 'missing' notes I know I need to start the tune in a different key or home note (or else get a pipe in another key)...it feels kind of like the mountain dulcimer noter style playing that way!- find where the tune 'fits' on your fret board and start it there so you'll have the needed notes for that tune.   

One other thing I noticed-   I tend to practice for about 45 minutes or so.  When I practice every day I don't notice my progress as much.  When I skip a day or two once a week, when I pick up the pipe again I can actually see and feel the progress since the last session.  hmm...I like that!  lol

Terry, thanks!  As my fotmd "Tabor Pipe Buddy" I know you understand and know first hand about the wacky learning curve on this crazy instrument duo...    Your moral support and feedback have helped keep me moving forward on this pipe & tabor project.

My mother hen kicks in:  Terry please keep your practice sessions very short - like maybe just 10 minutes for any one practice- I don't want you to aggravate your hand pain!

I couldn't resist and I have a couple of penny whistles coming in a day or two now as well.  Guess I'm just nuts but oh well.   I have to wait a month anyway before that tabor pipe maker gets back from his trip and then he can make me my second tabor pipe- a wooden one this time in high D probably.  Meanwhile I can continue on my plastic G tabor pipe & drum, and see if I can figure out these penny whistles as well.  I think the wait will do me good actually- it'll test my commitment. 

fun fun fun.....     

Lots of great info coming up here- thanks everyone!

I did order a couple of pennywhistles, since I'm learning the tabor pipe which seems to have a somewhat similar setup (in some ways).  Maybe taking on more than I can manage, but at least I won't go broke doing it.     

Sandi, I'm sensing two different issues in your question:

1) the ability to memorize how to play the tune with your fingers, and/or to memorize the lyrics,
and
2) the ability to play the music with your fingers if it's dark and you cannot see the fretboard at all.

I find it impossible to play either dulcimer or banjo in the dark without being able to see my fretboard at all...even if I have the tune memorized.  I think if I were playing solely chords on a guitar it might be easier and more automatic, but when playing melody notes that go all over the place it's proven to be more than I can handle when playing in dark campsites.  Some folks say you can get good at it by practicing at home with a blindfold etc, but that's something I myself am not going to devote practice time to.   This said, you might find you have few problems with playing in the dark, so you might want to experiment a bit with it.

Thanks friends!  
The people on this site are so great in encouraging beginners!  

Friends, any discussion about buying/selling and prices etc should be done either via Private Notes or in the For Sale Forum.  To send private messages, you'll need to first 'follow' each other by clicking 'follow' on the other person's profile page.

Thanks!

Thanks Lexie!  I should have included the description I wrote for the video on Youtube, which has the info about the holes as well as other info:

This is a French 'branle'/dance tune composed by Thoinot Arbeau (real name Jehan Tabourot) in the late 1500s.  It's called Branle des Lavandieres, or Washerwoman's Branle. You can easily find sheet music for it online in various keys. Branles (braules, brawls) were simple folk dances each paired with their specific tune.  You can see youtube examples of dancers today who still enjoy them.  I'm finding traditional old branles to be particularly well suited to beginner tabor pipe, because they tend to have a limited range of notes and thus accessible for a beginner.  I also find them to be pretty tunes, from a period in musical history that I enjoy.

At this point I've been learning the pipe and tabor for only about six weeks, so lots of squeaks and notes out of tune- I have no 'technique' at all yet. It's quite a challenge, especially when paired with a drum- feels like a lot going on at the same time.  But I wanted to put up a beginner level example of where i am so far.  If I get better at it, it'll be fun to look back on this video. 

The pipe here is a 17" long Susato brand plastic low G tabor pipe- my first pipe.  Like pennywhistles, most tabor pipes are in higher keys and are shorter- the commonest being in high D, just as the most common tin/penny whistle is in high D.  The longer the pipe, the further apart the holes are, so it does get a bit harder to make the stretches if you have small hands.  There is what's called the 'piper's grip' for low pipes where you alter your hand position to make it easier.

The 'tabor' is a 9" sized two-sided tabor drum easily found online. It's made to be lightweight so as to hang on the arm.

Tabor pipes have only 3 holes- one is a bottom thumb hole, and two others on top.  Your ring and pinky fingers are then used simply to hold the bottom of the pipe so as not to drop it.  To rise to the next higher notes one after you run out of finger holes (which happens pretty quickly), one uses more air pressure to make the next higher jump for more notes.  

The reason for all this is to be able to play a pipe with only one hand, which allows you to also play a drum (a 'tabor') at the same time with your other hand. This pipe and tabor combo was very common in medieval/renaissance times.  After almost disappearing altogether, the pipe and tabor has been revived somewhat in modern times by English Morris dancers and musicians.

I suspect if you are familiar with playing the pennywhistle you can pick up the tabor pipe without too much trouble.  The tabor pipe being the first woodwind/flute/whistle/pipe instrument I've ever tried, I feel like a real beginner.   =8-*  But I'm definitely having fun!

Ok, so today I bowed under pressure and forced myself to record a simple tune I've been working on with my pipe & tabor.  I'm not posting it 'officially' or publicly...it makes me cringe...lol.  But it should show up here in this thread and be watchable when you click it.  If not, let me know.

Squeaks and painful intonation and all... here is Washerwoman's Branle, a dance tune from the 1500s:

John, do you mean in high D? (not low D)

John, can you outline the differences between Native American flutes and pennywhistles, assuming two that are in the same or similar key/size ?

Hellooooo.....  Anybody here still active and playing their pennywhistles?  

I suggest you have him just cut to the chase and build four of these 3-flute stands.  

Yeah I've been applying some of that there Coordinate Cream on my face every evening, but not sure if it's helping.

I think  blowing Aunt Rhodie on my thumb and patting my belly at the same time would be a piece of cake compared to this tabor pipe/drum stuff.  It's tough!       But I'm still making progress and practicing almost every day.  I never thought that in my 60s I could take up a woodwind instrument at ALL...so I'm pretty pleased that it seems like a do-able thing with enough work if I keep at it. The main thing is that i'm really enjoying the learning process, struggle and all.  

I have no idea why they say that recorders and penny whistles are easy instruments to learn.   Nuts , I say!

I have a friend who is a jeweler/metalsmith who is a member of the Society for Creative Anachronism as well...he goes to their medieval events with the 14th century pendulum clocks he made completely by hand.  Very cool.

Very cool, Ken.  I love these old types of folk instruments.  Did you make these for yourself to play?

Is that fiddle-ish instrument intended to be played while fretting it with the fingers?  If so, how are you going to deal with the silk-wrapped string ends spilling over into the first and second fret range?  Or maybe you just didn't have long enough strings on hand for the moment and these are temporary strings?

I'm sad to hear that my pipe&tabor buddy Terry has been experiencing sever arthritis pain in his hands, and thus has to back off quite a bit.  Terry, you admit you were overdoing your practice sessions, so I hope things will improve if you cut back a great deal.  

I've had to skip my pipe/tabor practice on some days, depending on whether my schedule is real busy or not.  But I have to admit I really look forward to my more or less forty minute sessions now, because I'm slowly improving in playing the little simple folk tunes I've pulled together to practice on.  This weekend I dreaded picking it up because I had skipped 3 days in a row, but I was so delighted when I picked it up again to notice that I had slightly improved from my last time, rather than getting worse as I had feared.      Pretty soon I guess i'll make a little informal video demo with mistakes and all, and just post it here rather than publicly...no sense broadcasting my wrong notes to the whole world!  

I am thinking of getting a shorter/higher pipe soon, like Terry has.  My low G pipe is 17" long and thus the finger holes are pretty far apart and it's quite tricky to cover the holes cleanly while stretching my hand.

I'm really enjoying the learning process and struggle...the reward is great when hearing a passage come out prettily, and the drum is a perfect companion accompaniment when playing alone.  It's such a clever instrument pairing- the drum with the one-handed pipe!

Wow, no self control in this bunch!  

I still just have and play the two mountain dulcimers I bought like 19 and 17 years ago or so. 

I do have 9 banjos though.  Six of those are fretless. I occasionally buy or sell a banjo, but I've almost always floated somewhere in the 6-10 banjo range.  I do play them all and they serve a wide variety of different musical applications.

Question: are all NAFs in minor keys?  If so, is that because Native American music tends to be in minor keys?

Just wondering.

Most good violin fine tuners pull the end of the ball string to tighten/loosen it slightly.  However, these are 'inline' cheaper removable fine tuners.  Fine tuners of this type (which I have used on several various instruments at one time or another, as a last resort) will eventually create a weak spot in the string since they depend on their screw forcing a bend in the string to pull it tighter.  

If you find them useful then by all means keep them.  You'll need to figure out how they hook onto the string in a threading sort of way when you have to change a broken string.  Sometimes it's tricky to hook the string.  They are hooked only to the string, so they can also go flying when the string breaks and you might lose them on the grass that way. 

If you find the wooden tuners work great for you, then my personal advice would be to take these little contraptions off as the strings get replaced.  I have always found them to be way more trouble than they're worth.  That said, I think better violin fine tuners are great, but then you need a type of tailpiece they can be attached to, like here .

Dalton, just wanted to point you to a simple beginner video I made showing how to tune back and forth between the four most common modes, for noter style playing.  Notice that you'll only be re-tuning one string, not all of them...it's not as hard as you'd think:

http://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.com/2010/02/video-re-tuning-between-four-common.html

Ken, did you do that on purpose?  Rascal!

Good point KenH,

Usually I have the notes I need by retuning to the right mode for the tune, but 'sometimes'....if there's an odd note I don't have on the fret board --and assuming it's not an absolutely essential melody note-- it's usually quite do-able to either skip playing that one note or just play that phrase a little differently- simplify it so that note's not really needed.  Many of us do that sometimes anyway (on various instruments) if a particular note is very hard to finger or I can't get there in time or a phrase requires skilled gymnastics, etc.  Similar workarounds apply in chord style playing-  if a three finger chord is hard to stretch to or jump to- often one can make it a two finger chord instead...or simplify the phrase a little by leaving out a note or two and see how it sounds. Folk music tends to be very forgiving.  

"What Do Noter Players Do When Notes Are Not On The Melody String?"

...sometimes I go get them from my fretless banjo.  (sorry, couldn't resist!)  

Actually, Jean Ritchie had more than once described how to 'palm' the noter momentarily to fret another string if needed.  Remember that Farina saw a mountain dulcimer for the very first time at a NYC party where he watched Jean Ritchie playing.  He had never seen one before and was blown away by it.  She wrote that he asked her all about it at that party, and went home determined to get or make one.  I think he played guitar before that?

Pete with those marracas...lol

Sandi, you just cracked me up.   Too funny!    

Great thread!

I'd like to bring up two other points that may not have been mentioned yet-

1) I see a lot of beginner dulcimer players struggle with making chords- having a hard time both making the reaches and also with weak fingers and hands that don't effectively fret.  If you have this problem, be sure to check the ANGLE of your fingers as you fret .  Many beginners fret with their hands horizontally held low- like a pianist or like someone typing on a computer keyboard.  As any violin teacher will tell you, it's important to raise your hands up in an arch so that your fingers come down onto the strings from straight above and you use the tips of your fingers to fret effectively.  The mountain dulcimer makes this super easy because it lies flat and we fret it from above already.  Fingers and hands held low/flat/sideways and fretting with the fat pad of the fingers make weak sounds and can't make stretches as easily.  Read my blog post about " Lazy Fingers "  and see if you can improve your hand/finger position and angle.

2) I hope that everyone who is having a hard time making chord stretches is actually utilizing their thumb and their pinky as well?  I see some people playing chord style dulcimer using only two or three fingers of their left hand.  That really limits the notes you can reach... similar to typing with two fingers.
Guitar, mandolin, and banjo players usually do not fret notes with their thumbs.  But we mountain dulcimer players have a huge advantage there, because we don't need our thumbs to wrap around and hold up the neck of our instruments...instead our instrument lies right in our lap or on a table or stand and our entire left hand and all its 5 fingers are FREE to use in making chords and stretches.   Take advantage of this gift and USE your pinky and thumb for fretting too!   Do a few simple hand exercises every day to strengthen and stretch all your fingers- it works over time and really does make a difference.   

When recommending tune/tab books for jamming, personally I think it's always a good idea the specify whether the book is intended for dulcimer-only jams ...where most all tunes are played in the key of D and most often in DAd tuning (with or without capos), and presented in dulcimer TAB form.

Many dulcimer players tend to congregate with other dulcimer players for club meetings and festival jamming....but we should keep in mind that in the music scene in general, jams typically include various instruments and jamming is in various keys.

There are many great jamming books out there- like the 'Fake book" series, or "Sing Out" for example.  Those books are standard resources in folk jamming and can actually be used by people on various instruments, since they contain the simple melody in standard notation, the lyrics, and chord change indications of popular standard jamming songs, in the keys they might typically be played in by folk musicians.

It's always good to specify the format of the music in a music jam book, so one isn't surprised when it arrives in the mail and doesn't meet the intended need.  

Here's my two-sided 9" head Tabor drum.  I used chamois to cover the strap where it hangs over the arm, since the knotted rope is uncomfortable as is.  I also used a bit of chamois to pad the tip of the drumstick so it wouldn't be quite so loud when practicing in the house.      It's a great little drum for the money, very nicely made.  It could also be used for non-tabor music situations and festivities as well.

Thanks so much Sheryl- that makes perfect sense!  

Sheryl, that must have been soooo much fun for you!  Was this flute group just about Native American style flutes?- or were there regular classical type flutes, penny whistles, and recorders as well?

Forgive me for asking this question, but I'm curious- how do the folks there deal with the issue of various people trying out flutes on on display, with their mouths on them and all?  Or is everyone just not bothered much by it?

I got my tabor drum today (so fast!) and yes it is perfect!   Thank you Terry for advising me to get the smaller 9" one...it's just right for me and has a wonderful old tone, though naturally not as deep a tone as Terry's 12" drum.

I padded the end of the stick a little to mellow it when playing in the house.  (!)

It's a quality drum, two sided, and I'd recommend it to anyone wanting a drum for multi purposes.

I'm really excited.... but now my practice sessions become more challenging still... pipe AND tabor simultaneously... yikes!    

Terry says:

I'm here to tell someone out there, if you are a little bored, and seeking a new challenge, another adventure, then Pipe and Tabor might just fill this need.

Agreed...and it's FUN!  -but be forewarned, it's a pretty major learning curve, especially if you've never played a flute or whistle before.  

Well, it was nice of Terry to act as the 'trail blazer' and then advise me concerning the size of drum to order.  I did order the 9" tabor drum and look forward to it coming within a few days.  

It's two sided, and will look like this:

Such restraint!   lolol

Well, we know what the solution to that dilemma is, then.   

 Maybe you'd only have to pay 1 way shipping to exchange it for the 9" model?

Yes, I understand.  But even if it's 'general' considerations, that encompass a huge variety of different stringed instrument problems and considerations.  Each individual issue and case requires some explanation and also inspires discussion.

Hi Salt,

A couple of things-  That sounds like a wonderful guide, but would definitely require significant effort and expertise. Not every expert, builder, seller, or buyer would agree on the various issues it might get into.  

I think a defining buyer's guide like that would be great, but perhaps better written or hosted by someone on their own website, since FOTMD is not intended as a definitive knowledge resource ...but rather more as a social community. 

I created this particular forum where we are posting here ( Forum: Instruments- specific features, instruments, problems, questions ) as a place where these kinds of instrument problems or questions could be brought up individually as needed.  I'd rather that FOTMD not have a comprehensive (and interactive) outline that advises 'what to buy or avoid'...I can foresee too many potential problems.  It could be a terrific project for some experienced and enterprising builder to create on their own website however!