Forum Activity for @ken-hulme

GinaB -- the short answer is no, a short VSL will not  "bring both hands to the front of my body" -- unless your body is 24" wide!   The reason is, we strum the dulcimer mostly at one end, and fret mostly at the other end.  I have a couple hundred tunes in my repertoire and from experience, most tunes occur between frets 1-10, with occasional forays up to frets 12 and even 14. 

If you have trouble with the instrument bobbing up and down, moving around and such, the solution is probably to be found in how you're setting the dulcimer on your lap.     The first thing to do is get your knees far apart -- 16" or more apart.  T

The second thing is to angle the dulcimer across your body -- not square across, but angled, with the first fret (more or less) over your left knee (assuming you're right handed) and tucking the bridge (more or less) into your right hip.

Hard to take a picture of your own lap, but here you go.  The first photo shows my Bobby Ratliff Cumberland Model with a 20" VSL and you can see the first fret out over my left knee and the right end tucked into my hip.  I sit up. and don't hunch over, but I do look down at the fretboard often while I play.  

The second photo shows another Ratliff dulcemore, with a 26" VSL (the bridge is just out of picture on the right side.  Same wide stance.  Same 1st fret over the right knee.  Same right end tucked into my right hip.

However, in both cases I'm playing with my left hand moving from my left knee to the middle of my lap -- not from leg to leg.  

IMHO FB Marketplace is not a particularly good place to shop for dulcimers if you are inexperienced with them.  Neither is Goodwill.  Most of us who really care about our instruments would not sell there, I think.  

FYI the New Harmony Pudge has a 24"VSL, considered by many to be a most excellent length, and hardly too small for you.  I build and play a 24-25" VSL instrument as well as 28-30" instruments.  The McSpadden Ginger has a nominally 24" VSL and the same notion applies.   

IMHO, with your lack of experience you are fretting (all puns intended) far too much over the VSL.  After you've played everyday for 6 months, you'll have some idea of what  "too big" or "too small" mean to you personally.

What exactly is the issue with the tuners?  Are they too tight?  Or too loose and don't keep the strings in tune?  Have broken knobs?  We can talk you through fixing them if they are too tight or too loose.  No need to spend money when a quick fix with a screwdriver will do the job.

IMHO spending $200 to fix a $100 dulcimer is not worth it unless you happened to luck onto an historical instrument from a known master builder (it has happened, but rarely).  Spend the $200 on another instrument.  Keep you eyes open here for someone selling an instrument that you could become attached to, at a price you can afford!

As Richard sez, we can talk you through cleaning up the instrument you have, adjusting the tuners so they work as properly as possible, and other issues.  

As a new player I recommend you copy, print and read the following booklet I wrote a few years back for beginners called
I Just Got A Dulcimer, Now What?   It's an illustrated glossary of dulcimer terms, so we all speak the same jargon, plus answers to many beginner questions about tuning, playing, care and feeding.  Tips like how to never breaks another string when tuning...

Ken Hulme's "I Just Got A Dulcimer, Now What?" Article - Strumelia | fotmd.com

The Beginner Players Group here is the perfect place to ask beginner questions.  You actually have to Join the Group to read most posts and make your own posts there.  Start a new post with your question(s) rather than tagging in on someone else's post -- it will help others like you find the answers you asked for.  

The How To Start A Discussion instructions are in the very first post at the bottom of this string. 

Basically go to the Discussion area you want to start a new Discussion in, such as General Mountain Dulcimer Or Music Discussions.  At the top of that page, click on the + sign at the right of the name.   In the appropriate boxes, give the new Discussion a name and write a bit about what you want to discuss there.  Then click the Create Button.

Gina & Doug -- there IS a UK dulcimer organization -- it's been around for decades.  The group is called Nonesuch Dulcimer Club: www.dulcimer.org.uk   They can set you straight as to local players, activities, meet ups and such.

WHAT AN ODYSSEY!   Nearly perfect month in the UK  from the far south (Steyning on the coast of West Sussex) to Lincolnshire on the east coast.  Then up north beyond the northern tip of Scotland to the  Orkney islands, when humans first came to the UK tens of thousands of years ago.  Home to stone monuments, underground villages and religious centers as old or older than the pyramids and at least as impressive as Stonehenge.  From there driving diagonally Scotland to Oban on the west cost, down the The Great Glen (which includes Loch Ness).  Then diagonally the other way to Dunbar south of Edinburgh and on to the West March where my ancestors held sway around the towns of Coldstream, Kelso, Eyemouth and the stately homes/castles of Wedderburn, Duns, Marchemont and Hirsel (including the lands of the Blackadder branch of the family for you Rowan Atkinson fans).  After our Clan Gathering, we went south to Birmingham for a week or so before returning to the US.

Stain and lacquer or varnish are not the same things.  Lacquer or varnish provide a protective covering, which is clear or slightly red-golden in color.  Stain just colors the wood -- make your spruce look dark like oak or red like cherry or brown like mahogany.  Unless you have perfect pitch or extremely sensitive instruments you will never hear an effect that such tretments will have on the sound (at least until the finish gets 1/16" deep!).  

Played some Border Ballads in The Scottish Borders, it's true -- Hugh the Graeme (mentions Clan Hume), Kinmont Willie, Tramps & Hawkers, Lammastide,  Lock the Door Lariston and more...   Spent four nights in Wedderburn Castle and used their kitchen to cook breakfast for the 20 or so clansmen and women staying there with us (the others had to do with whatever the could).

Now I'm hunkered down to endure the coming of hurricane Ian.

"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...."  Almost everything went perfect -- flight over, visiting friends and family in Sussex and Lincolnshire, Orkney and the Scottish Borders. 

Our Clan chief, the 15the Earl Home passed away about 10 days before the Queen.  His son, Michael succeeded as 16th Earl, and Charles succeeded a King Charles III.  The Clan Gathering went really well, and our new Chief was able to attend even though he's a member of The Company of Archers --  the Royal bodyguards when in Scotland.  We even saw him on TV as part of the processions and parades of the royal funeral.

Then we went down to Birmingham and ran into snags.  First Sally got Covid (relatively mild), which deleted our canalboat trips and delayed  our flight home.  Then an Aer Lingus SNAFU has our luggage somewhere at Birmingham International (we have iTrackers on them) and cost us a $175 taxi ride from B'ham to London Heathrow airport (all good there).  Caught a British Airways flight to the Dulles, near DC. Then home today to Florida.

And now.... we face the possibility of a hurricane!

Off to the UK tomorrow morning early.  Spending four weeks seeing old friends, Lady Sally's sister, The Ring of Broca on Orkney and other archaeological delights,  plus spending 4 nights at Wedderburn Castle attending the Clan Home/Hume Gathering for the first time and visiting/revisiting many of the Clan sights around the Scottish East March.

Douglas -- the dulcimer isn't "fretted for a mixolydian scale".  As Dusty says, a dulcimer is traditionally fretted Diatonically -- does not include the half intervals of a full Chromatic fretboard like a guitar. As he also says,  back in the 1970s builders started adding the 6+ half interval to allow them the play both a Mixolydian Modal scale and an Ionian Modal scale from the same tuning.

If you are building this dulcimer for personal use, then the question of whether to include the 6+ fret depends on your playing style and musical choices.   

IF you tune DAd (or any Mixolydian tuning) and play Chord Melody style -- fretting across all courses, THEN I would include the 6+ fret (and possibly the 1+ fret as Dusty suggests).

IF you play Noter & Drone or Fingerdance style -- fretting only the melody string, THEN I would forego the 6+ fret and learn to quickly change the tuning of just the Melody string to switch between all of the Modal tunings as needed. 

Alternatively you can forego the 6+ fret and tune to a Unison or "dropped Unison" tuning (ddd or Ddd for example).  This does for those of us who do not have the 6+ fret, what that half fret does for people who only tune DAd -- that is allow us play more than one scale from the same tuning.

As far as an appropriate place for your question -- it's always better IMHO to start a new thread with a new question rather than "riding the coattails" of someone else's Q&A.  That way others who have your same question can more easily find it and our responses to you.

Whew!   That's a mouthful of names right there, Banjimer!

Squeakyhawk -- Welcome to our happy place.    There is an ancient style of presentation which I use often -- play a verse/sing a verse.  I have issues with combining the two things, so I just don't.  No reason you can't use the same technique.  At least start with speaking the verse,  then when you get more comfortable chant the verse in time to open strums.

VERY COMMON.  You have two instruments with different internal volumes.  That is a major factor in the sound -- just as it is in your guitar and uke.  Apples and tangerines as it were.  There are hundreds... maybe a thousand factors which affect the overall sound of a dulcimer. Among them: 

volume of body
area of sound holes
VSL
number of strings
plain vs wound strings
string tensions
where the bridge sets relative to the endblock
total mass of vibrating wood
mass of fretboard
area of top and back available to vibrate
internal bracing
kind of finish
mass of finish
external muffling (lap/arms)
thickness of top/back/sides
material the nut & bridge are made of, and, oh yeah
wood species 

... to name just a few.  

The interesting thing is that virtually identical dulcimers from the same builder -- dimensions, materials, finish etc -- can, usually do, sound different from each other.

Dusty -- Black Bamboo - Phyllostachys nigra is my all time favorite.

Roy --  never use fresh 'green'  culms from the current year,  always harvest culms which are at least a year old.  That way they don't need to dry, just cut and use.

If you like bamboo, just ask someone like me, who has tons of various kinds of bamboo growing all around, to send you some lengths of culm.

@ocean-daughter  --  Bamburgh and Lindisfaran are fabulous.  Visited there the last time we went over.  My Scottish clan has links to that area when it was 'debatable land' between between Alba and Ængland about the time of The Conquest.

PM me your address...

Noters don't have to be round.   Or perfectly circular.  Surely one of the Big Box stores near you has Maple.  Or a local sawmill/lumber yard.  I'm getting ready for a trip to the UK in a few days, or I'd send you some maple and other hardwood bits.  

Did I give you this link to my Get Noterized booklet?  All sorts of good info on choosing and using a noter:
Ken Hulme's "Get Noterized!" Article - Strumelia | fotmd.com

Bamboo is one of the all around best and least expensive materials for noters.  I've used them for decades.  River Cane is one native species of bamboo that was common used for noters in Appalachia.   I personally use noters about the size of my index finger. Some people like 'em smaller -- like 1/4" but i find it hard to hold something that small.

Oak I consider the minimum hardness for a noter, and it's very open-pored which isn't that good.  Maple, all the way to Lignum Vitae are better choices -- from 1200 to 4500 on the Janka Hardness scale.  Fine sand (400-800 grit and polish the wood.  Then I use 3-4 coats of Tung oil to give it a smooth harder surface.

I get a lot of exotic hardwoods by buying "pen blanks" from Ebay.  The blanks are about 3/4"x3/4'x5".  Then I use my inverted belt sander to round them out:

Janka Hardness chart for Exotic Wood and Domestic Wood | Bell Forest Products

That flathead looks like a Cripple Creek Aspen model.   IIRC Lori is/was Bud & Donna's daughter in law; but don't quote me on that...   

If it doesn't have a CC maker's label inside it  may be one of their kits of this model.

Melanie -- send me a PM with your email address,  I can't seem to get you 'friended' for some  reason.  I have PDFs of two of your songs so far -- Star of County Down and Wayfaring Stranger.   

I think Richard is right about the date for the switch to solid wood.  If not, I just don't see that a laminated soundboard would make any difference in sound on any instrument, let alone one as small as a Ginger.  

 I just looked at the pictures, and I don't recall ever seeing anything like that. Maybe some weird attempt to compensate/intonate for string thickness; but 30 degrees seems 'way off the mark?     If it weren't for the ludicrous 33 pound shipping weight for a $30 shipping fee it might be worth the $15 bid price just to see in person.  

Actually, all four of those tunes can be played from DAA.  Although I admit Shady Grove and Wayfaring Stranger sound much better played in Aeolian DAC (first note of the scale starts on fret 1) which (as minor tunes) is where they are intended to be played.   I play primarily by ear, and don't collect tab, but I'll put those four tunes together in DAA for you.   

Danny Boy is almost the perfect Ionian tune fitting between the 1st and 12th frets, ending on fret 3.  I learned Star of County Down from an old Tommy Makem and the Clancy Brother's album.

One of the "things" about Noter & Drone [layers is that we're not afraid to change tunings to fit the song.  We know it's only a matter of changing the pitch of 1 string!  Chord-Melody players try to play virtually everything from DAd.

The noter certainly adds a certain 'flavor' to the dulcimer sound, like nothing else.  

Fingerdance is much the same as Noter & Drone --  in that you play the melody on the melody string(s) only while the drones hummmm along.  The sound is different because your finger absorbs sound differently than a noter does.  FWIW you can't play "Noter & Drone style" by fretting with your finger. A Noter is a separate object held in the hand; not part of the hand itself.  It's not just a matter of semantics but also the performance of certain techniques like slides, pull-offs, hammer-ones etc..  

Melanie -- Sorry to hear about your information overload.  When I started there wasn't much more than Jean Ritchie's first book.  No internet. No overload!  I had to make my first dulcimer so I could learn to play it.   I taught myself Noter & Drone and have stayed with it ever since. I play primarily Scottish Celtic and Americana type music.

As Dusty suggests, put down the books, pick up your dulcimer, and play.  Since you want to go with N&D and Celtic and simple (yes the dulcimer really is "simple" to learn if you want to play Noter & Drone or Fingerdance style);   then tune to DAA and between you and Dusty and I and a couple others we'll get you well on your way. 

Don't worry about Dorian Mode or capos or anything right now.  The majority of the music you want to play can be played right from DAA.    Dorian and Aeolian and Mixolydian mode are "special case" tunings for a limited number of songs in the world of English and Scottish Popular Ballads as Francis James Child called them in the 1880s when he collected over 300 of them with their American variations.

If you tell us a couple of your favorite Celtic or Americana songs we'll have something to work together with you.  Feel free to send me a PM here so I can help you most efficiently.


PS.  I know I said put down the books, but there is a little booklet/essay I wrote a number of years back called Get Noterized -- all about how to choose and use a stick to make beautiful music.  You can find it here:
Ken Hulme's "Get Noterized!" Article - Strumelia | fotmd.com

Yep -- some instruments (seemingly identical to others of the same model by the same maker) just seem to want to be in a certain tuning; others will swap tunings and sound good in all of them.  Whether it's internal instrument volume, strings of differing sizes and tensions, tensions on other parts made certain ways or what; your guess is as good as mine.  

Roy -- it's your journey -- enjoy.

Roy --- I think you're suffering from information overload!   You're reading In Search of The Wild Dulcimer, which is about as far from Noter & Drone as you can possibly get!  I know.  When I started there was only Jean Ritchie's first book.  Then along came In Search Of... and it just confused the heck out of me.  What Robert does, and what traditional Noter & Drone players do are not quite opposite poles of a magnet.  I've known Robert for years, and am amazed by his skills as a singer-player-songwriter.  But I'm never gonna get within a lightyear of what he does, and decided long ago it wasn't worth bashing my head against the wall in frustration.

I respectfully suggest that you put down the books, forget the theory, and just play.  Spend time getting to know the diatonic fretboard and where the notes are on it and how to move that noter fluidly from place to place. Get half a dozen songs in your repertoire in Ionian and half a dozen more in Mixolydian.  

CGG and DAA are both Ionian Modal Tunings.  Instead of letters some folks use numbers to indicate the Modes generically -- rather than saying "CGG and DAA" the say  1-5-5 to indicate that 1 is 'whatever' bass note, and the Middle drone and Melody strings are both tuning "a fifth above" -- that is 5 note higher than the Bass note.  

Likewise DAd and CGc are both Mixolydian Modal tunes designated numerically 1-5-8.  The Middle drone is "a fifth above" and the Melody string is "an octave above" the Bass string. 

The other two commonly used Modal Tunings are Dorian -- numbered 1-5-4, and Aeolian -- numbered 1-5-7.  In Dorian tunings the Melody string is tuned "four notes higher" than the Bass.  In Aeolian the Melody string is tuned "7 notes higher" than the Bass string.

As an aside, you can always ask Robert Force what he meant directly.  He's still around and doing at least some Festivals.  In Search of... is available free online at www.robertforce.com.  Use the Contact to reach him directly.

Better to take material off the bottom of a nut or bridge to reduce height.  Deep notches can "run into each other on the top"...  Search on here on the phrase "nickel and dime" and you'll find descriptions on reducing string height to a good level.

I'll be playing on Orkney, provided I can find a luthier I know who lives there.  Gonna be hard to fit even my travel dulcimer into my luggage for a 4 week trip to the UK...

Steve -- the short answer is that Modes are scales - do, re, me fa, sol, la, ti , and do again is the Ionian Mode, which guitars etc call the Major.   Other scales (Modes) have other sequences of notes.  It's music theory.  Don't worry.

Diatonic means that the fretboard does not have all of the half steps that chromatic fretboard does -- which is why there are wide spaces between some frets and narrow spaces between other frets.  On a chromatic fretboard those wide spaces would have another fret in the middle.

Stephen -- I am chagrined to hear that my beginner booklet has you stopping reading for fear that your head would  explode!!!  If you have ANY questions about anything I've written there, please write (through PM here or email) and tell me, and I will do my best to re-explain whatever it is that's troubling you.  

As an aside -- the dulcimer IS a very simple instrument to learn!! .   

1.  There are 3 courses of strings -- bass (farthest from you), melody (closest to you) and middle drone (in the middle naturally). Each course usually has one string each, but sometimes they have two strings very close together which are treated as if they are a single string.  

2.  You make music by pressing down the melody course at various frets up and down the fretboard, while strumming across all of the courses.  

FWIW, I'm 74, and spent over 35 years of my working career as a science and technical writer explaining in detail how to use many more complicated devices for people with little or no experience in using them.

Wow! That's a rather BIG question Steve!  Part of the answer depends on how you personally learn best.  There are Youtube vids.  There are dozens of books.  And today, there is personal instruction by Zoom or a local dulcimer club or player.  I learned from Jean Ritchie's landmark The Dulcimer Book decades ago when dulcimer players were uncommon.  I'm reader and a writer and am accustomed to that way. 

Today, if I were starting out, I would look for personal instruction.  Where do you live?  Is there a dulcimer club or player with 40 miles?  That IMHO is the way to go.  Second would be some Zoom call lessons. 

There are surely several people here who would be willing to work with you.

FWIW, If you aren't going to Fingerdance (play with bare fingers on the melody string while the others hummm along), are you trying to learn Chord-Melody style or Noter & Drone style?   

For beginners I almost always recommend Fingerdancing because it trains your body and mind both to interact with the instrument.  You don't "dance" to start, it's more like walking.  Chord-Melody involves trying to coordinate three fingers on three strings which isn't as easy; and Noter & Drone involves learning to use a stick to ftret the strings.  

Try using the loop-end to make a running loop, by putting the stabby-end through the loop and pulling it up.  You might want to order, or find locally, dulcimer string sets or individual strings of specific gauges.

Tuning peg shafts are seldom very thick. 

Full size (4/4) violin pegs are .25" at the tip
1/4 violin pegs are .23"
1/8 violin pegs (the smallest) are .196 at the tip

You can buy an inexpensive standard taper reamer for under $20 on Amazon (I think I paid $12) and standard violin pegs can be had from internationalviolin.com from $.95 each on up depending on size and wood.  The standard taper matches the taper of standard violin pegs without any tweaking.  All you do is insert the reamer in the large end of the hole, push gently and twist a couple times, test fit the new peg, and repeat as necessary.  

For strings on 28"
D = .019 or .020 plain steel.  You can use a .020 wound if you like
A = .012 or .014 plain steel

Carl E. LaTray from Frankfort, NY  1969 #1.  Never heard of him.  Dulcimer Godmother Jean Ritchie (originally from Viper, KY)  lived in Port Washington, NY and she & husband George Pickow made similar instruments at that same period of time. Co-incidence?  I dunno.

Carl passed away in 2013.  Here's a link to his Obituary, which says in part " Carl was also a skilled craftsman known for his beautifully created woodwork of dulcimers, guitars and various woodworking designs.

Carl LaTray Obituary (2013) - Utica, NY - The Observer-Dispatch (legacy.com)

That is a very fine "first build" dulcimer you have there.  It would be interesting to see the last dulcimer he built!

The footed back is very traditional, it allows you to set the instrument on a "possum board" and then set it in your lap, which allows the back to vibrate and gives you more volume. 

The arched fretboard was known in a few traditional dulcemores, but was pretty rare back in 1969.  It isn't particularly common today but can be a functional "accent". The arches allow the fretboard to remain rigid but gives a significant reduction in mass, making the whole instrument lighter and more responsive.  

Having looked at the photos you posted in your other thread, Roy, It is obvious that you have a very nice older dulcemore intended only for Noter & Drone or Fingerdancing style play.  The instrument is in the style of a Kentucky or JE Thomas dulcemore with staple frets under only the melody string.   There is no 6+ fret either, again pointing to the traditional nature of the instrument

That is a very nice older "Kentucky style" similar to a J.E. "Uncle Ed" Thomas dulcemore with staple frets under only the melody string -- thus intended strictly for Noter & Drone or Fingerdancing style play.   There is no 6+ fret.

If you look through the rear sound holes with a flashlight, is there any sort of maker's label, or written name/date in the wood of the inside bottom?

Personally I would do everything possible to keep the original pegs functioning.  Although they are "in the style of" I don't believe those are commercial pegs.  

What is the VSL?  That's what we need to determine which strings you'll need.  Is the bass string wound?  It's hard to tell.  Many/most traditional dulcemores did not use wound bass strings, which contributes to the 'high silvery' sound of traditional dulcemores rather than the deeper more mellow tone of modern dulcimers.

You do not need all those wraps of string around the pegs.  Through the hole and around twice is all that's necessary; then cut of the excess to avoid birds nests in the pegbox.  

If you have a micrometer, you could mike the strings and see what is currently installed. But with the VSL and knowing you want to tune DAA, we can use a calculator to determine more exact gauges.  However, for VSLs between 24-26", a pair of plain steel .012s for the melody and mid drone, and a plain .018 or .020 for the bass are a good place to start. 

Tuning a bit sharp, with a push at the end to lock the peg is the technique I use.  Then as you play a bit the strings stretch  just a hair reducing the sharpness.  Since we mostly play solo, the exact notes of the tuning are not super critical, although too sharp or too flat don't sound very sweet together.