Forum Activity for @marg

Well, you got yours set up a lot faster than I did. I still have to wait for the pick up to come before I can get that in, than fingers cross - all will work & I will also be set up. The way it should have come, since I did requested a low action several times & I was told it would be low & easy to play. (The difference of the action could be the difference of the pick up - maybe they measure before the pick up than when that goes in, it's that much higher.)

I will say because of needing to address my problems, I have learned so much more about dulcimers than I knew before. You & a few of the other members have been so helpful in offering your information. Before, I didn't know about sanding the bone or how to take out a pick up or even much about a string pin. I would say GoldTone & I could call it even if after learning all of this, I was set up within 2 days, not a month.

I do hope you do continue - if not in promoting the dulciborn at lease in playing them. Yes, they do need to do a better set up otherwise they will loose any following they have with them - and they are so very different in appearance and tone. I do wish them all the best but they need to fine tune their set ups.

m.

Frank Ledgerwood said:

At least your close to getting the bugs out. I have mine set up the way I like it. Biggest dilemma, is the ovalized/oversized holes for the string pins on the bridge and a small dent on side. Poor QC.

(either works or it doesn't -a few replaced at GT )

I talked to Nathan at GT & he led me though a few checks, Yes, they work or they don't & this one isn't so they are going to send out a new pick up. I have no idea if it worked before lowering the action since I was concerned on trying to get the strings low enough to be able to play- I didn't check the pick up until afterward it was playable.

It sure would have been nice to have received the dulciborn with a lower action & pick up working - all good right out of the box. There is such a hugh difference from the height of the action when it came & now - and as you know the tone is beautiful. I love listening to your videos you have on dulciborn.com

How are you making out with yours? I'm sure you can get your action fixed a lot quicker & better than me. Sorry I don't live closer, I may have knocked on your door for some help.

Looking forward to a new video soon with this last one you received.

Thanks for all your replies with this discussion

If you sand down the bone to lower the action, have you ever run into a problem of the pick up not working? If the bone tilts a bit should the sanded end be on some sort of slant to be flat on the pickup since the bone is tilting? I have started a new discussion with the dulcimer making group - Transducer Pickup under saddle. They have given lots of good info.

marg said:

Frank,

Sorry yours wasn't as nice as the one you played. Sounds like your action is a lot like mine was. The bone has been sanded 1/16"plus a bit more than 1/32"and a bit off the sides. It fits better in the bridge - no temp with wood shim now but still no pick up. Not sure what is going on there but the action is much better, low & no buzz - the way it should have come. We did put a notch on the bone for the melody strings, they were not equal distance from nut to bridge but ended quite far apart at bridge.

On the pick up, I'm lost as to why I'm not getting anything. I will play it for a few days than e-mail Wayne an up-date.

I really wish they can get their dulciborns problems corrected, they are such an interesting instrument - the discussions should be about the tone & volume, not the problems.

Frank,

Sorry yours wasn't as nice as the one you played. Sounds like your action is a lot like mine was. The bone has been sanded 1/16"plus a bit more than 1/32"and a bit off the sides. It fits better in the bridge - no temp with wood shim now but still no pick up. Not sure what is going on there but the action is much better, low & no buzz - the way it should have come. We did put a notch on the bone for the melody strings, they were not equal distance from nut to bridge but ended quite far apart at bridge.

On the pick up, I'm lost as to why I'm not getting anything. I will play it for a few days than e-mail Wayne an up-date.

I really wish they can get their dulciborns problems corrected, they are such an interesting instrument - the discussions should be about the tone & volume, not the problems.

Glad the dulciborn did come and yes if shipped out to someone set up like it is, would be disappointing. Gold Tone has such a great instrument but they do need to fine tune it some. I am having some trouble getting mine set up.

Thank you for the info on saddle needs to be in contact with with pick up strip inside the bridge. It may not have gotten back all the way in after sanding or doesn't like the thin wooden shim that was place in the slot to raise the strings some because of buzzing

Frank Ledgerwood said:

Hi Marg,

For that type of pick-up, directly under and making full contact with saddle is were it needs to be. Even the slightest bit of dust or debris between saddle and p/u can drastically alter the tone when plugged in. The tone can be muddied also if there's any sort of space there as well. You want complete, unobstructive contact from the strings, thru the saddle/bridge/pup to the top.

(fretboard to a sloping/twisting of the fret board(sounds like the one you played),)

((for a third batch) came in that addressed the fret board issue. The probable main cause was in the scalloped fret board)

Have you received your new Dulciborn yet and does it play better?

Have you ever had a problem with the pick up - the medal part down in the bridge? Do we need to be careful when putting the bridge back in after sanding a bit to lower the action, that we don'tmess up that part of the connection to work well when hooked up to the amp? Strange that it is in the bridge, so we should make sure nothing is touching that part or would that not make any difference?

Should the bone go all the way down into the bridge or just enough to hold itself straight?

You have been very helpful Frank, I hope you can answer these concerns.

I am so new and green to anything dulcimer but enjoy the tone of the dulciborn and have listen to your videos many times.

Frank Ledgerwood said:

I think this new batch is better. 4 hrs was a good time for the older ones that needed fret board leveling and re fretted. The big dilemma for GT was the fact that after the go ahead based on a final prototype, then waiting 5-6 months for assembly and shipping, the product was not at agreed upon specs.

GT's bread and butter is in their Banjos and they set up dozens a day, so it's a loss to GT to have a tech spend most of a day on one Dulciborn. This is why I worked it out with them to go down and set up my own. No, they didn't pay me and I got a minimal price break to do it. At the time it took up to a month to order thru them and get it set up. The one I'm having sent up will tell me what to expect with the new bunch....

I had the action lowered some on the dulciborn, it's much easier to play now. May try even a bit lower but will need to watch for buzzing. Don't let the comments about high action steer you away, it's a beautiful instrument & the action can be adjusted.

I like how we can have a discussion where we can ask a question and get different feel backs (without anyone thinking we own them something), as any one member would ask another member.

I am working with Wayne @ GT & have been since before my first reply within these discussions. Wayne has been very nice with all of my questions as you have been.Thank you all for your input - and you are right - the best action height is different for each of us. I am new playing the dulcimer and most anything you have said has help.

I saw some members (in a another discussion) were talking about playing chores and developing strength in their hands besides quicker moment. I many try some of their suggestions & see if that helps to strengthen my hand for playing the dulciborn before I see to having the action lowered any. I wouldn't want to alter any of the tone, it is beautiful

I had sweet help today practicing - see photo

No, not playing the last fret but that is where was noted for taking the height. Having the action high doesn't just effect the last fret but from 10 - 11 on up and I do play these frets.

Wayne set it up for me & knew I was looking for a low action, but as you said what is low or high to one may not be for another. I just received it Friday and Wayne knows the upper frets are a problem for me, while I wait for him to get back with me - saw this discussion & jump in for info. since I knew you had one & set up dulciborns for sale thought you would have some ideas. I do think that the "typical" height for the dulciborns are to high unless you have strong hands & or been playing for many years.

I have an older dulcimer with low action & plays very easy. The dulciborn (on the upper frets), I need to press so hard for the string to reach the fret, my hand shakes. I may never get the dulciborn to play as easy as my dulcimer but at least so my hand doesn't shake. It seems if sanding is the way to go, it would need to be sanded down almost 1/16" & that much may effect the lower frets. So, in a holding period over the weekend & collecting info.

Thanks Frank, love listening to your videos

m.

Frank Ledgerwood said:

You wrote "What I don't understand is if the action can be fixed by some sanding, why doesn't Gold Tone do this?"Many builders, including GT tend to set strings a little high. It's much easier to lower the action than to raise it, file or sanding to lower and new nut and saddle to raise it. This can often be resolved at point of purchase. Unless purchased online where convenience can negate service. A search in your area should find several qualified shops that can resolve your problem.

What is a "typical" height for one person may be too high (or low) for another. It may also be that the dulciborn string height at the last fret might be too high for me, I've just never found a use for the last fret. But that's just me. I didn't measure the Dulciborn but also played about 7 other Dulcimers of several different MFGers and didn't notice anything different about the D'born. 40 years of playing has probably jaded my fingers.....

(There was talk to discontinue the Dulciborns which I'm glad didn't happen as there are many happy owners, despite the growing pains.)

Yes, I am also happy they did not discontinue the Dulciborns. They already have a beautiful instrument, just a bit more adjusting on the height and they'll have something very wonderful - there now but needs easier playing.

Frank Ledgerwood said:

Now to the Dulciborn. I was fortunate in the fact that I went several times to GT and hand picked the D'borns I sold. I would select maybe 1 out of every 4-5 I looked at and then I set them up. A couple that got past me as when all mine would be sold and I would have an order where I couldn't drive 1000 miles rt to set up 1 instrument...

A quick overview. Gold Tone does not build any instruments. With the Dulciborn, Wayne worked with a Weissenborn contractor to build a finger board/fretted version. Something this contractor had never done but the only builder who agreed to try this. Thru many prototypes, they came to a working version that Wayne was satisfied with and gave the nod. Now fast forward to a shipment of a hundred Dulciborns that are not quite spec'ed as the agreed upon prototype.....The first batch had somewhat rough fret boards, high action and were fixed as best as possible. My personal D'born is one. The second batch had a cleaner board, but there were inconsistencies in every instrument from strings not aligned with fretboard to a sloping/twisting of the fret board(sounds like the one you played), which required a complete removal of frets, leveling of board and re-installing of frets. This batch is the most prevalent out there. I was down there when the prototypes (for a third batch) came in that addressed the fret board issue. The probable main cause was in the scalloped fret board not having enough integrity to stay true/flat and a weissenborn body that had minimal bracing to support/maintain a flat raised and fretted board. Weissenborns are not fretted and played with a slide. Frets are just markers and a slide is used. The new batch has corrected the string height problem. I waited to see a consistency in this group, which I have so I have my first ones coming to me this week. There was talk to discontinue the Dulciborns which I'm glad didn't happen as there are many happy owners, despite the growing pains. I tried once to find the most affordable Weissenborn builder to build a body any I would finish with Fret board and bridge. He wanted $1500.

(The action above the octave fret was about typical, but very playable. )

What does typical mean, the action is high?

Frank Ledgerwood said:

With out seeing the Dulciborn you have I couldn't say the reason for sure, the extreme height your dealing with. Lowering the saddle shouldn't be an issue and should be a cure. Today I was down at Mike Clemmers store playing one of the new ones, straight from GT, for several hours and loved it, can't wait for my new one to arrive. The action above the octave fret was about typical, but very playable. As far as a warranty issue goes after sanding down the saddle? I wouldn't know why it would be brought up in a conversation....

( It is an easy job to lift out the bone (or plastic) saddle,)

How would I do this?

First would need to move the strings, they are in pins, not even sure how to remove the pins. I have always just looped my strings around a peg -- all out in the open.

Robin Clark said:

Hi Marg,

I found this photo of a dulciborne on the internet. The saddle is sitting really high.

I know a bit about Weissenborns and a bit about dulcimers and a bit about Chinese instrument manufacture of Weissenborns - long story, but I run a small specialist guitar business and have had Weissenborns build for my businessin the past.

Original Weissenborns (1920s) have a slightly higher bridge than acoustic guitarsbut not a higher saddle (as shown in the photo of the dulciborn above). In fact, on an old Weissenborn, the break angle across the saddle is the same as a standard acoustic guitar. Here is a photo of a 1920s Weissenborn:

The high saddle on 'out-of-the-box' Dulciborns does not surprise me at all. I have seen numerous Chinese Weissenborn copies with an unnecessarily high saddle dropped into the bridge slot at the factory. It is an easy job to lift out the bone (or plastic) saddle, mark a pencil line across it about a 1/16" from the bottom, place some sandpaper on a flat surface and sand off to the line. Then re-fit the saddle and test the height of the action. Keep going as required until you get the action you want.

What does surprise about the Dulciborn is the use of a raised fretboard which requires a higher bridge? I know the raised fretboard is a significant feature of the traditional dulcimer and very useful if you are a noter drone player - but in this case it seems like over engineering as 95% of players use DAdd and chord melody playing. I think I would have tried out a lower fretboard and standard acoustic guitar bridge height rather than trying to make the instrument look like a dulcimer for no real advantage. Also I would have shaped a little relief into the fretboard and compensated the saddle. Weissenborns have no frets and a high action for Hawaiian slide guitar playing - hence the bridge is high and not compensated (no need as there are no frets). The problem with a high bridge (particularly if the saddle is then high too) is the torsional stress it places on the guitar top - you have to beef things up more thus reducing the top's ability to vibrate.There can be no 'neck set' on a Weissenborn - the top is flat from nut tobridge, so a little relief sanded in to the fretboardbefore installation of the frets would work wonders for clean playing at a lower action - perhaps this has been done by Gold Tone?

The concept is a great one - and the results seem to meet the goal of producing a louder acoustic lap dulcimer. I think I would have been a bit more radical and really thought about the instrument from a players perspective (low action, much lighter build, compensated for DAdd).

Mind you - don't take what I say as Gospel - In my opinion everything great about Appalachian dulcimer designs and playing styles had actually been perfected by 1890 And it has been downhill ever since then

Robin

I have a saddle like the one in the photo but not the fret board, mine is solid no openings. I took a photo today of the string height, tiny bit more than 3/16" from fret to string at last fret. I can see where it maybe wouldn't be 1/8" but not this much higher.

Frank, on the new ones coming & the one you played, about how high was the action?

Robin, thanks -

What I don't understand is if the action can be fixed by some sanding, why doesn't Gold Tone do this? The only concern I have hear has been the height of the strings, everyone loves the tone but a bit easier playing would make it my go to dulcimer.

Joy,

You said, you hadthe action lowered - how did you go about this? Did the Luthier sand the bottom of the bridge or saddle? Or something else? Was that all that was needed to make it very playable?

Joy W. said:

I've had one for a while. The string action was set very high. Much too high, in fact, for me to play it. I've taken it to a Luthier and had frets added and the action lowered. Last month I had it set up so I could play with four equidistant strings and for me, it is much better that way. My instrument is not without some issues though. When I tune it, all is fine, but once I begin using frets (particularly the middle string), it is sharp. I have to do some fancy "almost in tune" tuning so that I can play without making my ears cringe. I have several other dulcimer and none have that issue except the Dulciborn.

Wayne Rogers wrote & said he did play the dulciborn personally & he says it played perfectly. Is that the difference from a man's hand & a woman's? As Paula asked: 'You do need strong hands" Is this a gender issue?

Wayne said the saddle can easily be sanded down to lower, same as you so I guess I need to find someone who can do this. Hopefully that will work and I can enjoy this beautiful instrument.

If anyone know's anyone in the Houston area they have faith in, do let me know. Only place I can think of is a music store where someone there knows some about fixing dulcimers.

Joy, when you had your's lowered, how did they do it? Has it made it much easier to play now?

I wouldn't be worried if we were talking a slight adjustment of height but it is almost impossible to sound a tone on upper frets.When the string is difficult to push all the way to the fret board, it is too high & that's what this is.

I think some sanding could probably take care of it, just wonder why Gold Tone didn't do it to start with.

No, the fret board is not scalloped.

If I would get a luthier to lower the height by sanding, wouldn't that mess up the warranty? If I don't have a luthier near me, could a guitar shop or music store to do this?

The sound is so beautiful I want to be able to play the dulciborn. Thank you for all your replies, they do help in trying to decide net steps.

Frank Ledgerwood said:

If the fret board is scalloped, it is an older version. If it's solid with no scalloped than it's the new version. The fix for the new version is a simple lowering of the saddle. A job most luthiers wouldn't charge more that 25-30$, unless he has to chase around newly created buzzing frets. Many builders, including GT tend to set strings a little high. It's much easier to lower the action than to raise it, file or sanding to lower and new nut and saddle to raise it. For some, that little extra height is too much. You wrote... " The string height over the 17th fret should be 1/8" for low action" Is that specifically for a Dulcimer ? If sothen none of myMcSpaddens or Blue Lion qualify as low action either.

Action is a personal thing. Most professional musicians dropping thousands of $$ on a newacquisitionwill send it straight to theirpreferred Luthier to be set up to their specs. I bought my first "high end" Banjo a short time ago and first thing I did, even though action was good, was to replace the bridge to make it better for my wants.

Thanks, that's a lots of info, but this dulciborn is new, just came & action is high - so sure if they pulled an older one that's why or if it's a newer one there is still a problem.

Luthiers guidelines include:

The string height over the 17th fret should be 1/8" for low action

But on the dulciborn is a bit more than 1/16 higher than 1/8. That'sdifference, 1/16" makes a big difference. the higher frets can not be press to the fret board.

It seems Gold Tone could when setting them up either sand the bridge down some or file notches in the bridge. I'm not asking for me to try anything but when you go & set yours up would you or could you do this if need be & if so couldn't Gold Tone also do this in setting the action?

Frank Ledgerwood said:

Now to the Dulciborn. I was fortunate in the fact that I went several times to GT and hand picked the D'borns I sold. I would select maybe 1 out of every 4-5 I looked at and then I set them up. A couple that got past me as when all mine would be sold and I would have an order where I couldn't drive 1000 miles rt to set up 1 instrument...

A quick overview. Gold Tone does not build any instruments. With the Dulciborn, Wayne worked with a Weissenborn contractor to build a finger board/fretted version. Something this contractor had never done but the only builder who agreed to try this. Thru many prototypes, they came to a working version that Wayne was satisfied with and gave the nod. Now fast forward to a shipment of a hundred Dulciborns that are not quite spec'ed as the agreed upon prototype.....The first batch had somewhat rough fret boards, high action and were fixed as best as possible. My personal D'born is one. The second batch had a cleaner board, but there were inconsistencies in every instrument from strings not aligned with fretboard to a sloping/twisting of the fret board(sounds like the one you played), which required a complete removal of frets, leveling of board and re-installing of frets. This batch is the most prevalent out there. I was down there when the prototypes (for a third batch) came in that addressed the fret board issue. The probable main cause was in the scalloped fret board not having enough integrity to stay true/flat and a weissenborn body that had minimal bracing to support/maintain a flat raised and fretted board. Weissenborns are not fretted and played with a slide. Frets are just markers and a slide is used. The new batch has corrected the string height problem. I waited to see a consistency in this group, which I have so I have my first ones coming to me this week. There was talk to discontinue the Dulciborns which I'm glad didn't happen as there are many happy owners, despite the growing pains. I tried once to find the most affordable Weissenborn builder to build a body any I would finish with Fret board and bridge. He wanted $1500.

I have myhand shake from trying to press the strings.If the string is difficult to push all the way to the fret board, it is too high. Why would the strings be 1/16"plus higher than luthiers guidelines say? Are they set high to get the volume?

So - to answer your question, yes I have notice this action is too high & hard to press but the sound is beautiful. So how do we lower the action and does that affect the tone at all?

Paula Brawdy said:

I played a friends. You do need strong hands. It is a goldtone that she has. I think you would get used to that, but it takes a lot more hand strength due to strings being higher and just how tight the strings are. I have fairly strong hands for a woman because I play other instruments. I did love the sound and the volume of it. But haven't plunged.

I'm curious if other women noticed this?

Another question, please:

On the Dulciborn the action up toward the bridge is high. On the 17th fret where luthiers guidelines say - the string height should be 1/8" this one is a bit more than 1/16" higher than 1/8".

Should the dulciborn have notches in the bridge or should this one, or should it be lowered by sanding and why would it be so high? For the Volume

Photos showing the quarters under the strings and video showing not being able to sound a tone.

I was playing a dulciborn today and I alsolove the sound and the volume.

But I do have an issue with the hight of the strings. I was told they were low and real easy to play and they are on the lower frets but anything over 10 or 11 starts becoming to hard to press. By the time I'm up to 13, I can not sound a tone at all.

I measured the strings to my dulcimer and with a quarter at the same spot on both my dulcimer & the dulciborn around 14-15 fret, 1 quarter fit fine on the dulcimer and 2 quarters plus extra space on the dulciborn.

Would that not be high action? And why would the action be fine 1-8 only to raise up as it goes higher, shouldn't the strings be more even?

Frank & John, have you had this problem? You say you set up the ones you have, do you set them up to be lower at the higher frets also and is 2 quarters to much? Or is this how the instrument is made, to have your hand shake from trying to press the strings?

Any one with ideas, can the action be lowered up on the higher frets?

marg

I have watched your videos many times, they are lovely

Frank Ledgerwood said:

Hi, Just thought I'd throw in my $.2 worth. I too sell the Dulciborn. I've got several vids on You Tube and the couple I did with Bing, I'm playing the Dulciborn. I spent several days down at Gold Tone, setting up the instruments that I sell and will be heading down again in a couple of weeks to set up some more with and without extra frets. I sold 6 at Coshocton last weekend. All to people who were hearing them for the first time. A quote from a new owner just receiving hers in the mail today "My Gorgeous Dulciborn arrived today, Love it, Love it, Love it!" I did a Video interview with Wayne Rogers, owner of GT which will be on their site as well as my site shortly, discussing the creation of the Dulciborn. My site, Dulciborn.com will be launched shortly, since site and domain name has been OK'd by Wayne. Yes, body of a Weissenborn and Dulcimer Fretboard. They also come standard with a Transducer Pick up and Hardshell Case. I'll never stop playing my MT. Dulcimers, but the Dulciborn is a great addition to mine and any players "quiver". The tone is unlike any Dulcimer and the volume puts you equal to any other acoustic instrument. It's why I committed 100% of my spare time and energy(soon to be full time) to promoting and selling the Dulciborn. Any ?? Let me know, The "Dulciborn Guy"

I would love to hear you play a dulciborn, Guy. If you & Frank can find the right one for you with low action, maybe we should start a new Interest Group.

I'm thinking of getting one, they sound beautiful & seem to be loud even without the hook up. Would you say yours is mellow or bright or can it be both depending on where you strum. I have watched a few video and they sound different but I'm not sure it's not the players. I don't have a collection of dulcimers, only one other so this may end up being my go to. The few people I know that have one don't seem to play their much, is it just for sometimes or could it be for all the time.

Thank you for your reply so fast.

Now that you have had the dulciborn for almost 2 months, what can you tell me about it. Is the action ok & strings easy to press or do I need to work at pressing them?

It's been some time since you posted yourvintage 1995 dulcimer. I was wondering if you still like it, I came across one much like it, 1996 one. I'm not sure I like the bright sound, hope I will like you after a few days.

I am new to this web site and to trying to play the dulcimer, I would like to send you a photo of the DF dulcimer I have. It is very much like yours but different wood and where you have leaves like a heart, mine are all leaves.

Wait, maybe I just figured out how to send a photo.

I'm open to info you have learn in playing your DF dulcimer.

thanks,

marg.

If you are still looking, may 15, 2015 on ebay: Good Luck

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BEAUTIFUL-HANDCRAFTED-MOUNTAIN-DULCIMER-by-David-Honea-27-1-2-VSL-/121648015351

HANDCRAFTED MOUNTAIN DULCIMER by David Honea 27-1/2" VSL

built overfive hundred Dulcimers over the last many years.

Each of my instruments have3 light coats of shellac.They are signed,dated and numberedon the inside and can be viewed through the soundhole.

The sides, head and tail piece are Maple.

The fret board isCherry and MaplewithMapleposition dots.

The soundboardand back arebook-matchedWestern Red Cedar.

This instrument is made of allsolid wood----no plywood.

Instrument #562

Instrument measures5-1/2" at the widest point. 2" thick. The vibratingstring length (VSL)is 27-1/2" from nut to bridge. Overall length is 33-1/2". It also has 6-1/2 and 13-1/2 fret.

It is tuned to D A A A.

So many different sound holes designs, mine also now.

yes, very nice

Dana R. McCall said:

I love natural knot holes for sound holes and have several dulcimers that way. I don't think it make any difference in the sound they are just pretty.