Forum Activity for @nate

Scale length

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

 

Hypothetically, one could make two identical boxes with different VSLs and choose two string gauges which would produce an equal amount of tension at the two lengths. for example, if both were tuned to D4, you could have a 22" VSL with a 0.010 string and a 31" VSL with a 0.007 and both would have about ~10.5 lb of tension.

Of course youd never be able to perfectly account for the difference in the actual fingerboards. I guess one possibility would be to have both fingerboards be 31" long, and the "shorter" scale just doesn't reach the end of its fingerboard.

It really is too many questions rolled up into one.
updated by @nate: 03/11/25 01:50:24PM

Scale length

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

 

And also, having the correct amount of tension to complement the thickness of the box. Thicker wood can need more string energy to get excited, so an instrument intended for high tension can sound more hollow with low tension. Kind of like when you put nylon strings on a steel string instrument.

Scale length

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Does a longer instrument simply have more tension because the players choose to use higher tension strings?
When I string up longer dulcimers, I use smaller gauge strings or lower pitch tunings to compensate. Similarly, when I string up shorter dulcimer, I use thicker strings or higher tunings to compensate. I prefer the tactile experience of having thinner strings, and I also notice a difference in sustain with longer strings, even when they are not at a higher tension. 

Scale length

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

One thing to note is that a longer scale length/VSL usually means a physically larger instrument, which can affect tone and volume.

This is just an observation and I might be wrong about this, but to me, when tuned to the same note with the same tension, thinner longer strings seem to have a fuller tone than thicker, shorter strings.

DAD........but no chords

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I am not a traditional player and my dulcimers all have a 6.5 fret, but I definitely enjoy playing melody drone with a noter or my thumb in Dad. If I didn't have a 6.5 fret, well it might be fun to mess around with but definitely wouldn't be the same.

A Question about dulcimer popularity...

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hey now Dusty, the Nate fanclub may be small, but it has a quality few members. xD

It's a very true point though. Popular artists of the 70s played a huge role in the re-emergence of the instrument. Joni Mitchell, Emmylou Harris, Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, etc. Often when you look at the comment section of tracks from that era that included dulcimer you will see people talking about how the sound stood out to them.

In modern times, Harry Styles, who was a member of the popular boy band One Direction, had a song that heavily featured the dulcimer and while his audience probably didnt notice, as a dulcimer player I definitely did.

A Question about dulcimer popularity...

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

While I totally agree with you Wally, I think that dulcimer has recently rediscovered it's place as an instrument that is great for amateur builders to make for themselves. I have personally taught a bunch of people to build dulcimers. With modern tools and hardware, it's easier than ever for people to make their own dulcimers, and for people who like to build instruments, dulcimers and strumsticks are a common project.
Personally, I mainly built cigar box guitars before learning about dulcimers, and I have preferred making dulcimers since.
I think that the lack of commercial viability is also an indication of the durability or dulcimers, and the care given to them. There are probably more dulcimers out there than dulcimer players, so making new ones is best left to folks who make exceptional instruments, like many of the fine luthiers on this site.

updated by @nate: 02/04/25 09:39:13PM

A Question about dulcimer popularity...

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Certainly not my interest! I really want to know what folks who have been playing for decades think about this.
I am a young person and have not played for very long so this observation is limited. From my conversations with others, it seems that the instrument has been on a slow and steady decline since the folk revival. I think the instrument has incredible potential for a come back, but at the moment I would say that the popularity sadly seems to be on decline.

Action/ nickel under the 7th

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hello Art. The nickel should be on top of the 7th fret and the dime should be sitting on the fretboard in the space between the nut and the first fret, flush against the first fret. Here are a couple of photos.

If the string is too high at the dime, you may need to make the nut slightly less tall by removing it and sanding a tiny bit off the bottom. If the string is too high at the nickel, you may need to sand a little off the bridge. Always go slow, and keep in mind that its a lot easier to take too much off than it is to put material back.

An important thing to note is that the dime will not be a useful reference if your instrument has jumbo fretwire, because the frets will be taller than the dime.

updated by @nate: 02/01/25 07:04:12PM

Introduce Yourself!

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Well i hope that character uploads again, because it was very cool ambient dulcimer music.

Tuners

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Interestingly Jim, leaving the clip on tuner on the instrument has become a symbol of proud naivete in some genres. The idea that a player needs regular access to a tuner is meant to be an indicator that they are very versatile, but not classically trained. Its a funny signal of authenticity that i see a lot in genres like folk punk. 

Introduce Yourself!

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

There is one guy @glowhazel that used to upload really neat ambient stuff. Sadly i dont think hes posted anything recently.

playing along in a bluegrass jam

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hello Jon. In my opinion, even when playing with louder instruments the dulcimer still fits nicely into the blend and adds a lot to the overall sound. Assuming you can't use any kind of amplification and are wanting the sound of the dulcimer to stand out, it helps to consider where all the players are relative to eachother and make sure that the quieter instruments are  prominently placed where they wont be drowned out as easily.

Introduce Yourself!

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Very cool Damon. I dont know anything about synthesizers so i look forward to hearing what kinds of unique sounds you can get from the dulcimer.

Ive been making really simple lures as a hobby for several years now. Mainly spoons and tied flies but ive also tried making a couple molds for soft plastic lures, and Ive whittled a couple from wood as well. Catching a fish on my own lure is not only a very rewarding feeling, but has also taught me a lot about what fish really care about vs what they don't.

to get chromatic or not

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thank you very much Sam, that's really kind of you to say and I'm glad that you find it cool.

to get chromatic or not

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@mark-gilston

That is a lot of food for thought and i have a  ton of respect for your opinion, so thank you very much for taking the time to share it.

The reason i associate dulcimer with 3 string guitar is because of the many 3 string cigar box guitars tuned to Dad that have essentially the same layout as a chromatic dulcimer, but with the string order reversed. I do agree that the tone is entirely different, but i have seen a lot of overlap of tabs and instructions between 3 string cigar box guitars and dulcimers.

To my understanding dulcimers were originally a "simplified" version of European zithers created with limited resources and the modern instrument has developed from that. I am sure that folks back them would have loved chromatic fretboards, if they were as easy to make as they are now.

Thanks again for sharing your opinions and knowledge 

Nate

to get chromatic or not

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I hear that Gale! I build aquavina dulcimers, which have only existed for a couple decades and I know of less than 5 people that have built them. What i build and play are at the edges of what could be considered a dulcimer, but i have noticed that dulcimers have more unique and distinctive designs than any other instrument i know of. To me, innovation is the spirit of dulcimer.

to get chromatic or not

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The chromatic dulcimer is one of the most contentious topics ive noticed surrounding dulcimer. The traditional significance and cultural value are some of the most interesting aspects of the dulcimer, so it makes sense to me that people dont want that to fall by the wayside in an attempt to turn dulcimer into a 3 string guitar.

Its hard to balance the unique characteristics that make dulcimer interesting with the standardized characteristics that make it modern.

Hammered Dulcimer EXR

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

That's an awesome story Jim. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

updated by @nate: 01/11/25 12:30:26AM

Any body have an idea what this is ?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

 

It can be really confusing to navigate all of the European zithers and their nuances. The huge variety of different styles of dulcimer can make it difficult to parse through. While stylistically the instrument resembles some European predecessors, functionally it is much more similar to an Appalachian dulcimer than to any other instrument.

Glad to hear the instrument found a home, it sounds like it may have needed some maintenance before playing. Out of curiosity, since this post is several years old, do you still play dulcimer?
-Nate

Any body have an idea what this is ?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

I have heard, and tend to generally accept similar things. I almost never play in the second octave unless it's with a noter, and the frets have to be so dang precise when they're that close together, so I often just don't bother adding many extras to it. 9/10 times if I need an extra fret it's either for chord strumming, or because a tab used it, so in either case I don't usually need it an octave higher. 

I do find it especially odd that the second octave *does* have a 10.5 fret but no 8.5 fret. I would think that the 8.5 would be much more useful if you were to pick only one of the two.

updated by @nate: 01/10/25 05:11:30PM

Any body have an idea what this is ?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Kind of funny to see the 1.5 and 3.5 on the first octave, but no 1.5 fret on the second octave (8.5 fret). It makes me wonder if the extra frets were added after construction. In the past i have sometimes added half frets for specific arrangements, and Im usually too lazy to also add the fret to the second octave. 

updated by @nate: 01/10/25 04:26:30PM

String vibrates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Im really glad you mentioned camera and light source angle Ken. That is definitely what i was failing to consider. I guess if the camera and light source were both directly above the instrument, the shadow would move much less

String vibrates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Id really love to know more about this. I've seen Bing do it in a few videos and I just can't wrap my head around it. I believe it is due to the interaction between the vibration of the string and the cameras frame rate, but visually, the shadow seems to move a lot further than the actual string does. Is the bass string actually moving over the edge of the fingerboard, or is this some type of optical illusion?

updated by @nate: 01/08/25 05:23:46PM

Hello! Anyone know about Mawhee?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Very cool. Mawhee was the absolute first maker that I learned about, after trying to look up "walkabout and stick dulcimers" lol. Welcome to the forum. I hope your personal connection to the dulcimer grows into a lifetime of enjoyment.
-Nate

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@patrick If you punch your VSL into a fret calculator for guitar, the third fret is the same as the 1.5 on dulcimer 

Tuners

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Good point, Wally.
As a builder, I want my tuner to be as precise as possible to make sure that my instrument is as precise as possible. If the tuner is off, then the bridge will be off, and the frets will be off and the whole instrument will have a compounding error. 
If I were to place my bridge using a tuner that considers 9 cents sharp to be "in the green." and then also tuned my string 9 cents sharp, that could lead to terrible intonation near the end of the second octave.

I also think that our pitch perception is only as precise as the data we give it, so it's just good practice to get as close as I can, unless I have some reason not to.

Tuners

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

 

In general, a phone app on a modern smartphone will typically be much more precise than a clip on tuner, as the microphone quality of smartphones is higher than that of clip on tuners. One big downside to using your phone is that it picks up all background noise as well. I use an app for android called soundcorset and it works perfectly for me. Another cool thing about soundcorset is that you can adjust the pitch standard to things other than A440, which can be fun to mess around with.

I have had a couple snarks, as well as some other clip on tuners and I think they work great.  Tuners that clip onto the headstock are really convenient because they don't pick up much ambient noise, plus theyre very portable and simple. My only problem is that I always end up losing them my favorite was a cheap violin tuner that showed which octave you are in and how many cents off you are. I wish I could say what brand it was, but I've misplaced it lol.

Like Dusty said, just about any tuner will do the job. I really like the convenience of using my phone, but it doesnt work as well if there's a lot of wind or background noise.

A while ago I compared several different tuners and found that the cheap generic ones that came for free with instruments I've bought are frequently off by a few cents. Even that really shouldn't matter though.



updated by @nate: 12/30/24 10:37:22PM

Question for newbie on a new instrument

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The instrument has really cool decoration and definitely seems like a good deal at that price, though I'm not sure how much it would cost to repair the soundboard, per what Ken mentioned. For your question about if the instrument is well suited to a beginner, a four course equidistant setup can often be considered more difficult than a three course setup. Four string equidistant is not necessarily the easiest for a beginner, however if you are ambitious, it might be a fun challenge. Four string equidistant definitely works great for finger picking!

Three Strings or Four ?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

 
As I explained in the other thread where you mentioned this, it is incorrect. The builder sets the action after the frets are already installed. The action is determined by the distance between the crowns of the frets and the bottom of the strings, so the actual height of the frets does not affect action. 

dulcimer kit

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks for all these neat details @john-c-knopf

Optimum spacing for the two melody strings

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Also, if you were to get a nut of a different thickness, which I don't recommend until you understand the instrument better, the most important thing is that the length of the VSL isnt changed. Under no circumstances should a new nut and bridge cause the VSL to become any longer or shorter. A new nut and bridge should snugly fit against the inside edges of the slots from the old nut and bridge.

Optimum spacing for the two melody strings

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
There isnt a steadfast answer, because if the strings are at a higher tension, they can allow a smaller space, whereas at a lower tension they need more space. Also, super glue has been mass produced since the 60s, but it is not preferable. If you were to fill in the slots, there is an old trick of filling slots with baking soda, then carefully dripping on superglue, which creates a very strong compound. Also, filling the slots with sawdust and adding wood glue can work well. Sawdust and wood flue is more aesthetic, whereas baking soda and superglue is much stronger.
updated by @nate: 12/16/24 02:29:29AM

Disappointed with customer service from The Dulcimer Shoppe.

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thats really unfortunate to hear. Its important to know that an Appalachian dulcimer is often built in a much more "hands on" fashion than most mass produced string instruments, and still often manages to offer handmade instruments at much lower prices than other instruments made in factories. For this reason, some amount of imperfections could be expected.

Nonetheless, I can definitely understand your frustration. If the instrument was damaged before it reached you, it doesnt make sense that they should say "we didnt look that close." Given that a skilled woodworker would obviously know if they accidentally left dents on the wood. 

They should have known the level of cosmetic issue on the instrument and should have been honest with you about it before shipping, and after your negative feedback.

In a business sense, its surprising that they didnt simply placate you, even if they disagreed.

updated by @nate: 12/05/24 09:46:49PM

Chromatic Dulcimer is still a Dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
The frets should already be installed before the action is determined. String action is set by adjusting the height of the nut and bridge relative to the tops of the fret crowns, so the height of the frets doesn't affect the action of the instrument. 

Confused about strings gauge reccomendations...

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I have gone down to .08 and up to .16 for a D melody string on a 25" vsl. Its mostly a matter of preference. The amount of tension on the strings affects tone, volume, and sustain. It also affects how comfortable the instrument is to fret. A lot of dulcimer players prefer pretty low tension, relative to an acoustic guitar of the same VSL, for example.

Inner melody string flat by the 3rd fret

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks for sharing those photos. I would say that the string spacing on that dulcimer is pretty unusual, which might make it extra difficult to play. If you look at the dulcimer in the 4th photo you attached, you can see that the two melody strings are usually close together, and the "course" of paired melody strings is equally spaced with the other two strings. I'm not sure if your father in law intended for it to be "paired melody strings" or "four string equidistant" but I think it would difficult to play in either.
Also, there are many different ways to hold a noter based on your preference, and I recommend joining the "Old Style Drone & Noter players group if you haven't already.
https://fotmd.com/strumelia/group/19/old-style-drone-noter-players

updated by @nate: 11/26/24 06:27:20PM

Inner melody string flat by the 3rd fret

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thats a very peculiar design in a few different ways. Could you please take a photo of the entire instrument, id be really curious to see it

Introduce Yourself!

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Wow @chris-hornby . That is quite a futuristic approach. It turned out great. I'd love to hear a recording of it!

Looking to buy a new dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks Ken for clarifying. I should have been more explicit that the difference in a Daaa and Dadd bridge is VERY slight, and will likely equate to only a couple cents difference. It is nowhere near enough difference to sound "off" however, if you are keen on developing your ear to hear subtle differences over time, in my opinion its good to have the most precise intonation possible.