Forum Activity for @nate

On Trademarks

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Having had zero awareness of your use of the phrase "extended range" prior to this conversation, I have used the phrase countless times to describe dulcimers with...an extended range. It is a basic description of an instrument feature, much like how "Kentucky dulcimer" denotes the region of Appalachia where a certain style was popularized and possibly originated. 

It made sense to me that these words in this context, therefore, are most likely not subject to ownership, which is what was stated in response to the comment where someone claimed that you have protected rights to the phrase "extended range" as it pertains to a dulcimer. I thought that would be the end of it.

I have always and will continue to admire your dulcimers for their aesthetics and quality. You have been making beautiful and well built dulcimers for much longer than I've been alive.

Claiming ownership of the phrase "extended range dulcimer" really rubs me the wrong way, since those are just the most basic literal words that could be used to describe the function of adding extra strings to the bass end of a dulcimer. Especially when you said "you can sue someone for using your trademarked design if...it is unauthorized and infringes on your trademark rights." then said " I have done nothing but promote the dulcimer community throughout my 50 years of dulcimer building" then said "I will let your conscience guide you as to whether to leave those comments up...."

To my sensibilities, claiming ownership of basic descriptions of dulcimers and stating that you could sue others for using them, then trying to moralize that others should be ashamed of disagreeing is not a good way to promote the dulcimer community. Especially not concepts that you certainly did not invent, and by your own admission you do not '“actively and continuously” engage in commerce for' which is the legal standard you presented in this original post. 

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Whoops, I did notice that they were bones and still typed spoons for some reason lol. Similar, but still quite different. Either way, sounds like a cool group, as most lovers of folk music and instruments tend to be.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Looks like a lot of fun. I see that you are playing harmonica and spoons at the same time, which is no small feat, and the result is great.
Cool to see so many people coming together and playing different instruments in the second and third clip. Seems like a great time.

updated by @nate: 10/08/25 03:02:12AM

Extended Range Dulcimer

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" Kentucky™ dulcimers are an updated version of the dulcimers made by legendary builder J. E. Thomas of Knott Co. Kentucky ... Thomas' dulcimers are still used as a basis for so many "modern" dulcimers ... My Kentucky™ dulcimer features a deeper body for better volume, bass and mid-range response."

https://gibsondulcimers.com/kentucky_dulcimers.html
updated by @nate: 10/08/25 01:28:41AM

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Skip, in his original post he said "I wish it were a tad longer so that I could get the best of DAA and DAD tuning, allowing me to walk down the fretboard on the melody string alone." Which i assume means that he wants notes below A to be available on the melody string.

@Barnjam you might consider trying to tune your instrument D3A3D3, (you will need to put a bass string where you would normally put a melody string) such that the melody string is the same pitch as the bass string, which would allow you to have a range of D3 to D5 on the melody string, assuming 2 octaves of frets. This would allow you to play "melodies on the bass string" using the first octave of frets on the melody string, and the second octave of frets will correspond to the notes you would normally get on the melody string. It may be the easiest solution, if you like the feel of it, and that gives you the notes you want.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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It means you asked a good question that hits on interesting ideas. :)

It may be helpful to know: what exactly is the range of notes that you would like to have access to on your melody string? 

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I agree completely. For me personally, I think a fretboard should be at least as wide as my pointer, middle, and ring finger's combined width. Anything less and I don't have enough room for chording all three strings across the same fret. Of course that is because I play chording style, and isn't necessarily useful to BarnJam.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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In the past when I built a similar dulcimer I found two serious constraints. One is that the fret placement has to be perfect because even the tiniest most subtle imprecision makes a huge difference. The other is that the frets become impossibly close together. Even on a 34" dulcimer, the 19-21 frets will only be about 1/4 of an inch apart. For someone like me who uses jumbo fretwire, the frets crowns would need to overlap. It would requireusing small fretwire and being very very precise with your fingertips.
But as you said, it is possible, lol.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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That's a good point. In general I've found that low gauge strings tend to have tighter constraints on how high the tension can go, but 13lb seems like it would be manageable. Most of the stuff I've read online says that all string gauges can be brought to a similar tension before breaking if they are made of the same material, but I'm skeptical of that. Eventually I'll have to find out for myself next time i go to the string store.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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The way I interpreted the original question is that he was asking about extending the range of frets in a way that adds extra low notes at the nut end while maintaining diatonic frets for the key of D. Like tuning the instrument DAE and having a fret layout that still contains all the notes of the D major scale starting on E. It's an interesting idea and I've seen a couple of old dulcimers that seemed to be doing something similar, and I might have to try it eventually just for the novelty.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Strumelia could you please elaborate on that?

The "stringjoy string tension calculator" says that a 35" VSL tuned to D4 with a 0.007 gauge string (lowest Ive seen in an ernie ball pack) will have ~13 lb of tension. 

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I think an important question is: do you prefer to only play on the melody string, or would you prefer to be able to fret all three strings?
If you're only fretting the melody string out of compromise, then a wider fretboard could solve your problem.

A dulcimer does not have all the frets of the chromatic scale, which is why the major scale must start on either the open string for DAd (1-5-8) or the 3rd fret for DAA (1-5-5) if you want to have all the notes in the major scale. For this reason, if you wanted to tune the melody string lower than A and still get all the notes of the D major scale, you would have to add extra frets. For example, if you tuned the instrument DAG, there would be no fret for C#, unless you add a 3.5 fret. You could potentially set the fret layout to allow your melody string to be tuned to any note, though it would look strange for some. Or with a chromatic instrument, you could just tune it any old way and always have all the needed frets for your D major scale.

It's possible to tune the melody string lower and add extra frets, but could lead to it's own problems, like if you wanted to play melody on the bass string, your melody string would no longer be a harmonious drone to accompany it.

I see that the dulcimer you showed a photo of has two full octaves of frets plus 3 frets of the third octave. If you have large fingers, it will definitely be difficult to try to fret in those teeny tiny spaces, and if you add more frets to the high end, the gaps between them only get smaller.

The longer the VSL, the more space you'll have between frets in that third octave, but that can only help so much.

updated by @nate: 10/06/25 01:35:04PM

A question about intonating a dulcimer

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Does this apply to a string spacer and a zero fret?


Mike, the nice thing about cutting the slots in the string spacer is that it's nearly impossible to cut them too deep, the only issue could be if you cut them too wide. I would definitely do that before anything else, since it's the most likely issue and also the easiest to fix. Put a couple layers of painters tape over the wood before you start filing, to avoid any accidental damage to the wood.
I am guessing that string spacer was added after the fact by someone who believed they were replacing a nut. I saw a few photos online of other dulcimers from the same company, and their string spacers look pretty different than this one. As others have mentioned, the "zero fret" acts as the nut, and that piece of plastic should just serve to keep the strings the correct distance apart, which is why you should be careful not to make the slots any wider, since that could affect the distance between the strings.
updated by @nate: 09/29/25 03:32:33PM

A question about intonating a dulcimer

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I'm glad you spotted that Skip,
with that in mind, the dime is not needed and only the nickel is necessary, as Ken said. Apologies for the confusion.

A question about intonating a dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

There are three main factors to consider when intonating a dulcimer, the height of the nut, the height of the bridge, and the position of the bridge. 

There is a simple system for intonating a dulcimer which is called the "nickel and dime method" where a dime is placed on the fingerboard just above the first fret so that the side of the dime is touching the nut-facing side of the first fret, so the dime is between the first fret and the nut. A nickel is placed on top of the 7th fret and is between the 7th fret and the string. 

Generally, the nut and bridge should be lowered until the string is just barely touching the face of both of the dime and the nickel.

If your fret wire is taller than average, the dime may not be useful, since the fretwire may be taller than the dime. If that's the case, it may be a little bit more complicated. Using a dime only works for short fret wire, such as a mandolin or ukulele fret wire, and if the instrument has guitar or jumbo fret wire, then determining correct intonation at the nut might be more difficult. 

If you set the string height or "action" using this method and all goes well, but your instrument is still not well intonated, then you may need to adjust the position of the bridge itself.

To do this, tune the string up to the desired note, and then using a tuner check the intonation at the octave fret. 

If the octave fret is sharper than the root note, then the bridge needs to be moved closer toward the nut. If the octave fret is flatter than the root note, then the bridge needs to be moved further away from the nut. 

I hope this helps

Nate

updated by @nate: 09/27/25 08:04:05PM

jubilee

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Very interesting. I have seen them a handful to times at Hindu weddings, where the playstyle is QUITE different, and is much more energetic and rhythmic, but it works surprisingly well as a drone accompaniment as well. Makes sense since you don't actually have to control the speed or force of the bellows at all, so you just flip a switch to the chord you want and don't have to worry about feel or rhythm. Pretty clever.

More or less overtones

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Straight forward, yet ambiguous. Does a presence of many overtones make an instrument sound

More "clear" or "full"

More "nasal" or "broad"

More "refined" or "ambiguous"

More "bright" or "warm"

All the words convey opposite meanings, but "overtones" are used to describe both.

On the dulcimer, what does the term "overtone" say about the tone?

updated by @nate: 09/18/25 05:41:08PM

David Lynch Baritone

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

If the bridge is being held in place by string pressure, rather than being glued down or in a slot, then intonation could be almost completely fixed by simply sliding the bridge about 1/16" to 1/8" closer to the nut. 

If the bridge is fixed in place, then I would agree that it's not worth messing with.

If you are interested in making the simple adjustment to the bridge Id be happy to explain further or give more specific advice based on your VSL and string gauge, but really just scooting it about 1/16th of an inch closer to the nut should mitigate any intonation issues.

I agree with Dusty, though, that it may sound just fine as it is, and there is no harm in putting lighter strings on the instrument to find out.

Either way, its fun to have different dulcimers with different ranges, so whether you leave it or change it, you cant go wrong. :)

updated by @nate: 09/09/25 03:09:44PM

David Lynch Baritone

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Hello Karen. Changing to lower gauge strings will affect the intonation. This could potentially require the saddle to be adjusted by more than 1/8" to compensate.
Is the bridge fixed into place, or can it be adjusted?
If not, the instrument will still be playable with lower gauge strings, but it will be slightly out of tune.

Wedge shaped floating bridge

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I would suspect that the taller end goes under the bass string as well, for the reason Wally mentioned.  A lot of times, I've found that the bass string has more wobble, and buzzes against the frets more easily, so I avoid the problem by setting it just a smidge higher and adjusting the bridge placement accordingly.

How to tune a 22 vsl mountain dulcimer

Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

Your current set up has about 19-23 lb of tension per string. Strings that would give you a similar amount of tension at 22" would be ~0.030, ~ 0.019, and ~0.014.

practicing app

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Very cool looks super easy to use ill definitely check that out later. Thanks for showing this

Introduce Yourself!

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Welcome Paul! 

The photos you have shared are super cool and i look forward to your input. 

How long have you been building instruments? The work you did looks terrific.

I have always loved fossils. My grandfather owned some land with a lot of slate and shale, and i used to have a lot of fun cracking them open.

Hope to see more creations,

Nate

updated by @nate: 08/20/25 06:00:37PM

New to the group, several questions

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

 
Just to clarify, there should easily be over 1200 tuning combinations where each string has a higher pitch tone than the next lowest string. If we assume a standard 4 string tuning like ADad, and that each note could be down tuned by three steps, or uptuned by two, that still leaves 6 individual notes that each string could be tuned to. For an A string, this could be F#, G, G#, A, A#, or B. For a D string this could be B, C, C#, D, D#, or E. 
So since 6 individual notes are available per string, 6x6x6x6=1296 tuning schemes. Of course, there are way more than 6 half steps available for string, making the number much higher than 1200, not lower. In fact, Eb, D, F#, A is not in the 1200 that I mentioned, just based off the starting point of ADAd and only 6 steps of freedom.
updated by @nate: 08/18/25 05:45:03AM

"Extra" frets and JI vs ET

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 A 6.5 is pretty much essential for Dad and other 1-5-8 tunings, but not needed for DAA tuning, and other 1-5-5 tunings.
In Dad tuning, the 6.5 fret corresponds to the note C#, which is an important part of the D major scale. If you're going to get a 6.5, I'd say a 13.5 is also good.
A 1.5 can also be nice, but anything more than that, I would recommend holding off until you actually have a reason to want them.

The question about temperament is pretty complicated, so this answer will be over simplified. The majority of dulcimers with a 6.5 fret are equal temperament, unless they specifically say otherwise. The goal of ET is to make compromises so that none of the intervals between notes are particularly dissonant in any key. It's basically just taking all the intervals and averaging them out to get tones that are generally inoffensive in any key. When a builder chooses a temperament other than ET, the goal is to give certain specific intervals extra harmony at the sacrifice of other intervals. Usually, this means placing the frets in such a way that is optimized for one specific key. This can lead to dissonance when chording and especially when using a capo. However, temperaments like just intonation and meantone sound GREAT in melody drone style.

Playing A Longer VSL

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

I don't think the difference between 24 and 26.5 is that huge. Long stretches like a 1-2-4 chord might be about 1/2 inch further. I would say that hand stretching exercises may be a good way to overcome that extra little bit of reach you'll need.
Personally, I prefer shorter VSL instruments for chording, but when I do play longer dulcimers, it doesn't take too long for my hands to get used to reaching just a little bit further.

I need BASIC dulcimer help - Complete novice

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Could what appears to be a slot near the 6.5 just be discoloration of the wood? In the close up photo it doesnt look like those 'slots' go all the way across the width of the fingerboard. The dulcimer looks great, so it's hard to believe the original builder just left the slot unfilled. You could always put a fret in it and call it "microtonal" lol.

updated by @nate: 07/29/25 02:56:02PM

radius fret-board.

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

In reference to bowed dulcimers, I know there are a lot of types and styles. Personally I just add a radius to the bridge, with the middle string being physically higher than the melody and bass, and call it good there. It makes the intonation a bit trickier, but it solves the challenge of bowing (or plucking) the middle string individually.

I would think that overall, a radiused fingerboard on dulcimer would have a small benefit, but wouldn't be worth the effort. When I made one just out of curiosity, I found that since I wasn't already used to barring chords, it didn't have any immediate benefit for me.

updated by @nate: 07/21/25 02:23:52AM

radius fret-board.

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Personally, i tried making a radiused fretboard once years ago. As far as I understand it, the main benefit of a radiused fretboard is that its easier to apply pressure for things like barre chords. I dont think this matters as much on a dulcimer as on a guitar, since it takes a lot less force to fret a dulcimer in the first place.

Lefties

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Alex, i think it definitely depends on what kind of music is being played. Personally, i dont play very complex rhythms or strum patterns, and to me it feels like my fretting hand is dong a lot more precise movement compared to the strumming hand. It makes sense to me, though, that plucking would be more strenuous than fretting at a high level.

updated by @nate: 07/09/25 12:32:06PM

New to the group, several questions

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Very true Alex!

I find that many combinations of root notes tend to just make things more confusing, which is a fun opportunity to find something new. 

Most of the time, I will alter the tuning in order to achieve specific chords and fit them together into a track, but many of these alternate tunings are fairly difficult for me to play a full song in. Again, it's just an opportunity to try a little harder.

Since I build all my dulcimers, $20 is about my average cost with some being closer to 5 and the most being about 30.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, and I have no doubt you will provide more creative music with creative tunings. 

I hope you have a great day as well, 

Nate

updated by @nate: 06/17/25 04:53:14PM

New to the group, several questions

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Personally, i have a massive pile of strings and quite a few dulcimers(8 at the moment), so I often experiment with different string gauge combinations, each combination having a different range of possible tunings. Alternate tunings are a fun way to keep myself engaged when I'm getting a little bored and don't know what to do about it.

I would assume that you can probably do a lot more with them than I could, given your background. 

New to the group, several questions

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

If each string can be tuned down 3 steps or up 2 steps, that is 6 possible notes per string, which I think amounts to 1200 possible combinations on a 4 string dulcimer. Then it's just a matter of finding the ones that are actually useful lol. I personally am a big fan of ADAd and DAdf#, but as you said, there are so many options.

Are string breaks dangerous?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Richard, I am very paranoid when tuning a new instrument and I wear protective goggles when I do, but I have a lot of dulcimers with old strings and I am always worried that one will break while Im playing. Unfortunately goggles arent always an option, so I'm mostly trying to gauge what a worst case scenario would look like. 

Robin, I could definitely imagine that it hurts. I personally take a mechanical pencil and scribble some graphite into the slots before putting the strings on, and this helps a lot with friction at the nut. 

Jamie, that is good to hear, and I imagine that where it whips is somewhat erratic, so I hope that stays consistent for you. It's good to hear that nobody has an instance of being whipped in the face. 

Thanks all

New to the group, several questions

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Welcome Alex, glad to have you here. I enjoyed the song you posted.
 To answer your questions 
1:  There are some players I've seen that don't seem to use their thumb very much at all, unless it's to make a stretch while holding a chord shape. Stephen Siefert and Aaron O'rourke come to mind. It does look  more comfortable on the wrist.

2: I am right handed, and I've often felt like the left hand is doing harder work than the right on a dulcimer. It might be an advantage to play right handed if you're left handed.

3: I do. It can be a good source of inspiration. I usually stick to 1-5-8 tunings in various keys, but I've recently been playing more 4 string, which opens up a lot more opportunities. 

4: I learned dulcimer with tab, since there is such a huge number of tabs available. Staff notation is a bit intimidating for me, especially when I change keys or modes. I only use it when I have to, like if I'm playing with others and they are using it.

Are string breaks dangerous?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hey folks. I use pretty heavy gauge strings on my dulcimers and don't change them very often. So far, I haven't had a string break while playing, but I've always been kind of paranoid, since my face is directly above the strings. My fear is that the string will snap, whip up, and hit me in the eye faster than I can blink. I'm just hoping for some anecdotes about strings breaking while playing: if anyone has ever been hurt by one and where the strings tend to go when they do break.
Thanks,
Nate

storing an instrument

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

That makes sense wally, thanks.

It seems there are a lot of different aspects of the build that could affect how it handles tension. Bracing, full length fretboard vs discontinuous, whether the fingerboard is hollowed, how deep the strumhollow is, how thin the boards are, how high you keep your tension, etc. 

It makes sense to me that the ends of the fingerboard would slowly and gradually bow upward, but with a quality dulcimer it sounds like the consensus is that it's negligible.

storing an instrument

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

"but, in my opinion, the minute aspects of wooden bodies' shapes are better preserved if string tension it maintained. "

Im curious to know more about this Wally. Are you basically saying that the wood "settles" when its kept under the correct amount of tension?  Or that the changes in tension would put more stress on the wood cells/finish? Both of those would make sense to me.

storing an instrument

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Id say that detuning the strings by just a little bit is a good idea. While some instruments seem to hold up really well to warping over time...other fare less well. Damage from tension, sunlight, or moisture would be cumulative over a long time. So overall, I'd say that you dont need to be overly concerned, but it's probably better to store it with the strings somewhat detuned if youre not planning on playing it for a while. It would probably only make a small difference over a long time though, if at all.

tuning pegs

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

That is the same impression I got, matt. On very simple instruments you often see these types of screws that are meant to hold the tension of the string, and typically they cannot support more than 10 lb at most

Anything beyond that starts to dig into the plastic

updated by @nate: 05/05/25 03:51:32PM