Forum Activity for @robin-clark

I tend to up the string gauges for noter drone playing, particularly for the melody string (I like just one melody string).  I like working a heavy melody string with a reasonably stiff pick.  There is a volume difference from different string gauges - the key being to match the string gauge to the pitch used at an optimal tension for the string's performance - but that also has to match your playing style.  In my opinion, dulcimer string gauges are generally too light.  Early instruments would have typically had heavier strings and, when played in noter drone style, would have been quite loud instruments.

Switch to a single melody string (0.012 or 0.013 for A), move the (now 3) drones closer together and be particular about your tuning accuracy.  DAA A will work OK to start with.  DAd A is good for tunes that emphasise the 4th, 2nd or 6th of the scale.  EAA A is another great tuning (key of A).  Record your playing and listen back to the sound - then think about adjusting the melody to drone balance (pitch and gauge) depending on what you hear in the recordings.

I'm using Soundbrenner on an Android phone at present (just the free app not the gadgets that can go with it).  It is OK and easy to use.

Most importantly, I searched for one with a 'tap' button - and I use that all the time to set the speed.  It means I can hum a tune and easily tap in exactly the speed I want to play it at.

I have one customer who plays a 27.5" VSL dulcimer with 0.024, 0.012, 2 x 0.010 string gauges up at F,C,f,f above D,A,d,d on stage and when recording.

https://www.threeleggdmare.com/

There's definitely a balance between pitch, string gauge and scale length.  For a given VSL there will be a physical top pitch and bottom pitch you could reach irrespective of the string gauges you try.  This is because every string has an optimum tension at which it will vibrate the best.  A good way to get an indication of this is to look at other instruments VSLs, such as mandolin or guitar, and compare where their standard string gauges and pitches lay against your dulcimer's VSL.

Bridge - Try DAAA with the melody A string, when played at the 3rd fret, matching the bass D string but an octave higher.  The A melody string will end up sharp of A at the zero fret.  Now you can place your screwdriver 'nut' under just the melody string and adjust it until the open A matches the middle drones while keeping the 3rd fret 'd' an octave above the bass string.  The instrument was built to be played melody against drones with only the melody string fretted to play a tune (either with a noter of a finger).  Your issue is simply that the zero fret is in the wrong place.

Your DAAd tuning will exacerbate the issue of the 1st fret position.  These fret patterns are supposed to have the 1st fret sounding the 6th of the scale (naturally 182 cents above the 5th).  Your DAAd tuning makes the 1st fret the second of the scale (naturally 204 cents from the root note) - hence you probably have the screwdriver placed too far left.  DAAd will sound OKish but you are actually not getting the best from the dulcimer as other frets further up will be thrown out.

Jim - That's a great piece of work!  Very interesting how many makers ended up with JI, either because they set their frets by ear or because they copied the fret pattern from another maker who did.

Following my tuning suggestion you are likely to end up with DAA drones and A slightly sharp as the melody string if you aim to have that 3rd fret 'd' on the melody matching the bass drone (but an octave higher).  And, yes, 3 drones and one melody was fairly common.  Jean Ritchie had her dulcimer set up like this from around 1960 onward, so many folks would have been influenced by her.  Your string gauges should be fine for the tuning.

Thanks for the measurements.  I have measured my Ledford and Warren May (setting the ruler so that the 7th fret was at 335) and what you have is a very close copy of those fret patterns - Except - your zero fret position lines up with the front edge of the nut slot on those instruments.  The string release point on those nuts is a good 2 mm closer to the pegs, and the nuts are high.  There's the cause of your flat scale.  Your first fret is also slightly too close to the nut compared to the Ledford or May.  The rest of your frets are spot on or within .5mm of those makers (just intonation).  So I suggest that this was a copied fret pattern but the use of a zero fret rather than a high nut has introduced an error.

You will have a job trying to match the scale to an electronic tuner because the 3rd, 6th and 7th of the scale fall naturally flat of equal temperament.  But if you tune the melody string so that the 3rd fret sounds 'd' (the open string will be slightly sharp of A) the instrument should play OK except for the open note (and possibly the 1st fret may be a little flat).  However, you can find that open note in tune on the middle drones. 

Well, this 'problem' fretting on older dulcimers can have many causes - and it often takes a little investigation to get yourself into the mind-set of the maker.

Firstly - let's assume that there are no construction errors and talk briefly about setting frets.  It is impossible to set frets by ear to equal temperament without an external reference (such as an electronic tuner or precision tuning forks).  It is easy to set frets by ear to just intonation using an open string as a reference note.  So, this second method is how many early dulcimer makers would place their frets.  One string would be tuned to 'a good note' and a second string would be tuned a 5th above or to the same note.  A piece of wire would be slid along the fretboard under the melody string to each point of least dissonance sounding between the open string and melody string (starting with the low hanging fruit like the octave 5ths, 4ths and 3rds) and the position marked.  If the maker had tuned root and 5th for his two strings the 6th of the scale (the 1st and 8th frets) will be flatter than if the maker used unison strings.  You can spot this visually on old dulcimers.  For example the John Maxwell in Jim Hedman's post below was probably set or derived from a root and 5th by-ear fret set.  Whereas a Pressnell or Melton was fretted from unison.

Secondly - Fret patterns set by ear are string gauge, tuned pitch and action dependant.  You cannot effectively copy them from one dulcimer to the next without keeping all these criteria the same.  Yet many maker did just this.  They would take a template from one dulcimer and use it for the next.  Nut position and height are particularly crucial with little margin for error.  String gauge and tuned pitch can also have a large effect; normally because the original instrument was running a high action and high string tension (as was the norm on early dulcimers).  I have come across many old dulcimers that were well out of tune because the action had been lowered and thin strings fitted.

Thirdly - The frets on old dulcimers are set just for the melody string(s).  You cannot fret a string tuned to another pitch alongside the melody string.  So playing chords in DAd will give you 'off' notes.  It is this issue that equal temperament solves!

Fourthly - On the Tulip dulcimer below it looks like the 3rd and 6th of the scale are flattened (1st, 5th, 8th frets), which suggests a 1-5-5-5 tuning rather than unison.  You say the notes are flat up to the octave 7th fret with the bridge set correctly?  Then that suggests that the zero fret is a little off.  Set the bridge so the 7th fret plays the octave.  Tune to D,A,A for your drones then tune the melody string so it sounds a 'd' note at the 3rd fret an octave above the bass string.  Play the scale on the melody string against the drones.  If it sounds OK (see below) except for the open melody string sounding sharp then your problem is simply the zero fret position.  My guess (and it is just that) would be that the maker took a fret template from an older dulcimer with a bridge but fitted a zero fret.  A bridge in the same position as that zero fret(particularly a high one on an old dulcimer) would have made those first half a dozen frets pull sharper.

Fifthly - The difference between equal temperament and just intonation:  In equal temperament the gap between each semitone is adjusted to be 100 cents (an octave being split into 1200 equal parts).  However, perfect intervals are formed from the physics of string movement.  For example: if you half a strings length you get an octave; two thirds of the length will sound a 5th, a three quarters of the length will sound a 4th; four fifths of the length will sound a 3rd etc.  These perfect intervals are how we naturally sing and how we naturally blend notes to make harmonies.  They differ slightly from the maths of equal temperament but are much easier to find by ear.  However it does mean that notes 'move'.  So the note B in the key of G is actually different to the note B if you sang it in the key of E.  The piano and guitar (plus other instruments that modulate) cannot cope with this!!!  So equal temperament evens up those difference by placing every note just a little out of tune.  It is mathematically perfect but does not equate to natural sound vibrations.  So it is not possible to set frets by ear to equal temperament because you can't hear when the notes are 'right' because they are actually 'wrong'!!!.  Following the natural harmonies is much simpler, which is why old dulcimers tend to be fretted in just intonation. 

  Strumelia - I think it is good we can have these debates.  And I am more than prepared to shift my position as new information comes my way, because that's how we learn!   Jean Ritchie was sooooo unique, in my opinion, in the way she used the instrument with her voice to play and sing the ballads from her cultural reference.  But we can go into that another time!!!!

What you say about a plethora of 'traditions' is so true - as is the debate about what 'traditional' means!  Particularly when we are focusing on very few people over a very small period of time in a very young and dynamic culture!  And that history has been clouded by the early folklorists lens on 'simple mountain folk'.

I made a box dulcimer just before Christmas (the story is here  ) and I left it with the pile of scrap wood from the village shed build.  A friend of mine found it and has tucked it away in a cupboard at the village hall.  He said "You know that someone is going to find that box in 100 years time and write a PhD about it"  

That certainly got me thinking about 'tradition' and how it starts with something new.  So I thought I'd see if folks in the village wanted to make a new Welsh instrument, based around what we've come to call the Tennessee music box (which David Schnaufer thought may have been distributed by the Romani families originally from Wales), but with some modifications such as zither pins, nut and bridge, to suit the Welsh hymns, folk songs and twmpath tunes carried to the parish where I live by the Romani Cymreig families when they visited each year.  The flyers are written and will be distbuted this weekend - so we'll see what happens!

Robin

Bocs Can Idris - flyer.pdf - 318KB

Yes, Jean was exceptional.  It was her I was thinking about when I picked the 40s (I should have gone earlier!).  But she was exceptional - as a musician.  And her teaching herself to re-tune for minor tunes sort of reinforces that in her community players didn't re-tune.  Her father didn't re-tune and therefore neither did Ed Thomas (Jean sat at the feet of them both).  If Ed didn't re-tune then neither did players in the areas he passed through.  He was supposedly quite a player so you could be darn sure he would have shown an interest!  The Mawhee family (1870s onward) never re-tuned - I got a message through to Don before he died who confirmed that.  The Meltons never re-tuned up until Raymond, and it could well have been Phyllis Gaskins who showed him minor tunings.  The Hicks, Presnell, Glens, Proffitts - N Carolina families never re-tuned; I asked RLS.  And there are recordings of Nettie playing minor tunes from a major tuning.  The Braxton County core of players never re-tuned beyond some of them moving from unison to 1-5-5 in the 40s (perhaps 30s) - that's in Play of a Fiddle.

I'm sure that someone would have worked out how to re-tune for a minor song somewhere.  But in some respects the weight of examples we actually have where families/communities did not retune makes the instrument even more unique don't you think?

What I would say is that I don't think (due to the actual evidence we do have - scant though it is) that switching 'modes', particularly to minor modes, is part of a traditional playing style on the dulcimer.  Remember we had this conversation with Stephen Seifert a few years back?  He said he'd played a number of antique dulcimers and couldn't get them to tune to minor modes well.  I was of the same opinion as you at the time - there must have been re-tuning because all the other mountain instruments re-tuned.  Well I've changed my mind on that.  I just haven't found any evidence (and I've looked!!!!).  And, having played a number of antique instruments I'd have to agree with Stephen that because the fretting in not in equal temperament (usually closer to just intonation because it is easier to set by ear) the minor modes are 'out'.  So, if you did tweak a tuner or two the end result is not going to be pleasing particularly in Dorian.  I've not played a Thomas but I have played an Amburgey and that fret pattern was possibly OKish in Aeolian - which was where Jean tended to go for minor tunes.

I'm pretty convinced that the 'modes' as we teach them are just not a part of dulcimer history.

And interestingly I've noticed that I'll take say a Glen dulcimer away with me for a week in my campervan, play dozens of tunes every day and not move from 1-5-5 or unison if that's where I start.

I agree with Strumelia that traditional 'sounding' has as much to do with playing style, dulcimer set-up and repertoire as tuning.

Both Kens make some great points about the tunings that were used prior to the folk revival of the 60s.

From the research I have done, I would say there were primarily two 'traditional' tunings for the Appalachian dulcimer.  These were some sort of 1-5-5 tuning (such as DAA or CGG or Gdd etc) and some sort of unison tuning such as Ccc or ddd(d).  Both centred the scale at the 3rd fret (Ionian scale) but unison could also be played from the nut (mixolidian scale).

Different communities built different dulcimers and generally would have used one of these two tuning systems and pretty much stuck with it.

There were very good reasons why you may choose either tuning as a dulcimer maker and player.  Unison tuning only needs one gauge of piano wire - so you could buy one roll of wire to make all your strings.  Mind you, you can get away with some 1-5-5 tunings on some old dulcimers also just using one gauge of piano wire (the Mawhee dulcimer was tuned to G,d,d for example that was strung with No8 wire for all 3 strings).  But it is nice also to have that root note in the drones rather than just 5ths, so 1-5-5 was popular with some makers, who were prepared to use different wire gauges.

There is very little (none that I've found) evidence that pre 1940s players shifted tuning - they were more likely to move the tune to fit the instrument's tuning than change the tuning to fit the tune!!!

Unfortunately, there's lots missing in our knowledge of the traditional dulcimer sound.  You really have to search to piece the evidence together about tunings, playing styles, dulcimer set-ups and repertoire and there are very few early recordings to help.

What I can say is that DAd was not used traditionally.  You certainly couldn't get into it with just one string gauge (it is a struggle with two as tuning the one gauge to both A and that high 'd' is problematic for wooden pegs) and it is limited to just the mixolidian scale from the nut.  It is not a natural or pragmatic tuning for an old dulcimer.

Robin

PS I was writing while Dan and Lisa posted.  Dan makes some good points about traditional design and bridge/nut position.  And Lisa, I'd be hard pressed to 'hear' the difference between DAd and DAA played noter drone - the non traditional aspect of DAd is not the tuning's sound but its practicality.

Hi Gale,

I wouldn't look to spend too much on a pick-up system if you just intend to plug your dulcimer into a small amp like the Kala one you have.  Although, as Dusty says, a mic' will give good quality sound, that amp will not take a dynamic mic' like the SM57.

The simple solution I would suggest would be some sort of clip or stick on peizo pick-up.  I played a gig last week and used a cheap Cherub WCP-60V violin pick-up (less then $10 from Amazon).  The pick-up has a long slender clip that will fit into almost any dulcimer sound hole.  You could plug this direct into your Kala amp and, with some experimentation on positioning, should give an OK sound.  You can improve the sound by wrapping an elastic band around the clip to make it pinch together a little firmer.

If you want a better tone (peizo pick-ups can be a little harsh) then you can add a cheap pre-amp.  I use the Behringer V-tone Acoustic ADI 21 for gigs.  It is a great bit of kit for improving the sound of cheap pick-ups and lifting their output to line level.  It is a little technical to explain but basically this box will allow you to plug your dulcimer into any amp or p/a system and control the tone and volume.  When using it I can get one of those cheap Cherub pick-ups to sound very natural through a small acoustic guitar amp or into a p/a system.  They are about $30 from Amazon (remember to get an additional lead to plug the box into your amp).

Overall a mic' will give the very best sound but only if it is plugged into a very good sound system.  When using small guitar amps cheaper solutions are a more pragmatic option.

That would be very unusual for DAA TAB.  Are you sure it is not DAd TAB?

Never Don,  my personal preference is for a pure diatonic fret board with no extra frets at all.  I find it much easier and cleaner when using a noter.  The standard 6 1/2 and 13 1/2 frets are pretty nonsensical notes when playing in DAA.  And re-tuning for other modes is pretty straightforward.  I do sometimes use a 6 1/2 for Galax dulcimer playing from d,d,d,d and e,e,d,d

Have a look at the Sacred Harp hymns.  They tend to be written in simple standard music notation for multi-part harmonies and many of them work well for noter drone playing.  Here is Supplication played on an old  Jethro Amburgey dulcimer with a two part harmony.  I agree with Lisa when she says to lay back off the drones.

https://soundcloud.com/robin-clark-937720894/supplication-jethro-amburgey-dulcimer-25-feb-15

My guess is that the dulcimer could be a more recent Ledford rather than an early one.  He was often asked for his 'old style' 3 strings with staple frets even at a time when most players wanted 4 string dulcimers with guitar frets.  I have no idea why there's no label?  Is it possible the number is scratched or pencilled on the inside somewhere?

I've just wound up a guitar business.  We would badge and number all our guitars.  But sometimes we got the numbers and letters out of sequence when we stamped them (it is easy to do if you are a bit dyslexic !); sometimes I'd allocated batches of numbers to an assistant but then they didn't use them all; sometimes customers wanted a special number; sometimes customers didn't want the badge on the outside so we hid it internally or didn't fit one at all; sometimes we wrote the number in pencil internally rather than stamping the headstock; sometimes folks wanted no markings on the guitar.  In years to come anyone trying to trace the lineage one of the 1200 or so guitars I produced could well find anomalies in about 5% of cases.  So I'm not too surprised that a Ledford without a label has turned up - musical instrument workshops are a little more 'organic' than say an aircraft parts factory!!!

I'm surprised we've not had: Water the fretboard and rub in some compost to see if it will grow a little

I was actually asked the question by a player who has a Sobel dulcimer - and, although the hacksaw idea had already come to mind I did wonder if one the current commercial ones may fit?

The pic in kusani's photo certain looks like the frets are set in just intonation (flattened 3rds and flattened 6ths).  It should play beautifully in DAA (or DAAA for 4 string equidistant).  I'm sure that around the time (60s and 70s) a few observant makers would have copied Jean Ritchie's 4 string equidistant set-up where she played a single melody string with a noter and had 3 x drones - usually DAA - as no doubt customers would ask for it.  A number of makers around that time were using a just intonated fret placement as it is the natural fret position for DAA playing.  However, in areas where unison tuning had a long tradition the fret pattern would have been slightly different.

Does anyone know of a capo that would fit a low fretboard: Height 10mm, width 32mm

Thanks,

Robin

Hi Sheryl,

That's great news!

Nettie used C,c,c and you can find some examples of her playing on the web. However, she also used 1-5-5 latterly. I think that unison tuning was probably the Hicks family tuning and her switch to 1-5-5 was influenced by meeting other players like RLS. The 6+ makes sense in 1-1-1 and Ed told RLS that he put it on so Nettie could play those pretty Christmas tunes.

Some of the Presnell dulcimers don't play well if you tune the strings open. You need to tune the drones to the fretted root note - the 7th fret in 1-1-1 From what I've heard of Nettie's playing she never went down that low. Her playing was concentrated around the 7th fret root. Hence the long scale giving her more room up the top of the fretboard.

My Presnell plays well fro the nut so I think she was already regularly using 1-5-5 as well as 1-1-1 at the time it was built.

Hi Sheryl,

I managed to buy an I.D Stamper dulcimer last week - one of his long scale ones that he used for those A minor slack key tunes like 900 miles and Darlin Cory so my Presnell is going back to the C,c,c tuning that Nettie Presnell used.  Hopefully the Stamper dulcimer will be here in a couple of weeks although clearing dulcimers through UK customs is taking weeks at present!!!!

The first dulcimer is a Presnell the second looks like a Hicks (he also built mountain banjos) - the large hearts and sloping shoulders make Hicks a possibility.  Pricing is difficult because so few of these dulcimers come up for sale.  They sort of have two prices - the first price is a players price; basically what the instrument is worth to a dulcimer musician.  There are very few of us who actually play, gig and record with these old dulcimers.  So the player's pricing for a Presnell is around $350-$450 and the Hicks about the same.  So about the price of a new McSpadden.  If you can get the Hicks for under $350 I'd certainly be interested if you didn't want to keep it (I have a Presnell).  The second price is the collectors price - it is to the long term advantage of a collector to push the purchase price up, so your guess is as good as mine on that score but sometimes these old dulcimers go for silly money if two collectors are bidding.

Personally speaking, I think that wherever possible we should try and keep these old instruments within the dulcimer playing community.

Tabledit will do the job - but it does take a little time to get to know the programme.  It is a very capable programme but takes a bit of time and effort to learn to use it when you first start.

Thanks Robin - I do like the sound of a well played Irish flute.  I've seem Mike McGoldrick play a number of times at festivals and he joined me on dulcimer, Nick on banjo and Mike Harding on mandolin for a couple of tunes outside the beer tent at SFF a few years ago - that was a real treat!  Its going to take me a good while to reach my 10,000 hours of practice to play like him

I have a new toy

I've long been after a melody instrument for playing at sessions that has a bit of gravitas and would be a challenge to learn.  I thought of the fiddle but we already have a fiddler in the house so I looked elsewhere.  I'd seen some wonderful Irish D flute players at sessions and gigs and had the idea of learning to play one in the back of my mind.  This summer at Shrewsbury Folk Festival I met Jem Hammond.  He was running some of the tune workshops and I got the chance to talk with him in the bar.  He showed me the different types of flute he played, with keys and without, and suggested I buy a Gary Somers aluminium flute with a delrin head.  He had one with him and said that they were well made with a great embouchure hole and solid tone across the octaves.

I emailed Gary in Brazil and he pointed me towards a shop in the UK that had one.  Luckily I was working in Canterbury, where the shop was, a couple of weeks ago so I called them and collected the flute.  I went straight from Canterbury to Lundy Island for a week's rock climbing.  So as well as my dulcimer I also had a new flute to take across to the Island   I carried the flute when walking around the island to various climbing areas and eventually managed to get a scale out of it!!!  Getting any noise from it at all was (and still is) a bit hit or miss but my embouchure is starting to come.  Having heard Jem play the same model of flute I know that there's bags of rich tone hidden within it and the more I practice the more I'll find.

I love the fact that it is such a kinaesthetic instrument to play and that the tone and intonation come from the player's skill.  Like golf, as a beginner you'll hit one or two shots in a round that really feel good and with the flute I'll hit one or two notes that just resonate.  I'm hoping that the more I play the more of those good notes I'll be able to hit and the stronger my overall tone will be.

Right now, a couple of weeks in, I'm at the very much a beginner stage.  It is doing me good to struggle through the learning process.  I've just recorded myself for the first time this morning coffee break so I can assess what I need to work on (mmm.... breath, tone and intonation would be good starters!!!!)

http://k003.kiwi6.com/hotlink/7ox922snmt/Calon_Lan_-_flute_-_5_Oct_16.mp3

Hi Ken,

What I've found is that it becomes quite a symbiotic relationship between the instruments.  The guitar can really work in support of the melody and the dulcimer gives the guitar direction.  For Elzic's Farewell I was using primarily one and two fingered chords on the guitar and one 3 fingered inversion.  There are some basic chord charts for DADGAD to get you going, like this one here  but once you get the concept of playing guitar against drones (like a dulcimer!) you can make up your own chords (or rather partial chords) to suit the piece.  I've panned the instruments left and right in the above recording so with headphones on you should be able to pick out what the guitar is doing. Now I'm no great guitarist, I hardly ever play for pleasure and find standard guitar tuning a struggle but I managed to sit down at a friends house the other night and pick out a lot of tunes by ear from DADGAD (Will the circle, You are my sunshine, Shady Grove, OJC, Wayfaring Stranger, Wagon Wheel, I'll Fly Away etc) just as we were sitting and chatting.

I think it is definitely worth a try if your guitarist friend is prepared to experiment a little and step out of their comfort zone!

I've had the chance to sit down in my front lounge this evening and record an example of noter drone dulcimer with DADGAD guitar backing.  One of the great things about DADGAD is that it is essentially neither major or minor - it is the noter drone dulcimer that actually tells your ears the guitar is playing minor or major chords (which it is not!).  There's quite a bit of myth busting going on here - that's a 3 string dulcimer in dorian tuning with wooden pegs and an old Leonard Glen by ear intonated fret pattern.  And it is being played noter drone style with guitar.  When I first started playing dulcimer the common wisdom was that such a combination was impossible to play in tune.  Well what a load of ??**@$%%  What I can say is that neither instrument has been anywhere near an electronic tuner - the 9 strings were blended by ear.

I was on a rock climbing trip to Lundy Island a couple of weeks ago and met a great guitarist.  I had a dulcimer with me so we worked up a few tunes together.  He played in DADGAD.  Just before the trip I'd started to experiment with the DADGAD as backing for noter drone dulcimer.  However on Lundy I had a golden opportunity to play live with a great backing guitarist and really hear the potential of the combination. 

It was an absolute delight to work the dulcimer against such a complimentary backing and we fired off fiddle tunes during the evenings we spent staying in the Old Lighthouse on the island.  On the last night we ventured to the Marisco Tavern and played a session in the bar.  I found a seagull leg bone on the cliffs and using that as a strummer certainly gave my dulcimer a very solid 'voice' in the pub!!!

Since returning home I've been working on my own guitar playing in DADGAD and have been surprised just how intuitive it is to both play melody and back-up for old time fiddle tunes.  Now, there could be an 'issue' with old time purists but seeing as how the guitar was a late comer to old time and the fact I've heard some early recordings backed by open tuned guitar DADGAD sits well with me - and it certainly sits well with noter drone dulcimer!

I'll try and record something this week and post it here.  But I did wonder if anyone here plays DADGAD and in what context?

Robin

Wonderful

I switch on my metronome!

I usually have only a very short time to learn and memorise and then record any new piece. As soon as I can just about play it I then switch on my metronome and play. If I make a mistake I leave the metronome on and pick up the tune a few measures before the error.

This technique forces the physical muscle memory for that tune into the non-conscious and ties the sound to your physical movement. I can memorise new tunes very quickly and get them to full playing speed using this technique.

You can certainly play a just intonated dulcimer with other instruments, particularly if they are providing backing such as guitar chords.  If you are having problems with things sounding 'off' then it is more than likely the instruments are not tuned correctly to blend.  It is true that some specific notes of the scale between the instruments will be slightly different but if you are not both sustaining that particular note in isolation then you are not going to hear the differences.  I play old dulcimers all the time with other instruments and JI really is not a problem - however, generally, tuning is an issue when playing any two or more instruments together.  And that's where you should spend some time, getting the instruments in tune with each other.

In any bluegrass string band you have some instruments in equal temperament (guitar, banjo, mandolin) and some in just intonation or Pythagorean 5ths (dobro, violin, bass) and then the voices will be in natural intonation for the harmonies.  So it really does all work together OK.

The 'problem' with JI on dulcimers is that DAd chording doesn't work for some chords; the 1,0,1 A chord is a particular problem as in DAd the first fret is played as the 2nd of the scale whereas in DAA the first fret is played as the 6th of the scale.

There probably was a couple of ways early builders set the frets using another string as a reference.  The first was to have the bass string as the root note as in DAA with the melody string a 5th above - this will lead to the first fret being closer to the nut than it is to the second.  The other system could have been to use two strings in unison as the reference as in D,d,d so the frets were set against a 5th drone.  This will lead to the 1st fret being positioned a little sharper although still being the 6th of the scale.  And, yes, there are in fact two potential positions for the 6th of the scale when set by ear, both of which sound OK.  In fact, the classical Indian just intonation diatonic scale give the option of either position for the 6th.  So you will see some old dulcimers with what looks like a more 'normal' position for the first fret even though the dulcimer was built for playing the scale from the 3rd fret rather than the nut.  In these cases it is likely that the maker used two strings tuned in unison when setting the frets by ear.  Now I can't prove any of this as being exactly how early makers set their frets but I can say that if you use these techniques you will end up with fret placements that match a number of old dulcimers!

For the Heritage dulcimer project I used the later Leonard Glen fret pattern.  He actually has two different 6ths on his dulcimers.  The first fret in slightly sharper than Ptolemy's calculations but the 11th fret is just intonated.  This gives a shade more flexibility of tunings and, as you are never going to play those two frets together, having two different notes for the 6th of the scale doesn't matter.

The bottom line is that most folks are not going to hear the difference between equal temperament and just intonation when instruments play together.  But you really will notice the sourness if you try to play an older Warren May in DAd.  However, playing a Warren May in DAA with other dulcimers in DAd should not be an issue as I can guarantee that any group of dulcimer players will not all be so accurately in tune that you'd be able to specifically hear the very slight difference of the just intonated notes in the general cacophony!!!

Hi Dave,

I'm sure you'll get on just fine with wooden pegs.  I have to say that I love them.  I love the physical relationship I get with the instrument at the stat of each playing session from setting the pegs - it is a real organic task.  It's not difficult to tune something like an Ed Thomas replica to itself.  I start with the bass string and get that to the note I want - you don't have to be that accurate unless you are playing with others, just somewhere around D is a good start.  Then I tune the melody string by ear a perfect 5th above the bass string and check that the 3rd fret on the melody string is the octave of the bass.  It can take a little time to get this just right.  Then I tune the middle string to match the melody string.  A couple of tricks with pegs are to pull them out a little so they turn easy and push them in to stop them slipping.  Also, I make sure that the last winding where the string leaves the peg toward the nut is right up against the peg head side wall as that will make tuning easier and help stop the peg slipping.

Let me know when you get your dulcimer and we can have some fun on Skype

Hi Dave - Are you sure you want to venture into the dark side   The resources for learning early style noter drone tend to be scattered and do take some searching out.  You've had some great pointers already   My advice would be:

1. Noter drone is playing is tough to get sounding 'musical' compared to modern chord melody DAd playing.  Many pieces are held together by the melody so your phrasing and timing have to be spot on.  Imagine switching from playing a guitar to playing a flute as a metaphor for switching style between chord melody and noter drone. 

2. Your right hand is going to set the feel of the tune, so 'skill with a quill' is a where it is all at.  Jean Ritchie's vertical quill style is a little hard to get hold of at first.  Be flexible with your wrist and work off an in-strum lead stroke.  The cut of the quill end has a BIG impact on tone, so experiment.  You'll need lots of quills because they don't last.  You'll be re-cutting the quill end every session you play. (I really should make a video about using vertical quills!!!!)

3. The thumb strum is a great and old technique for noter drone playing - good for slow tunes.  Jean Ritchie used it just as much as she used a quill.  It gives a very defined melody string sound.

4. Start with a simple wooden dowel about 3" long as a noter and practice different grips.  Personally I use guided grips because of their accuracy.  If you go to the old style noter drone players group page here on FOTMD you'll find links to additional pages on the right hand side under the title 'Group Pages'.  There's a whole bunch of stuff there about using a noter.

5. Have an aim in mind.  Christmas carols sound great in noter drone style so perhaps aiming to play a Christmas concert would be a good one to go for.

6.  Using a single melody string can be easier than using a melody pair.

7.  Start with DAA (a 1-5-5 tuning) as it is possibly the easiest starting point.  I tune all over place but 1-5-5 is the tuning I use most.

8.  If you want to Skype me so I can get you started I'd be happy to help.  Your posts on ED about dulcimer history have been excellent so I'd like to give something back.

Robin

Rookie mistakes?  Mmmm.......

Fire and Forget - Playing a tune while hearing in your head what you think the tune should sound like rather than actually 'listening' to the end result you are producing.

Believing too hard - Holding on to a theory of how to do something or how something works despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  That evidence is the sound coming from your instrument, so we are back to listening again.

Not realising playing is physical - To make your dulcimer make a noise you have to do something physical with the strings.  All the theory and everything else boils down to your touch on the instrument.  Playing is a physical activity so train your physical movements and 'listen' to your results.

Timing is Everything - Buy a metronome and use it.  It will give you great timing and it will keep you in the moment.  If you can hear the metronome and hear your own playing at the same time you are on the way to learning how to listen to what's really happening when you play.

Always aim to do something differently - When you pick up your dulcimer have the aim of playing differently by the time to put it down to the way you play right now.  To improve/learn you must do something physically different to make the instrument sound different.  You won't know what physically you have to do differently, so try things out and 'listen' to the results.  Repetitive practice is about honing skills but even with repetitive practice you must end up making physical changes to the way you play in order to improve the sounds you produce.  Again, you must listen to your real results in real time.

Music is too complex to be cognitive - The goal of practice is to make physical movements non-conscious (like they are when you drive a car) so you can free up cognitive space to 'read the road' ie listen to what you are actually playing.  Do everything you can to make the physical side of playing intuitive.

Ditch the TAB - TAB is good to learn where the notes are for a tune but ditch it as quickly as you can.  It sucks away cognitive capacity and removes you from being in the moment.  It makes you deaf to the link between your physical movement and the music those movements create in real time.

Mindfulness - Music is about being grounded in the moment.  So be there with your instrument.  If you can tell me what you are thinking when you are playing then you are not grounded with your dulcimer.

And, like many have said before, its a never ending journey so enjoy your travels and remember:

It is all about the music - so make that the centre of your learning.

I've heard that prior to the arrival of colonists from the Europe in the 17th/18th Century with their zithers the 'American Bald Eagle' was known as the 'American Big Bushy Feather-Headed Eagle'

Ahh - one of my favourite topics!  My advice would be to try every material you can get your hands on.  Try every type of grip.  Try every strumming style/direction.

I'm constantly looking for the right tone and feel for each piece of music I play and each situation I play it.  Before I record a piece of music I'll have gone through at least half a dozen right hand options for picks and strumming styles to find THE tone for that piece of music at that time.  I think that developing your own tone is fundamental to learning the instrument.

I have a number of 'picks' in my box including off-cuts of boot leather shaped and sanded in various ways, thick goose quill ends in various cuts or uncut, pieces of wood made into strummers, long 'whipping' quills  and, of course, the thumb strum.  I also carry a few guitar picks of various grades but rarely use them (although I do in some situations, particularly when playing chord melody tunes in DAd).

Leather can give a nice rounded tone but it all depends on how the piece is shaped (as with all picks).  I get free off-cuts from our local shoe repair shop.

The three right hand techniques I use the most because they usually give me the best tone for my style of playing are the vertical quill butt, the horizontal whipped quill and the thumb strum.  A good percentage of early dulcimer players used these techniques a lot too - because of the tone they generate for noter drone playing.

So I would recommend spending a lot of your practice time trying different picks and strumming styles.

Try this experiment:  Put your right hand behind your back and hold down a note or chord with your left hand - listen to your dulcimer.  Then put your left hand behind your back and strum your dulcimer with a pick in your right hand - listen to your dulcimer.  From that you can decide which of your hands it is that actually makes the sound come from your instrument - and that's the hand you want to spend 90% of your time developing

(You've got it!  In general we spend all our time focussing on the wrong hand when we practice!!!!!)

Robin

Audio files: Convert them to .mp3 as the files are much smaller and more compatible with just about every application. There are a number of free packages that will do this. I use Audacity, it's fairly user friendly and means you can edit your recordings to improve the quality as well as save them in different formats. Sort of photoshop for music!

Video files: Upload to Youtube or Vimeo and then link to them from here.

Robin

Shorter scale dulcimers will sometimes need heavier strings to keep the pitch at DAd, and this could be where an element of the little loss of sustain mentioned by Joy comes into play.  Personally, I tend to pitch up a little on shorter instruments.  If you are playing mainly by yourself then there's no reason at all not to go to EBe on a 26" and just pretend it is in DAd.  Remember on an acoustic guitar with a 25.5" scale it is common to play a 0.013 as the high 'e' with a medium gauge string set.  So taking a 0.012 to high 'e' on a 26" dulcimer is not an issue.  I was actually playing a 27" in F recently and it sounded lovely (I think that was with 0.010 melody strings).  Every dulcimer behaves a little differently, so if you want a shorter scale, it is certainly worth playing around with string gauges and pitches to find out what sounds best on the instrument.

For some reason we all want to stay in the key of D but in reality we probably spend only a very small proportion of our playing time in situations where we must be in DAd.  So if you do own dulcimers of different scales then I would recommend experimenting with different string gauges and different pitches to find what sound best on each one.

This is such sad news.  I was lucky enough to meet with John at a couple of the Nonsuch Dulcimer Club events and we corresponded both here, on ED and by email and phone.  He was such a lovely man and helped us all managed modes due the clarity of his thinking.  Phrases such as 'home fret' and 'gapped scales' have entered our dulcimer vernacular because of John's posts.  Furthermore, he simply loved to play the dulcimer and introduced us all to many old world folk tunes through his music.

Fair thee well John P - you are sorely missed.

Now I may have this wrong so don't quote me!  But I think of grace notes as the quick augmentation notes that you hear around the melody in many types of music.  They are not part of the melody but usually just a passing flash of an adjacent note.  They tend to be in the key of the piece being played.  This tune I recorded this week uses a lot of grace notes on the downward melody runs:

Now 'accidentals' I think of as notes in a tune that are not 'in key'.  When written in notation they are the notes that have a sharp, flat or natural sign next to them on the staff to show that particular note in different from the key signature.  There are a few tunes I play that have accidentals.  Here is West Virginia Hills.  The tune is in the key of D and the accidental is an F natural.  The tune goes 'Oh those West Vir ginia hills' and the accidental falls on the Vir...

http://k003.kiwi6.com/hotlink/jxhmqvq1bo/West_Virginia_Hills_-_Jeffreys_-_15_Jun_14.mp3

 As I play with a noter there are certain techniques I use for both grace notes and accidentals.  I've outlined then in this video:

Damm !!!  I wish you hadn't asked that question.  You've made me realise that at present I don't have any clear goals at all about my music.  So perhaps my first goal should be to set some goals

Hi Noah - I'm a little late coming to this thread!  It looks like you have sorted out the issue.  On a lot of older dulcimers the 'trick' is to work out how the maker set up the instrument initially and for what tuning and what style of playing.  Sometimes nuts, bridges and string gauges have been altered and it can be a devil of a job to work out how to get an instrument playing well