Forum Activity for @john-p

Hi Gayle,

One finger up and down the melody string here(same as noter/drone, but without the stick),

Play almost entirely by ear and need the tune in my head before I can go anywhere, tra la la, or dum de dum is enough, just something to give me the notes and the rhythm. Songs are often easiest, the words give you something to hang the tune on.
I did teach myself enough SMN to sort out the mode and some sort of fret order, but I still need to hear it by ear, I'm not good at sorting out the rhythm and stuff yet. What a god awful system that SMN is BTW, whoever designed it needs shooting :)

Once I've got the tune in my head(or part of it anyway) it goes -

Take aim, Close your eyes, Dive in.

Taking aim
===========

So I start noodling around trying to fit what's in my head to the fretboard. Sometimes just a couple of notes, how it starts, or maybe a little phrase that works, something to anchor you to the fretboard. If you've got it right then the other notes kind of fall into place. Experience, and loads of trying out, will gradually start to tell you what's going to work and what's not,
First thing I try and find is the Home fret, where the tune is going to end. This tells me the mode and tuning and all that sort of stuff. Next I find where the tune starts and then if there are any intervals that aren't being used(gaps in the scale), this tells me what other Home frets might work.

Closing your eyes.
==================
Not literally, but you've got to get your head out of the way now. Actually closing your eyes can help here as it forces you to play by feel a bit more and stops your damn brain trying to get in on the act all the time, it already had it's turn when you were taking aim. You'll never play from your heart if your head keeps getting in the way.

Dive in.
=========
Just go for it.
This is where all the mystical stuff comes in and people start talking about opening up the higher chakras, getting out of the moving centre, allowing the chi to flow, and Jedi Masters like Randy tell you to trust in the Force.
Those that can do this are the musicians we valued the most, They don't play the music, the music plays them.

When I'm re-remembering a tune I know well it usually goes like this - first time through it goes reasonably well, second time through my brain want's to get involved and it all breaks up, third time through it starts to pull into shape.

Here's an actual example I've just started working on, this is something I heard on the radio and then dug up on youtube.

I was attracted to this in the first place as the sentiment is gentle, it's the song of a dreamer and sounds not quite fully in this world.
So, I listen to it a few times. Next I try to strip out everything but the melody, so follow the voice or the flute or the whistle, and end up with something like 'In the summer we'll go walking, la la la together, dum de dum de dum' in my head.
Next I noodle around looking for the home fret and find it at the 2nd. Very odd this, that's Locrian. closer examination shows it's gapped at the 2nd and 5th so will also fit in Phrygian(5th fret) and Aeolian(1st fret). Probably the missing dominant that gives it the slightly detatched feel.
So that's the brain almost satisfied, I can work the link from lower to higher register, but haven't quite got the bridge back from higher to lower yet(taking aim).
Next comes trying to get a better feeling for the rhythem and the flow of the tune(closing your eyes). then trying to get the whole thing to work(diving in).

john

Excellent post Strel

Skip, as explained, you really need to make up your mind if you're wanting to play on one string or three.
3 strings uses DAD mainly and it's up to you to make the appropriate chords by fingering. This is non modal tuning.
1 string uses the drones to make the chords for you,so retuning is a necessity. This is modal tuning.

Melody doesn't really use the sort of full TAB you have, but is more likely to be just a fret order, most people seem to play by ear anyway. The thing that's most important here is knowing the Home Fret(which fret the tune ends on)

There are only four Home Frets in regular use ( 0,1,3 and 4), so what you are asking for is four lists of tunes based on these frets.
As you say, this sort of info is scattered far and wide.
I used to keep lists like this but gave up after about 200, the problem with this sort of thing is that the majority of tunes can be played from more than one Home Fret, so any lists you make will be full of duplicate entries in differing lists. It's further complicated if you have a 6+, this essentially gives you a second diatonic fretboard supperimposed on the original and extends the number of Home Frets available, making it possible to have some tunes that can be played from all four of the Home Frets.

You'll more likely find it of use to have just one list of tunes giving the modes they can be played in.

john p

I can attest to the strength of Ken's Sonotube idea.

Don't let the word cardboard fool you, this is something that has to be cut with a saw rather than a knife.

May turn out a bit heavy if that affects shipping charges though.

john

Or even DAc, as we nit-pickers call it

john p

Hi Ken.

Nothing strange about it at all, most dulcimers made today have this fret pattern.
It's only 'old school' types like ourselves who insist on only having a single diatonic fret pattern('do' at the 3rd) rather than two diatonic fret patterns('do' at the 3rd AND 'do' at the open) that most folks use today.
That being said, having an instrument that only has the 'do' on the open string has definite disadvantages compared to one that only has 'do' on the 3rd fret. Choice of strings and having no leeway below the Ionian root being the main ones.

You could, of course, add a 6 fret, in the same way that old dulcimers have a 6+ added, to give you the style of dulcimer used by most people today

Hi John,

Our normal dulcimer only needs a melody string capable of the range G > d to accommodate the four standard tunings.
On this instrument you would need a string capable of the range F > d. This is a bit of a stretch, and whilst the thicker string would help tune Aeolian, it would probably then break in Ionian.

Same way you tune any other dulcimer really Dan. This is still a diatonic fretboard, the difference here being that it starts at 'do' ... not the 'so' we are familiar with.

The home fret would be tuned to the tonic, the bass drone tuned an octave below that, and the middle drone tuned a fifth above that.

john p

Dan Goad said:

... Don't know how I would tune that thing.

Thanks for the explaination John.

Sounds like what I know as button polish, but without the stain in it.

john p

Thanks both, I'll look into that.

I don't like the way you put suitable preparation in italics John Henry, whats involved here.

Never come across 'sand and seal', is it the same sort of thing as button polish ?

john p

I've got one to do at the moment.

Flame Maple (Like the one in the FOTMD banner), bare wood.

Any reccommendations ?

I'm not keen on very shiney finishes so french polish is out.
I've used Tung/Danish oil before, which is semi gloss. It's not as labourious as French polish, but can take a fortnight to complete.

john p

Hi Joe,

Are you still using the old strings ?

I have one a bit like that, it's not too bad with fresh strings on but gets worse as the strings get older.

Other things to look at are -

Does it have a bridge and is it fixed or moveable.

What gauge strings are being used, somewhere between 10 and 12 would be expected on that VSL(scale length)

How high do the strings pass over the frets, should be about the thickness of a coin over the middle fret. A bit less towards the tuner end and a bit more nearer the tail end.

john p

Thanks for the link phil,

'Gum Tree Canoe' I mentioned earlier is No 10.

john p

Loved this guy and his presentation.

One of my treasured videos is of him singing 'Gum Tree Canoe' on an empty stage. I shall have to go see if I can find it again, it's on one of my old machines or a CD somewhere.

I think it's Dorian Randy, but I've come across these Appalachian fiddle players before and they aren't too fussy about modes. They seem quite happy to play something in between if they can't make up their mind whether it should be a major or minor interval.

john p

Do give it a try phil, like to hear how you get on with it.

Can't see that wormy wood would have any special acoustic properties, maybe it does.
I don't see how you could make any meaningful comparison anyway, without finding someone who has done considerable work with both.

A fashion for wormy wood seems to have grown up in the US, where obvious signs of age are seen as all important, image more than anything else.

If you have clean timber from the same era then use it.
It can always be distressed later if that's the sort of look you want.

john p

And their after sales service is as good as you'll find anywhere.

[edit] not surprising really ... they more or less define the highest standards for volume manufacturers

john p

Where do we find your playing Ken.

Do you record at all ?

john p

I'm told that the Epinette des Camembert makes a good cheese grater

john p

Another tip for TAB and SMN is to use Google IMAGE search instead of the general search.

Helps eliminate some of the dross.

john p

A lot will depend on your choice of wood and style of play.

Mine is faced with beech, which is legendary for it's resistance to abrasion. It's had thirty odd years of regular use and shows little signs of wear, still more than serviceable. The frets on the other hand have been worn down to tram lines long ago.

Joy - you don't say how old it is, if you start with a brand new instrument then even the slightest sign of wear will show up immediately. Judge it after a few more years and you may see it differently.

john p

How long instruments last depends a lot on the materials used and style of play. Stuff like do you use a noter, how hard the fret wire is, what the fingerboard is faced with etc.
One of my instruments has been played daily for 30 odd years and the frets are down to tram lines now, it's long overdue for a re-fret but never quite get round to it.
OTOH, the fingerboard is done with steamed beech and renowned for it's resistance to wear, it's marked but not at all worn.

In the end, how does it play for you, I think the reason I keep putting off the re-fret is because it's so comfortable to play(I use a finger).

If it becomes difficult to play or fret cleanly, you can easilly have it refretted and/or refaced if you think the instrument is worth it. (excessive wear after six months sounds a bit suspect though)

john p

Well, veering away from the dulc a bit :

Tim O'Brien & Jerry Douglas

He is playing it in his lap :)

john p

This internal brace you speak of, is it across the gap in the back?

If so, are you sure it is glued right across, or maybe only fixed to one side?

IOW, can the bout be squeezed shut as you suggest.

john p

Never sure what sort of TAB people are looking for. This is how I do it for noter/drone style.(finger/drone in my case)

john p

Looks like Mixalydian(start at open string DAD).

The basic version is pentatonic and can be played in Ionian(start at 3rd fret DAA) and Dorian(start at 4th fret DAG) as well. You can even play it in Aeolian if you have a 6+ fret(start at 1st fret DAC).

An extra long fretboard and lower tuning are mentioned, so maybe it's a non standard,

john p

Yep. DAA for Ionian, and add 3 to the fret numbers.

I find this easiest to play in Mixalydian tuning DAD, but maybe you should stick to DAA in view of the extra strain DAD might put on the instrument until it's fixed.

john p

I've just put up some noter TAB in this thread :

http://mountaindulcimer.ning.com/forum/topics/pretty-saro

Any use ?

john p

Never understood why it has to be one or the other, both are useful to my mind.

I like to play by ear wherever poss. and can do far more from a tune I know or a sound clip than I can from TAB, and quicker.

Fine, if you can find exactly what you want, but sometimes you can only find some SMN, convert to TAB and then learn it by ear.

Point being that you may never have learnt the tune in the first place without TAB, even though you don't need to use it anymore.

john p

I've always thought that 'My Dearest Dear' was very sad. I'ts one of those songs that won't go away and I have several tunes to it now.

Sad - Well, folowing Paul's suggestion above, the tune of 'The Week Before Easter' was used for a song called 'Dancing at Whitsun' and tells of the ladies left without their husbands and sweethearts who never returned from the Great War.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9bH1XsWHgY

Spooky - Well Childe #6 is very 'Wierd', usually known as 'Willie's Lady', 'The Nine Witch Knots' or 'The Loaf of Wax'. This has it all, the cruelty of the Step Mother, the torment of the Bride, the resolutness of the Husband, the resourcefullness of the Faithfull Retainer ...

The Nine Witch Knots refers to the binding of one of the most terrible curses that could be laid on any woman.

Oddly, the tune usually used for this ballad(due to Ray Fisher) is a somewhat raucous and slightly maudlin cider drinking song from Brittainy.

john p

Both good makers from what I know, and not really that old, so sounds like something needs to be done about the action, as Ken said.

The Nickel and Dime test is to check the height of the strings over the frets.
You should be able to just slide a Nickel under the string at the 7th fret, and a Dime should just slide under the string next to the 1st fret.

You will need to check the fretboard has stayed flat before going any further, but it could be easilly fixable.

john p

Are the bridges in the right place(or movable). The distance from nut to 7th fret should be very close to half the VSL.

There is an old guitar makers fret spacing based on 'The Rule of 18' that produces a slightly flattened scale.

I have a calculator somewhere that generates such scales if you want to check (requires a lot of measuring).

It will also do Equal and Just temperament if you want to check those as well.

Otherwise, it's probably what Ken says, or some combination of problems.

john p

I have a suspicion that there is some sort of counting goimg on when I play too, some sort of feedback between the number of fret bumps on your finger and the brain.

I've just picked up a 6+ instrument, and for almost the first time in 30 years am having to retrain myself, invariable undershooting by a fret whenever I cross the 6+.

Don't like the three frets so close either, doesn't sound quite right somehow with the extra fret sounding on a slide.

Did play 'Black Eyed Dog' and thought the 6+ added something even though it was never played. So not all bad, but doubt it will last and I'll be back to the diatonic.

john p

You gotta have somewhere to shake the bugs out

john p

That's how it is on mine Thanna.

[edit] you can look right through and see light coming through the sound holes

john p

Or did you mean the slot that runs across the tail.

This is a consequence of the soundboard being made of two pieces of wood that don't meet in the middle, but extend only a little way under the hollowed out fretboard.

This leaves a gap made up of the end cap on the fretboard(top), the two edges of the soundboard and the pin block at the bottom.

I guess McSpadden feel it is unnecessary to fill this, or perhaps it has some effect on the sound.

john p

Bet you don't get many French subscribers to the 'Show Us Your Pets' thread either

john

Hi Garey, just a word about the date, they are only a bit over 100 years old.

The two books often got confused and the first became known as the 1850 Edition and the second as the 1001 Edition according to the number of tunes in each, rather than the date they were published.

"Chief" O'Neill as he was known, was head of the Chicago Fire Dept, or maybe it was the Police.

A key collection and great resource.

John p

Hi Robin, good to see you are having so much fun. It's been fascinating watching you progress

Tim Erikson started out in a band called Cordelia's Dad and has a 10 minute version of Sugar Babe on their album 'Comet' if you can find it.

Cath Oss, another ex member now lives in England and plays with her husband under the name 'Cath and Phil Tyler', also well worth a listen. They have a version of Long Time Traveller that I like.

john p