Forum Activity for @nate

String gauge and intonation

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hey folks I was hoping to get some clarification about how string gauge affects intonation. I have noticed that an unwound middle string needs to be compensated about 1/16th of an inch longer than a wound middle string. If I don't compensate the middle slot differently than the others, it can often be up to 15 cents sharp at the octave, when properly tuned.
I remember hearing in passing a long time ago that wound strings need to be intonated to compensate for their core diameter and not their wound diameter. Can anyone verify this?

And if so, does anyone know what size core corresponds to certain gauges of wound string? For example, what is the core gauge of a .18 and a .24 string that are wound? Maybe I can use the digital calipers at my work and measure some cores.

I have noticed that in order to correctly compensate for my middle strings, the bridge needs to be shaped differently depending on whether the string is wound or not. Is this a common issue? and is there a better solution than just having two separate bridges with the two different compensations?

Thanks for any info, and sorry if the questions aren't asked very clearly,

Nate

updated by @nate: 03/05/24 12:41:54PM

Vintage dulcimer information sought

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Ah, my mistake, the shape of that bridge tricked my eyes quite a bit lol. Sounds like a nicer spacer will work well. The tailpiece looks pretty sturdy so I would think running both strings through the same hole would work, but maybe someone with more knowledge could comment on that.
Nate

Vintage dulcimer information sought

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

That is a really nice looking dulcimer Art.
I believe the little feet on the sides of the bridge are to brace it to keep it from slipping to either side from uneven tension of the strings. This feature is useful for dulcimers that can switch between 4 string equidistant and 3 course with paired melody strings. The four string anchors in the tailpiece of the instrument are equidistant.
If you wanted paired melody strings, because the string anchors are set up for 4 string equidistant, the inner melody string would want to pull the entire bridge sideways, and the little legs on the sides of the bridge would brace it to prevent this.
The only issue is you would need pretty deep slots so make sure the strings cant pop out of them.
The benefit of a spacer is that it has very deep slots so that the strings put tension on the sides of the slots and are already the correct distance apart before coming in contact with the bridge.
It might be worth considering to make a nicer looking, more precise spacer rather than not have one, if you are planning to play with a doubled melody string, and not 4 string equidistant. An advantage of having a spacer (and corresponding slots in the nut) is that you can switch between 4 string equidistant and paired melody strings more conveniently.
Also, as Ken suggested, you should check that the action height and bridge placement are correct, especially before reducing the height of your bridge by making slots. 
Good luck!
Nate

Bodhran (Irish Drum)

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Looks like a good time. The Bodhran is a really cool instrument. For how deceptively simple they look, they are very complex. The soft but powerful tones fit great into almost any type of music in my opinion
Nate 

Ergonomics and Wrist Strain

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Thank you Dusty this is very helpful information and visual context. I used to think there was no wrong way to play the dulcimer until the way I was doing it started to hurt. Now I know of at least one wrong way lol. 

I am 6'3 with long legs that tend to cause my knees to be higher than my hips on most chairs and couches, which is something I was never cognizant about until Strumelia pointed it out. When I do sit on something that lets my legs dangle, it is very comfortable to use a strap and let the dulcimer rest across my legs at a downward angle.

In being more aware about my wrist position and posture, I'm already noticing an improvement in strain.

Thanks folks

Ergonomics and Wrist Strain

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Thanks folks for these useful tips. Clearly I need to hold my arm at a better angle. I think also paying attention to the level my knees are at will also be very helpful. In general, should my wrist be flat with my forearm, or curved slightly downward?

Ergonomics and Wrist Strain

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Hey folks, can anyone recommend any good videos, articles, or just general advice on proper form for fretting a dulcimer. The way that I fret can put a lot of strain on my wrist at times, so I need to improve my technique, but I don't actually know the correct way to fret ergonomically. Can anyone offer advice or direct me toward content that will help me to learn how to practice good form that puts less stress on my fretting wrist.
I am hesitant to just trust whatever comes up from a google search since I know so little on the topic, so Id be grateful if anyone could share any good resources or tips.
Thanks,
Nate

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Wow Dusty, that sounds rigorous. I'm sure it'll pay off to develop that, though. If I enjoyed doing drills like that, I'd probably have a lot sharper of skills than I get from just plunking around like I do.

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

One thing I find really cool about that is that speeding up music doesn't change the pitch of the notes so you can speed up or slow down backing tracks or "play alongs" and they will still be in the original key

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I guess when talking about tuning precisely it's two kind of separate questions. Not only the question of "how close to dead on do you get it" but also "what do you count as dead on" since as folks mention, the 'sweetest' pitch might not be exactly where the 12 tone equal tempered note is. I was more curious about how meticulously people are about getting the instrument to their desired pitch, but the topic of choosing to tune slightly sharp of flat is also really fascinating
Nate

updated by @nate: 02/08/24 01:47:03AM

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Dusty, I have always found the cultural aspect of pitch perception to be really fascinating. It's a pretty vast topic and really puts into perspective how nuanced the things that make music 'enjoyable' to people are. Even just the difference in sound between two temperaments is interesting. I tend to think being too attached to a certain set of exact pitches limits enjoyment of music. In a perfect world I could hear exactly how in tune I am, and still not mind if I'm out of tune. It seems like I have to compromise one for the other.
Nate

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize how uncommon it is to use a tuner that measures in cents. I've tried a few types of tuners but eventually landed on my phone. The mic in a cell phone is very good quality. A few years ago I compared a snark, a d'addario, an offbrand one that came with an instrument, a strobe tuner built into an old fender amp, and my cellphone. I used a fancy mic plugged into my computer as the 'baseline' to compare them against.
The snark and strobe tuner both agreed I was 'in tune' once I was 5 cents off but didn't allow me to try to tune any closer. The d'addario and generic brand one actaully showed how many cents off I was, but seemed to have an accuracy issue and were a cent off from the true reading of my real mic. My cellphone seemed to completely agree with my real mic down to the cent, so that's what I use now.
The big thing that I learned from that process is that my ear cannot tell the difference. 5 cents off sounded exactly like 0 cents off every single time. I have gotten kind of fussy with getting it as close as possible, even though it makes no difference to my ear. That's why I was looking for some outside perspective.
Thanks all,
Nate

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hey folks 

Id love some input on how close you get your tuning to perfect before calling it "good enough"

I personally try to tune within 3 cents of exactly on note,(3/100ths of a semitone) and I am curious what is 'normal/common'

Thanks for any input

Nate

updated by @nate: 02/03/24 12:06:46AM

Any banjo players out there?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Jalan Crossland is an absurd talent 

Any banjo players out there?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

 
Thank you for your offer I appreciate that. So far so good but if I have any questions I'll definitely take the opportunity to ask.
 
Those banjo-leles seem like a lot of fun. I just got everything I need to make myself a banjo drumhead, and a banjolele is going to be the first thing I try making.
 
That is very cool! I did not know his name, but I'm a big fan of Molly Tuttle with Golden Highway, which he is the banjo player for. Definitely an extremely talented and entertaining banjo player. There seem to be a lot of very talented banjo players coming out of the modern "folk punk" bluegrass scene. A few that come to mind are Billy Failing, Jalan Crossland, Matt Heckler and now, Kyle Tuttle

Nate
updated by @nate: 02/02/24 06:24:17PM

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
This is very insightful I did not know about that feature. Thanks for the information,
Nate

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
Dwain, could you please explain this more, I was not aware of this. I have only built with flat fingerboards so I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by 'concave dish.'
Thanks
Nate
updated by @nate: 02/01/24 08:43:05PM

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Three dimes seems like a TON of extra height by the nut. I hope that isn't due to warping or bowing.

If you have a nice straight edge on a metal yardstick or something like that, you could set it along the fretboard and observe if the straight edge touches all the frets, or if some of them are lower/higher. It is possible that some frets have risen slightly out of their slots and need to be 'tapped' back into place.

It can be helpful to check each fret with a tuner and note how out of tune each fret is. If the first couple of frets are the most out of tune, the issue is most likely your nut being too high. If the frets get more out of tune as you get closer to the octave, you most likely need to move or reduce the height of your bridge.

Once the frets are all level and the action is correct, you will most likely have to readjust your bridge placement anyway. 
Tune the string up to tension and get it exactly to the desired note. Use a tuner to compare the open string to the note at the 7th fret (octave) If the octave is  flat, the bridge needs to be moved *closer to the nut* If the octave is sharp, the bridge needs to be moved *away from the nut*

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Bob Stephens dulcimers are absurdly cool. I haven't had the privilege of playing one but the engineering is fascinating and the tone is definitely distinctive. They incorporate a lot of design elements that you won't find in any other instruments. They may look 'guitar-like' but they are very optimized dulcimers. Features like the floating neck and internal soundboard are examples of taking things that are distinctive about a dulcimer and pushing them further.

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
I saw a courting dulcimer on this site years ago and haven't been able to find it since. It had fingerboards that did not extend to any edges of the box, and both pegboxes were on one side of the instrument. When I realized that the fingerboard doesnt need to go all the way to the box edges, and that the pegbox can be at either end of the strings, I made this dulcimer

updated by @nate: 02/01/24 05:50:11PM

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The dulcimer played by John in the video does not seem to be a courting dulcimer, like the one in the patent document. The fingerboards are both facing the same way, and don't seem to be laid out in a way that would be easy for two people to reach both fingerboards at once. The fact that it is only one octave is the main reason I am guessing that John's second fingerboard is for lower pitch notes. It would not need the second octave, since the higher notes are already on the other fretboard.

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The dulcimer in the video is very cool and relates to some ideas I've been thinking about lately (such as fingerboards that do not touch any edges of the instrument)
It's hard to imagine what aspect of that dulcimer would be patented. It is notable that the second fret board does not have strings or a bridge. My first guess would be that it is intended to have a lower register of deeper pitch strings. This seems likely, since it only has one octave worth of frets.
Another guess would be that the second fretboard is meant to play in a different key. Bing Futch has a Folkcraft dulcimer with two separate fretboards in different keys. 
Either way thanks for sharing
Nate

New instruments that I have no clue about!

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

These are undeniably super cool. I am grateful that you shared these, but I would think the best person to tell you what they are would be your grandfather himself? The first instrument is very cool to me due to its fret layout. It is interesting to think about why the second string would be chromatic and not the first. Maybe it would allow the second string to be tuned to a major 3rd and still play diatonically. 
Would love to know if anyone knows more about the bizarre fret layout on the first photo. It reminds me of a citera.
Thanks
Nate

updated by @nate: 02/01/24 03:47:49AM

Reasons NOT To Get a Chromatic

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#1 Reason NOT To Get a Chromatic Dulcimer:
You don't have to defend or rationalize it's place as a dulcimer. 

Vintage dulcimer information sought

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I agree that the wood piece is meant to simply space the strings at the correct distance from eachother, and the dark colored 'bar' is the actual bridge. It would explain the extra notch. That would correspond to a "course" of melody strings, it if were strung '3 string equidistant with a melody course.' From the image, the dark colored 'bridge' seems to straddle the fingerboard, with small 'legs' that go down off both sides. I assume that piece of light colored wood was added specifically to modify it to be able to play 3 string equidistant.
Out of curiousity, I'd love to know how much this dulcimer cost at an antique shop.
Look forward to you learning more about it and sharing with us
Nate

updated by @nate: 02/01/24 02:23:22AM

Reasons NOT To Get a Chromatic

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
I'd love to find the first man to call an Appalachian zither a 'dulcimer' and ask him his definition. I wonder if it would be so general that most modern instruments fit in, or so strict that none of us meet the cut.
I think the standards you apply to dulcimer are not be applied to other instruments. A seven string guitar is a guitar, and a micro tonal guitar is a guitar.
In my view, a dulcimer that is different is just a dulcimer with qualifiers. Whether a chromatic dulcimer, a 1, 2, 4 or 5 string equidistant dulcimer, a resonator dulcimer, a lego dulcimer, they all count as dulcimers, but are not simply a dulcimer.
Might not be 'just a dulcimer' but it's 'more a dulcimer than it is something else.'

Just For Fun - sayings regarding the dulcimer or music

OFF TOPIC discussions

 
I play behind my back, Like Stevie Ray Vaughn.
I like to leave my best performances behind me 

beginner strumming

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

In my opinion, in and out strums sound very different, especially if you strum slower. I feel that they have different energies. An in strum feels passive and calm whereas an out strum feels engaging and sharp. I think that a melody note after a bass note feels cradled, whereas a base note after a melody note feels like an echo. So I think it would benefit you to make sure you play plenty with both in and out strums, and feel the subtle difference. 
Good luck and have fun
Nate

Looking For Tuner Recommendations

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I highly recommend trying an app called "soundcorset" it is very straightforward to use for tuning, and most modern smartphones have significantly higher quality microphones than clip on or onboard tuners. 
The advantage of a clip on is that it doesn't pick up background noise, which is useful in loud places like group settings. As John said, a chromatic is definitely ideal. 
While I can understand the apprehension toward using an app, the key benefits are that it's free and that it's built into something you already carry. Personally, I keep losing my tuners around my apartment, because I have too many instruments that arent well organized, so it's nice to always know I have the phone app as a last ditch, if nothing else.
Nate

The Positive Thread...

OFF TOPIC discussions

With the loss of such a positive support beam in the dulcimer community, it reminds me to express my gratitude to y'all. I am very grateful to have found this community of kind, helpful, non-judgmental, encouraging, and inviting folks who I can share the dulcimer with. You have all had a tremendously positive impact on me, and I'm grateful to be able to interface with all you great folks.
I love you all,
God bless all,
Nate

Reasons NOT To Get a Chromatic

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

"It may be true that there are no wrong notes on the dulcimer, but that doesn't mean that all the right ones are there" 

Dusty, that deserves a place in the fun sayings about dulcimer chat. 

Reasons NOT To Get a Chromatic

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 

It's funny that you mention this. My experience with chromatic dulcimer is that it enhances my perspective of diatonic dulcimer. The cultural place of chromatic and diatonic dulcimers might be different, but to me, as a self taught dulcimer player, chromatic dulcimer provides me with useful contextual information that I can apply to diatonic.Specifically, hearing the ways that the same chords that I play in diatonic can fit into other keys helps me to think of them with a more open mind. 
Nate

Oscar Schmidt OS21C my axe (autoharp)

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

I got the opportunity to play an autoharp once. It belonged to a family friend who would play it and sing when my father was a kid. A couple of the pads had been damaged over time, and it took QUITE a while to tune up, but the ethereal brightness of the sound is unlike any other instrument I've heard. Such a beautiful sound.
Nate

Dulcimer maker unknown

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
Thank you very much "other Ken" xD .That was really neat to listen to. I always enjoy seeing dulcimers made with alternative materials

Dulcimer maker unknown

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Ken, do you have any photos of this lego dulcimer? Or better yet video. You've mentioned it a few times and ive gotten really curious about it. It sounds really interesting.

Nate

String suggestions

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
Hello great lakes. I am aware that "Folkcraft" sells a set of ball end dulcimer strings. The gauges are not exactly the same, but very close. Seeing if your local guitar shop sells loose strings is a good idea also. Often times then have a big tub of them, like John says, and can grab out the exact gauges you want. 
Nate

Traditional role of the mountain dulcimer.

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

 
I have built many cigar box guitars, and a few cigar box dulcimers, including a couple very unconventional ones. Nowadays cigar boxes are mostly for 'aesthetics' which is why most of them have pickups that entirely overwhelm and negate the tone of the box. I believe you are right that thin, prefabricated boxes are good for tone and that cigar boxes are, and have always been, very accessible.

It makes sense to me that craftsmen have always been skilled and competent and with capable tools, but I would contend that the ability to build string instruments generally requires access to information. I often take for granted how much information I have access to about dulcimer building, both scientific and anecdotal. For people learning to build instruments without access to information, I assume they used intuition as well as 'trial and error.' and I imagine these contributed to the changes/innovations in zithers that Appalachian Americans made.
Thank you for your insights, Wally.
-Nate

Traditional role of the mountain dulcimer.

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

 
Ken, this perfectly highlights what I mean to convey. That people will ultimately use all sorts of things depending on what is available to them. Perhaps people who understood the parts of a zither on a conceptual level found a lot of different ways to employ these principles with different instrument designs. I still imagine that if you gave top of the line modern building equipment to classical builders of old, that they would be ecstatic to use it. Still, when I see an instrument like a TMB, what I most admire is the cleverness of building a beautiful instrument in such a simple way. Thanks again for the insight. 
Nate

The "I have small hands" idea

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

This is a terrific thread and I remember reading it a few years ago when I first started dulcimer. I thought I had small hands when I first started playing, just because I couldn't make chord shapes. It also didnt help anything that my first dulcimer had a 29" vsl. Still, I played it and got used to big stretches and then I started making dulcimers with smaller VSLs. I was able to make much bigger stretches much more comfortably.
So is the lesson that playing on a hard instrument makes easy ones easier? Or is it that I could have had much less struggle and discomfort by only playing on a smaller dulcimer? 
It brings up the question of how much I want to physically challenge myself vs how much I just want to enjoy playing.

Now, I'm convinced I have pretty big hands, but I still prefer a 23" VSL to anything longer.  I have a couple years of practice stretching my hands, but there are still really long stretches that I wouldn't want to try on a 29" VSL.
At one point I really wanted to play more  challenging music, but I get a lot more enjoyment out of having an easy, comfortable time playing less challenging music. Obviously both are valid.
I think the big thing is that no one should ever convince themselves that they  can't  play a longer VSL instrument because of small hands, but making stretches on a shorter VSL instrument is still a lot more comfortable.
Nate

Kora

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

 

Georgia, she is an incredible kora player, thank you for sharing. The kora is an instrument that lends itself to rhythm techniques, so the very high level players do things that most folks would find really daunting, but when using beginner tunings and techniques, it is very easy to get started and make beautiful music.
When I went to the Musical Instrument Museum in Phoenix, AZ they had a small room full of gongs, chimes, large drums and all sorts of easy to "play" instruments like ukuleles and xylophones, which were open to the public to mess around with. I was super excited to see simple koras in there and get to play one. They really are a lot of fun, and very easy to start but quite difficult to master, I'd imagine.
Nate
updated by @nate: 12/23/23 05:26:28PM