Forum Activity for @traildad

I went and picked up my new Black Mountain Instruments Jumbo 81D with case. It is a beautiful dulcimer and looks to be well made. I was surprised to noticed that the dulcimer didn’t closely match the dimensions listed on the website but I’ve decided it doesn’t really matter for my purposes. It seems to be easier to play than the loaner kit dulcimer I’ve been using. It has a bright sound with good volume. The treble is a bit weak on the higher frets which is to be expected with a larger dulcimer. I’m looking forward to getting used to the new fretboard and the double melody strings.

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Not screws.

Looking at the pictures, it's possible they measured from the nut rather than the zero fret.

If you are playing noter/drone, VSL should not matter as much. For chording, a half an inch makes a big difference. The same with a buzz on a drone string. If you are not fretting it, who cares?  But it might matter if you ever wanted to sell the dulcimer, so if you bought it new, you might want to contact the builder. 

Black Mountain makes their own instruments and they do not look like those Roosebecks made overseas.

Sorry, i corrected my typo.  The bass is D3, the middle A is A3, and the high melody d is D4.

Thus, a dulcimer tuning of DAA is (D3 A3 A3) on the piano. The common tuning DAd is (D3 A3 D4) on the piano. To play lonesome Aeolian mode tunes you might try tuning to DAc (D3 A3 C4).

Here's a decent chart.

Not unless he put his sticker inside a dulcimer and sold it as his own. 

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Are those screws or lynch pins on the end?

Now I am really confused? Anyways the bass will be D3, the Middle A4, the two melody strings D4.  using C4 as middle C.

I believe the capital D that is commonly used to indicate the bass string is D3, the D below middle C on a piano.  The lower case d that is commonly used to indicate the higher octave d of the melody string(s) is D4... the next higher note after middle C. (middle C is most often counted as C4)

Yes when writing DAd or DAdd tuning of dulcimers, the first upper case D is the low bass string (D3) and the last lower case d or dd are the higher octave D4 on a piano. The middle string A is upper case because it's still a note in the "3" octave: below middle C.

So in all I got two well made dulcimers in new condition, teardrop and hourglass, for less than the price of one. I got lucky.Now I have to find some interesting music to play.

I have emailed the maker/seller. I’m asking here if it’s common for measurements of a dulcimer to not be precise. As I posted below the height is listed as 3.13”. Listing 3.13 suggests they are measuring in a very precise way. I’m not claiming anyone lied. I’m trying to figure out if my expectations are out of line. The VSL is listed as 29.25”. I am measuring from the zero fret and it measures 28.5” to the back of the white piece the strings rest on.

It sounds like a dulcimer. This is the first time I’ve played with two melody strings. It kind of adds a 12 string guitar sound to it. The drone strings are loud and the melody strings have a “super high up the fret board deadness sound” that is noticeable lower on the fret board than the loaner I’ve been using. I’ve read that is an issue with bigger dulcimers. There is a little buzz on the D drone string on the 9th fret. Since I’m playing noter drone it isn’t a problem. To my novice eye it looks like a quality build. No glue puddled inside that I can see. It has a lower action where I strum which seems to make it easier to keep the pick from going in too deep.

I’m not sure it’s a deal breaker. I haven’t had the chance to listen to and play many different dulcimers. Maybe I shouldn’t care as long as it doesn’t cause a problem. If it was the full size specified maybe it would lose more high end treble. Playing noter drone style maybe the VSL isn’t important. I didn’t choose it for the specific VSL, that was just what they listed. I’m really not sure what to think about it. 

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Looks Like a got the listing backwards. it will Be Bass to Melody DAdd. Right? Thanks

With the brightness mentioned and the measurements, I wonder if I guess it was a Roosebeck if I would be right?

It looks like quite an elegant dulcimer, Nathina.  Congratulations!

Don't think of your initial tuning as a commitment.  Earlier today I joined an online dulcimer gathering and we used three different tunings (DAd, DAA, DAC) without changing strings at all.  And I regularly tune down to C or up to E with the same set of strings.

Ken is correct about the order in which we list the strings. You can still find older books and tab that list strings from melody to bass, but sometime (mid-late 70s?) the nonexistent Council on Dulcimer Standards decreed that we should list strings from bass to melody.  Honestly it makes no difference at all, but it is nice when we all refer to things the same way.

The dimensions listed for a dulcimer should be pretty exact.  I don't know anyone who would list the VSL as 29" if it were really 28.5".  That half inch would make a huge difference in terms of fingering the frets, even if the difference in sound would be minimal.

Having said that, if you expect a dulcimer to sound a certain way based on dimensions alone (or wood choice or bracing or . . .) you are likely to be disappointed.  There are so many factors that influence a dulcimer's sound.  Certain luthiers have certain sounds regardless of the exact size or shape or wood they use.  My point is not that size has no effect, for in general you would expect larger instruments to have more volume and more sustain, but modern luthiers are able to achieve both in smaller dulcimers.  My McCafferty is very loud and very mellow, and the VSL is only 25", though the box is indeed deeper than those of traditional dulcimers. My point is simply that the luthier has much more to do with the sound of a dulcimer than the size or shape or any other individual variable.

Congrats on your new friend.  FWIW, who signs a McSpadden dulcimer has nothing to do with who built it.  Maybe back in the 60s when Lynn was just getting started, but every instrument since then is a group construction effort.

Little bit of terminology for you.  When you say you're going to tune dADD, do you mean it has two melody strings?  Or two bass strings? 

These days we almost always describe a tuning from the bass string to the melody.  That is DAA or DAd -- the bass string is D, the middle drone is A.  Also, if you have doubled melody strings, we mostly don't write two letters -- DAdd -- unless the two strings a different notes like DAdA.  Lastly, the capital D is more or less reserved for D4 -- one note higher than middle C.  The lower case d indicates that that string is one octave higher in pitch than the D.  So, we mostly write DAd or perhaps DAdd meaning the bass string is D the middle drone is A five notes higher, and the melody string(s) are d, an octave higher than D.

I suspect your "brightness" is due to wood, and not to measurements.

One person's "jumbo" is another person's average.  Did you actually compare the listed dimensions to the instrument you already have in hand to see how different it was going to be?  Is the new body significantly wider, deeper, longer than the one you have in hand?

Is it common to be only "near"?  "What's "near"?  Your "near" may be my "rounded up". 

Is it common to be "only near" when describing a dulcimer?   Probably.  Depends on the builder/website where you ordered.  Was it a mass market outfit like MusicMakers, or a custom builder?  

Not everyone (hardly anyone) measures and reports dulcimer specifications to the nearest millimeter.   Forget "overall length".  That's a measurement only truly useful for a shipping department and has virtually no significance to the sound quality because tuning heads and tail blocks extend beyond the vibrating body of the instrument.   If an instrument I build is 38-13/16" overall length (a measurement almost no one cares about),   I would not hesitate to say it was 39" long.  

What does matter to the sound quality of an instrument is the interior volume of the body (cubic inches under the hood), but certainly not fractions of an inch or a few cubic inches.  A dulcimer of a given shape which is 1.5" deep and 5.5" wide, will be less "mellow" than the same shape of dulcimer which is 3" deep and 8" wide.   

VSL not being exact?  Often.  We often talk about a 27" VSL because it's a convenient number and trips nicely on the tongue.  Much nicer than saying  "twenty-seven and one quarter inches" every time you talk about VSL.   Many are actually built to 27.25" or even 27.5".  Why? because there are common frets-pacing calculators that are set for 27.25" for example, and a quarter inch difference is not going to affect the sound of your instrument in any way that 99.9% of people have any way of measuring.  There are certainly more substantial differences between 26" and 27", or 27" and 28".  Substantial meaning perhaps 1/10" differences in fret spacing -- but not significantly effecting the sound.

If you feel the seller has lied to you, why not contact him/her directly?

If I new who your luthier is I could comment better. If is one guy, I expect everything to be exact. If it a "factory operation" where several "luthiers" could sign, I have not generally been pleased. I have seen major differences in quality where there should be none. They were all good quality, but some were better than others in matching wood, lengths and fittings. Then there are the factory operations where the head and main assistant make top line dulcimers to specs, and student apprentices make mistakes. These are generally sold at reduced prices but still under the name of main Luthier. I don't think they expect anyone to measure, but I have seen offsets in tuning key positions, and lynch pin positions. Like you, I would expect to get consistency. This occurs in all "hand made" instruments. If you want I can tell you about woods and give you hints about buying hand made acoustical instruments. I spent a lot of time looking for my large hammered dulcimer, and I am very pleased at the result. I spent time studying mountain dulc, and found some phenomenal bargains is used instruments that were actually new made by excellent luthiers.

Already fixed thanks. He was using spring washers, which after 40 years, lost their tension. I suspect it was stored for 40 years wound tight. 4 split washers and everything is great. What is impressive is that the wood is as new as when it was made. Nothing to indicate age except maybe darkening. I was thinking of changing them to 1:14 gear type but decided to keep the esthetics. The tuner ends are mahogany.

@Nathina But what does it say the specifications are on the web site? If you order a 29” VSL does it measure 29 or 281/4? I understand different instruments have different lengths and widths. I’m wondering about mine not matching the measurements given on the website where I ordered it from. Is it common for a dulcimer to be only near the stated measurements?

Wonderful!  Wonderful!  It all worked out!  

McSpadden makes a lovely dulcimer.  If you like, you can replace those tuners with the same thing, or something similar.  There are many options from which to choose.

36" length is the same as my Ron Gibson Barbra Ellen Teardrop. Sound Box depth is 2 7/8 not including fret board and widest is 7 3/8. My McSpadden is 35 3/8 long, width is 6 5/8 depth 1 3/8. As you can see they range widely. The Gibson has excellent sound with a Catalpa Wood Top and sycamore sides and back, not sure yet on the McSpadden as I just got it new (used). Had to do some minor repair on the tuners but just like new, not a scratch. The sound of this is also excellent and the sound box is half that of the teardrop. It really depends on the wood used.

29.25″ Scale, 36″ length, 3.13″ deep, 8″ wide

The McSpadden arrived. Not a mark on it, and was never used. The case is new no scuffing again. Will post pics tomorrow. It is signed by Larry. I spent the evening fixing it, thought the price was too low, as the keys wouldn't hold and it was strung wrong. Restrung it, and 4 lock washers and as good as new. Will Tune it to dADD, and try to find out more information from McSpadden on its history. The washers in the keys were suppose to be spring type, but I guess the age and storage caused them to loose their tension. Replaced with lock washers and good to go. Restringing properly tonight. It is a Model M8-W signed by Larry.

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What were the actual listed sizes. There are specific 23" VSL, 26, 28, 28.5.. Each Luthier likes their own width for a specific model. Sound box depth depths are usually 3 inches for some 2.xx for others which includes the height of the fret board. If the keys are up they may add that in also to the total height. I have measured mine and the VSLs are exact to the manufacturer, and depth as to the model. A bright sound may be due to what wood was used in the soundboard.

Generally speaking how close do dulcimers come to matching the size description on the web sites? I ordered a jumbo dulcimer with the hope that the larger size would affect the sound in a positive way. I brought my new dulcimer home today and found that it does not match what I thought I was getting. It’s about 5/8” shorter in overall length, 3/8” smaller in width, 3/8” shorter in height and the VSL is about 3/4” shorter than the description states. Is this just the normal variances of a hand made instrument? It has a nice bright dulcimer sound. I probably wouldn’t even question this except I was looking for a mellower sound and I hoped the larger size would help in that department. Anyone ever measure?

Where the wire hole is depends on the style of bar pickup. There are 2 styles I've used, one is aimed at violins with the wire exiting from the center of the bar, the other is the more common bar with the wire exiting from the end. Both are a bit longer than most fretboard widths, about 1 1/2 -1 5/8 I think. There may be shorter ones available. The end exit type can be carefully clipped shorter. The active elements are seen as small bumps in the skin, the cut S/B between the last 2 bumps, there 4. A good set of side cutters works. The hole on the end exit style is drilled right next to the fretboard and the wire/bar end covered with a lightly glued cap.

There are some that already have the bridge piece glued to the pickup element. I've not used any. I make the bridge to fit.

The wire can be fished out the jack hole with a piece of cutoff melody string with a hook bend on the end.

Use a pencil type soldering iron with a non corrosive, electronics flux core. Apply heat to the jack tabs to melt the solder not the wire.

The hole for the end pin jack is about 3/8th inch if I recall correctly. The hole for the pickup wire goes through the area under the bridge, so it goes through the fret board and the sound board. I think that was maybe a 3/64th inch hole. It just has to be big enough for the wires to go through. Once the pickup wires go into the cavity of the dulcimer you need to find a way to pull them out of the end pin jack hole and then solder them to the pickup. 

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Like hammers for the HD. I have two I like for the big one, 1 I like for the 16/15 but won't use on the bigger one.

Picks are very subjective and very personal to each player, that's for sure.  I make wood and bamboo 'strummer' picks, and have picks made from ivory-nut palm, various plastics (credit cards, plastic strapping, etc), corset stays, and large bird primary wing quills.

Hole into the end block I can do, as I am going to install some strap buttons. Through the soundboard and soldering are not my forte.

Yes, you need two pull out the old bridge, drill a hole for the wire to pass through in to the body of the dulcimer. You also need to drill a hole through the tail piece in to the body of the dulcimer for the output jack. It requires some soldering of the wires from the pickup to the output jack. The output jack becomes the strap button.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song"

Being an HD player and the fact that I love wood, I decided to try some different woods and a bone and horn for picks. From left the right is Palmwood, Coconut, BONE, Ebony, HORN, Tamarind and Haldu. Tried them quickly and yes they each sound different some more than others. And they feel great. Just came today.

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If you were going for an instrument with a larger sound board, an HD, then wood type is very important. The best woods are AAA redwood, becoming very pricey, but the grain is tight and strait and you get great rich deep tones. Next would be red cedar, then American Mahogany. For bright tones you want a grain that is not as straight such as lacewood. The sound turns back on itself and the tone is very "bright". But for a MD, with a smaller sound board the difference of woods is more esthetic. Ken is correct, don't get spruce top. The wood tends to be too soft, and at least to me, the sound is sort of tiny. You might also want to consider a used McSpadden. There are numerous resales currently on the web. I just an early pre McSpadden name brand for very little. Coming today, I will post a pic.

Thanks, @ken-hulme, that's very helpful.  I'm going to presume the luthiers at both Folkcraft and McSpadden surpass my "junior luthier wannabee" skills, LOL!  The dulcimer I made is all book-matched black walnut--gorgeous wood.  At the moment, I'm leaning in a McSpaddenly direction, eyeing that cherry w/redwood top combo.  The walnut is gorgeous, but I have walnut.  Life is short, variety is called for.  I prefer darker/redder woods, rather than the lighter, sort of yellow like the spruce.

Which it means pulling of a possibly glued bridge and drilling more holes into the soundboard?

Yes, they go under the bridge/saddle of the dulcimer.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

I just tested the Kmise. It works fine, no soundboard tap or anything. If you tap directly on the unit it will produce a noise, so I might have to move its location, if I find that I touch it while playing. Probably because it is created for a small soundboard, has a volume control, and has worked well for violins as I have learned. The Schaller, as yet I don't know. It is a powerful pickup and might give me ambient noise problems. The Kmise was useless on the HD. The sound pickup radius was very limited. It didn't work well on a 16/15 and was of no value on my bigger HD. 

In regards to the under saddle pickups? Don't they have to go under the bridge or are limited by the type of sound hole?

I, too, will be interested in your reaction to these pickups. I started out with the Schaller Oyster and also tried the Dean Markley Artist pickup. Both created too much ambient noise as I handled the dulcimer. I switched to under saddle piezo pickups and have been happy with them.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Nathina, I will be curious to read of your reaction to these pickups on a mountain dulcimer.  The criticism of all external piezo pickups is that they capture every vibration, so as the instrument shifts on your lap or you touch the top with your hand, those sounds get magnified.  That might not be a problem with the hammered dulcimer, which is why your experience has been so good, although the size of a HD probably warrants one of those systems with two or more pickups to catch the range of the instrument.  I am eager to hear of your experiences with these pickups on the MD.