Forum Activity for @foggers
I forgot to give my personal top 10! I already named some fave ballads and there are others too:Barbara AllenTwo SistersThe Outlandish KnightSweet William and Lady MargaretArise AriseLittle SadieBut for me the other side of OT music is the tunes that were for dancing rather than singing and tend to have nonsense or repetitive verse/chorus structures, or no words at all:Sourwood MtnClinch Mtn BackstepGive the Fiddler a dram ( it is a favourite family hobby to make up more silly verses for this!)Swing and Turn JubileeIn fact it is difficult to limit it to 10 - my list will change a lot as I learn new songs and tunes as I am still a beginner with only a limited knowledge of repertoire!
Hi - am interested in the debate AND the music! That website is really interesting and I like the article that explores the term "old time" - I guess it means that rural people did not realise their music was "old time" until Okeh records (and later the radio stations) labelled it as such!Discussion about defining musical genres can be full of pitfalls and different interpretations (take a look at the endless theads on the Mudcat cafe about "What is Folk music?" to see what I mean - it usually descends into a slanging match there!). However, I feel confident that FOTMD is a much more polite and friendly place and that we can discuss and explore without falling out!Folkfan - I am interested in the distinction you pick up about doing old songs and tunes but not necessarily in an "old time " style. This is tricky for me - I would sound darned stoopid as an english woman trying to sing appalachian songs in a suitable accent, though you are quite right that some pronunciations need to be preserved for the rhymes to work.I am playing MD and banjo in OT styles though, and keep the song arrangements simple. My voice is not a trained voice, so I sing in a simple and not overly developed timbre . Like you a love the old ballads (barbara Allen, Two Sisters,The Outlandish Knight, Sweet William and Lady Margaret) and I think the focus should be on telling the tale - afte all these songs lasted because people love a good yarn!I think that this way I can be true to the original spirit of OT music whilst also being realistic about acknowledging that I am 100 years and a whole ocean away from its US sources!
Bill, Here's a site that has a "description" of Old Time Music. http://www.oldtimemusic.com/ and from what it describes, I definitely don't qualify as an old time music player in that I make no attempt to capture the flavor of the mountain culture that spawned the music style. I simply sing old songs. Occasionally, on some of the Scottish songs, I have to pronounce the words in a Scottish way in order that the rhythm or rhyme of a song works. Hame instead of home for example. My Ain Folk rather than My Own Folk. But other than that, I sing with my Mid-Western accent in as natural a voice as I can use. Fortunately for the world, I sing in private. heheheheheee Bill Davenport said:
Thanks folkfan.
I can't answer my own question. I always hear about Old Time Music. 1920's era music? Bill Monroe with his mother before he "founded" bluegrass. I've read so many things, I'm just not sure myself.
It's hard to "peg" an old time tune. That's why I put this out there.
Jump in anybody.
Hi Bill, Your question is a good one, but not one that I can really answer. I play a lot of old songs and ballads, Really old songs, but I don't play "Old Time Music". I don't play in the style that I understand "Old Time Music" has.Some of my songs would be: Barbara Allen, Eileen Aroon, Pretty Saro, The Riddle Song, Rue, Paper of Pins, Greensleeves, The False Knight on the Road, At the Foot of Yonders Mountain and a lot of songs from Scotland, like An Eriskay Love Lilt, Westering Home, Sound the Piobroch, Come By the Hills, Turn Ye To Me, MacPherson's Lament, Mairi's Wedding, and The Mingulay Boat Song. Hold old some of these are I really don't know.
the Queen family of Jackson Co NC
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
I'm sure Mrs. Queen was a treasure to those who knew her.Rest in peace, Mary Jane Queen.
the Queen family of Jackson Co NC
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Neat story, Lois. I'd love to get to see Mrs Queen in person to hear her play and sing!
the Queen family of Jackson Co NC
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Thanks, Greg, I searched Henry Queen and found the site!
the Queen family of Jackson Co NC
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Although I do not know the Queen family personally, I do have a DVD copy of the PBS program. Like other mountain families, their music has been passed down from generation to generation. Henry Queen has a website where you can purchase a copy of the DVD or one of their CD's. The matriarch of the family is Mary Jane Queen, who has a CD out on which she sings mostly old Appalachian ballads similar to what Cecil Sharp was collecting in the early 1900's. Henry Queen's music falls somewhere between old-time and bluegrass.Greg "Banjimer"
the Queen family of Jackson Co NC
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
It'd be fun to sit down and play some tunes with you, Phil!
the Queen family of Jackson Co NC
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Hey Robin-yes, we have a good many dulcimer players in these parts. I am a member of 4 clubs, so there is usually something going on. If y'all ever come this way give me a holler and we'll do some playin'. Robin Thompson said:
Phil, are there many other dulcimer players in your neck of the woods?
the Queen family of Jackson Co NC
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Phil, are there many other dulcimer players in your neck of the woods?
the Queen family of Jackson Co NC
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
I don't know the Queens but I live in the next county over from them-Macon county. There are alot of very good musicians around these parts-mostly banjo, mandolin, guitar and fiddle. I have played at places where the bluegrass musicians are fascinated with the MD. They can't believe all of the music we can play on those little things and they ask all kinds of questions.Phil
the Queen family of Jackson Co NC
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
In his blog, Bill Lewis mentioned he watched a program on PBS about the Queen family from Jackson County NC. Anybody here know the Queens? The documentary looks great and I'd like to see it.
updated by @robin-thompson: 01/15/16 10:25:51AM
Two mode/tuning/notation questions.
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Timothy and Folkfan, thanks much. You have both been very helpful.I've been picking out a tune in each of the church modes as a learning exercise. The Locrian mode is fascinating -- though useless perhaps -- because it seems such a pathological case.Frank Singer says, "Modal harmony is exclusive, meaning only scale tones are used to construct the chords of the harmonic progressions."However, he goes on to say, "Lydian and Locrian do not produce harmonic progression, as the I chords in these modes don't produce a feeling of resolution using secondary chords containing unique notes from the mode". (Emphasis mine.)(There's a sharpened 4th in the Lydian and of course the flatted fifth in the Locrian mode.)Finally, the one near-Locrian example I could come up with (the Berceuse theme from Stravinsky's Firebird) does in fact use both natural and flatted fifths. It still sounds pretty evil. ;)Thanks again for your thoughtful answers.Ken
Two mode/tuning/notation questions.
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
The use of 1-5-5, 1-5-8, 1-5-7 etc to denote the scale patterns for the modes was because the bass and middle string were always tuned to the drone while the melody string was tuned to put the starting note of the scale at the correct fret. So DAA# or Bb would be the standard way to write the notation for the Locrian mode when you only use the 6th fret. It puts the starting note of the scale at the 2nd fret. No matter what key you are using.However is you do have a 6+ fret and use it and try DAE for Locrian with scale starting at the 6+fret. That's a modern twist on things.As to the A drone, remember that the Locrian mode is considered the most discordant of the modes. It is considered more of an experimental or theoretical mode than a true playing mode which is why there is so little music written for it. In other words it's the Devil's Mode and it sounds awful which is how it is suppose to sound ;-) Again, however, if there are certain strums for drones like the DAA# just don't hit the DA drones but just the A#.Personally Locrian is so discordant and disagreeable to my ear that I never use it. But I don't enjoy badly tuned bagpipes either, ;-) 8-)
Two mode/tuning/notation questions.
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Questions in bold face.I ran into this question looking at the Locrian mode, which may be the only place that it arises with fifths tuning (e.g. 151, 155), but it revealed a general misunderstanding on my part of the notation used to describe dulcimer tunings and modes.The table below contains the Locrian scale in D for a dulcimer tuned DABb with Bb as the melody string. The first column is the note, the second is the melody string fret required to obtain that note, and the third is number (scale degree) of the note in the D Locrian scale.D 2 1Eb 3 2F 4 3G 5 4Ab 6 5Bb 7 6C 8 7Recall that we're tuned DABb. Let's assume that The D and A strings are unfretted drones.The first misunderstanding I have is that the 5th degree of the Locrian scale in D appears to be Ab rather than A. Yet each time we strum the three strings we sound an A drone, and the A note is not found in the D Locrian scale.So my question is "why is there an A drone in a tuning intended for the Locrian mode in the key of D?"The second (and related) thing I don't understand is the notation. I have seen DABb referred to as a 1-5-6b tuning. It appears that the scale degrees in this notation are always given in terms of Ionian degrees.Example: Looking at all three strings, 1-5-6b corresponds to DABb in the D Ionian scale, whereas it corresponds to DAbA in the D Locrian scale.)Do we always give scale degrees in terms of Ionian degrees when using this notation? Not a problem either way of course. I'm just trying to understand the notation.Thanks for taking a look at this!!Ken
updated by @flint-hill: 02/20/19 01:57:50PM
John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry
OFF TOPIC discussions
This piqued my interest because one of my ancestors was thought to be a part of John Brown's raiders. My mom has a book that I need to read to get more information. Thanks, Teri
John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry
OFF TOPIC discussions
Jill Jalbert said:
Hey are you another banjo player?Assuming you meant me -- I have had a banjo (or several) since about 1963-64, but never got especially good at playing them. Basically, I played guitar, and collected other old folk instruments (not guitars). I learned to play something on all of them -- both sorts of dulcimer, fretless banjo, mandolin, fiddle, balalaika, Jew's harp -- just whatever turned up. I sometimes participate in the "Minstrel Banjo" world, because those guys are interested in the earlier, historical instruments -- they learn the tunes from early method books (pre-1865 ones, because a lot of them are CW reenactors) and generally strive for an authentic 19th century sound. Which is very different from modern banjo styles, played on modern instruments.Dick
John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry
OFF TOPIC discussions
Thanks for posting this Razyn.. when I hear of John Brown's raid at Harper's Ferry... I always think of the interesting fact of who the 2 main union officers involved in capturing John Brown were. A Colonel Lee and a Sergent Stuart.... later to be both major Generals in the Confederacy... General Robert E. Lee and General Jeb Stuart...
John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry
OFF TOPIC discussions
The Battle Hymn of the Republic was written to fit the tune of (some would say, partly inspired by) the more or less comic song "John Brown's body;" which in turn was based upon the camp-meeting hymn "Say, brothers, will you meet me, On Canaan's happy shore;" which was also newly in print around the time of John Brown's raid, i.e. 150 years ago. (Actually, I think that hymn was published in 1858, but I'm a little fuzzy on the details w/o looking it up.)Dick
John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry
OFF TOPIC discussions
The Civil War or the War Between the States and all that led up to it are definitely watershed events in our history which should be recognized. Many horrible things happened during that time and they were recorded in the music from the period. We need to remember the time and honor the people that lived through it and what better way than to sing and play the music they wrote, in order to let them speak again.
John Brown's raid on Harper's Ferry
OFF TOPIC discussions
... was 150 years ago today (well, tonight), if anyone cares.I mentioned this yesterday on the (Ning) Minstrel Banjo forum, and the only responders so far are a couple of yahoos who think I'm trying to honor the memory of a terrorist. I'm not, OK? It was a watershed event, it happened 150 years ago, and I'm pointing that out. So, dress up and do your 1859 thing. Starting in just a couple of years, it will be the 150th anniversary of some Civil War event, most all the time -- for four years. Think of the gig possibilities.Dick
updated by @razyn: 01/13/19 05:09:18PM
I just made a twelve string guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
All-around wonderful, Dick.For sure, I'll never attempt to build a 12-string guitar! Seems a 6-string would be half as much trouble. :)
I just made a twelve string guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
Dick - what a super instrument, and just in time for his 40th! I know I treasure the dulcimers made for me by my partner Richard and I am sure your son will feel that way too. There is nothing to match the knowledge that someone has cared enough to spend so many hours (of trouble!) to create a unique and priceless gift.
I just made a twelve string guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
Oh Dick what a marvelous story, and such great photos!It made my evening to read it. :)
I just made a twelve string guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
That trick worked like a charm -- when Matt stepped into the restaurant, he said to his wife and son, "That guy looks a lot like Pappy." (It's true, I do.) I'll post a couple more shots -- the first, taken by Matt's wife Nancy, showing the happy camper after he got it home:
That's to show off the kid (Kathy and I made him, too); and the quilt on the wall behind the kid (Kathy also made that, about 15 years ago). Here's one closeup of the axe:
That inlay is my "Kolibri" maker's mark, since 1992. This guitar is only Kolibri #4; I spend much larger amounts of my life not out in the wood shop. Kolibri is "hummingbird," in Russian (and many other languages). There are, technically, no hummingbirds native to Russia; but the first two Kolibri instruments were balalaikas (a sekunda for Kathy, and a kontrabass for me). Those larger sizes are hard to find for sale, so I just made them. Kolibri #3 is a regular (six string) dreadnought guitar, and is featured on some tracks of the CDs recorded by our other son, Ben: http://www.myspace.com/benhulanmusic That 6-string was the first guitar I made, but Matt was the first kid we made. And all of the above -- wife, kids, various instruments and whatnot -- even 12-string guitars -- have given me a lot of joy, over a lot of years. Here, for example, is one from the summer of 1965:
I rest my case.Dick
I just made a twelve string guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
WOW, that is cool Dick. That's on my to do list also, for my brother that plays guitar. Thanks for showing.Bill
I just made a twelve string guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
Well actually I started it in 2002, but got distracted... these things are a lot of trouble to make, and after I got the basic box made I put it away for a looong time. It was supposed to be a Christmas present for my elder son, then 33. This summer I decided it was time to get off the dime and finish it; so for over a month, unbeknownst to him, I've been doing stuff like drilling the holes for the tuners (trouble), cutting out the pearl and inlaying my hummingbird maker's mark (trouble), sanding out all the little scorch marks left by the hot bearing on the router that cut the channels for the binding (trouble), putting on three coats of sealer and six coats of varnish (lotta trouble -- and I couldn't do it in the air conditioned house, because my wife gets migraines from the fumes), gluing on the bridge (scary trouble), fitting the 12 little boxwood bridge pins (easy, but tedious), fitting the saddle and nut, and filing 12 notches in the nut (trouble), setting and gluing in the neck (more scary trouble), and stringing it up. You never really know if the action and intonation are OK until you do this -- and it's the last step. I strung it late Saturday night. Then I had to file and recrown two frets (they were done in 2002) -- but other than that, it was fine.Today we are going to Roanoke to give it to him on his 40th birthday. He totally doesn't know it -- we cooked it up with his wife. She's taking him to a restaurant out of town, and (surprise) we'll be sitting in the restaurant. And sometime during dinner I'll remember that I had this out in the car. Basically, it's a Martin D-12-28 (it began with wood from their shop), only a lot more handmade.
updated by @razyn: 06/11/15 07:21:53AM
A simple dulcimer or scheitholt with a floating bridge?
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Thanks much Lisa. I'll check out Ben's site right now.
A simple dulcimer or scheitholt with a floating bridge?
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Yes indeed, a man after my own heart! ;DConsider Ben Seymour of North Carolina. Ben is not only reasonably priced (in my opinion), but he is very into the early scheitholt reproductions and will build you just about anything you desire. Here is his website's page of 'Scheitholtesque Beauties' .Ben made my wonderful cherry Galax dulcimer and I can't recommend him highly enough. Ben also happens to be a member here on FOTMD, here is Ben's Page here on this site.
A simple dulcimer or scheitholt with a floating bridge?
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
I want to buy a simple but high-quality scheitholt or dulcimer with a floating bridge or saddle. (By which I mean a bridge or saddle that's held in place by string tension alone and that's not glued or pinned to the fretboard or soundboard. The term's usage seems variable, but that's what I mean.)I want a floating bridge so I can change string gauges freely without resorting to woodwork to restore intonation. I don't mind notching 2 or 3 bridges for different gauge ranges. The goal is to be able to experiment freely.Other things I'd like are:* Durability and a general a lack of finickiness other than that occasioned by the floating bridge.* Playability.* Decent sustain.* Nice, silvery sound when strung with, for example, three 0.010" strings.* Tight, somewhat restrained bass response when using a wound bass string. No need for a big, guitar-like bottom end (though it's not a deal-killer in an otherwise suitable instrument).* Trapezoidal scheitholt or teardrop shape.* Iron zither pins (preferably) or planetary tuners as opposed to wooden pegs or worm-gear tuners.* Metal frets, probably using fret wire, but stapled frets are OK too if they work well.* Simple, somewhat antique appearance. For example, round soundhole(s), no binding, purfling or bookmatching, no obvious modernity other than frets, tuners and finish.So far this looks fairly close to Karl Gotzmer's Americanized scheitholt .Are there others I should be considering? Should cost less than $500. Much less than $500 is certainly a plus. (Karl's scheitholt is around $200.)Thanks for looking this over.
updated by @flint-hill: 06/08/16 09:24:05PM
I would have liked to have been there as well but learned about it just too late. I have Warren's 100th burl Walnut hourglass book matched dulcimer. It has a lot of use on it but is very beautiful still. It plays well and sounds wonderful. I resisted putting geared tuners on it and I'm glad now that I did. The only ding is one near a sound hole made from a microphone dropping on it during a radio interview at WHAS many, many years ago. Other than that it is in perfect condition. I have several others that Warren built but this is by far my favorite.
It is too bad that this was not publicized more. I would have loved to have been there!~
updated by @teri-west: 02/15/16 10:22:03AM