Forum Activity for @ken-hulme

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

No real excuse for a high action on a mountain dulcimer.  Slides and tremelos are easier to do with a properly set action.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The only reason I can think of for higher actions is performing a slide or tremelo. Are there others?

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

As I wrote, tune the open strings to be in tune.

A couple of basic concepts here are:
1) the mere act of tuning = stretching the string to various tensions, causing the note to go higher or lower. If an open string is out of tune, you turn the pegs and tune it to be in tune. Just because a nut notch is higher or lower than the one next to it won't doom an open string to be out of tune by nature.

2) as to fretted strings: if a bridge/nut is very tall and makes the string action too high off the frets, then fretting the string can push down the string enough of a distance to cause a slight bend in the string and pull it a fretted note a little sharp. A 32nd of an inch slot height difference is not likely to do this enough to be able to hear it, especially while playing tunes.

Notches have two jobs: to keep the strings securely spaced from each other from side to side, and to hold the strings at a good height above the frets (action) so that playing will be comfortable for the way you play and so there won't be buzzing if the action is too low. Most folks like as low an action as possible without buzzing (especially beginners with hurting fingers), but there are good reasons why other folks might want slightly higher action. Too high an action causes problems too. Most people agree that dulcimer string notches should be of uniform action height, since there's no reason to purposely make them different heights.

The tiny amount of difference between notches in your photo of notches is probably not going to cause discernable out of tune-ness when playing. If a notch is a tiny bit too low though, it might cause fret buzzing, depending on the action height.

3) Assuming a reasonable action height for all strings, if the frets are in the right places, your fretted notes will sound generally in tune if the open string is in tune. 

Overall, it's common that people wind up buying used dulcimers that have had prior owners file nut and bridge slots to various heights and widths over time. Maybe they put on heavier strings at some point and widened the slots. Two of those U slots in your picture look way too wide for that string shown. Over time or with changing playing preferences, people can change their mind about action height they prefer, or string spacings. It's not uncommon for nuts and bridges to accumulate notch adjustments over time until the best option is to put in a new nut and/or bridge and start fresh, since nuts are cheap and it's usually a simple procedure. A good guitar luthier should have no trouble doing it right, and the job shouldn't cost a fortune.

updated by @strumelia: 11/17/20 03:17:36PM

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General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Yes. Thanks!

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

How does that work? Tune them while fretted? Wouldn’t that cause it to be flat when unfreted? If they’re stretched different amounts I can’t see how they would make the same note. Maybe it wouldn’t be enough to notice depending on the difference in height off the fretboard. Isn’t it customary to set the action for all strings to the same height?

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hi Jan - it would be good to get them until the end of November - will this be working for you?

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I am no professional luthier so take this with a grain of salt, but I find it to be very important that the two melody strings played together have the same action as one another. In my experience the quality of intonation and the comfort of playing can be messed up quite a bit by the action at the nut or the bridge being too high.  It is hard to get a sense of just how big the difference is but I know that if it is great enough this can cause the strings to have slightly different VSLs and therefore if the open strings are tuned exactly the same, *fretted* notes will not have the same intonation. In my experience having a string too high up will cause fretted notes to be a bit sharp, which can be compensated for with the bridge placement, but that becomes much trickier when the two strings are not equally high, as you would have to place the bridge in a way that compensates for the height of either one string or the other. I agree that the easiest solution would be to take a triangular file and simply bring the new slot to the same depth as the outer melody string, or to ask a luthier to do it if you are not comfortable doing it. 
Moreover as others have said, the difference may be too small to matter, again, it is hard to get a sense of scale from the photo.

updated by @nate: 11/17/20 04:49:11AM

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Ariane, what's the deadline for getting our videos or audio clips to you?

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

You tune it so it's not sharp. You tune all your open strings to be in tune.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

You are adjusting the stretch of each string independently as to obtain the note.If you want to stretch it more, the note goes up the scale, until the tensile strength of the string is reached and they break.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Wouldn’t one be sharp as it is stretched more?

Bridge and Nut fix question

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No difference in tone.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

There shouldn't be any difference in tone as you are using a tuner to bring it into true. Tone would vary by quality of string.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The difference is only a few thousandths of an inch. I suspect any difference in tone would be difficult to detect even with top notch equipment.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

On the HD, all choruses are doubled, and each string is offset from the other, thus the "stretch" is different but the sound is the same. I see no reason why it wouldn't be the same for the md. In fact the chorus strings are also offset in the head.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Won’t the two strings sound different as one is stretched more that the other? I assume it’s important to have the action the same, especially for two strings tuned the same.

The dulcimer is a kit and was assembled by a boyfriend. It looks like the piece on the bridge was “adjusted” by putting two short pieces of zip tie under it. I planed for both pieces to be replaced with properly cut and adjusted parts. Grooves cut correctly and action set properly.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

V notches are much more "acceptable" as string notches!    The string, regardless of gauge, will settle into the bottom of the V and not move back and forth.  The U shaped notches allow small diameter strings to shift back and forth which can cause issues including odd noises.  

For the gauge of strings shown, the V notch is not too deep or too shallow.  A notch does not need to be more that 2x the string diameter deep.    The fact that one string of the couplet will set not as deep as the other, might conceivably cause an issue, but the individual strings of a melody couplet aren't picked individually.

If you have a small triangular file you could deepen the new notch a hair with a couple strokes of the file.  I have a cheap set of half a dozen jewelers files that I got from Ace Hardware for under $10, and the triangle file has made a few hundred perfect notches.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

If it were me I'd get someone else to make a whole new nut. None of those 3 slots looks well made at all, though it's hard to tell anything for sure from the photo. Bad slots make for bad sounding notes, buzzes, and wolf tones.

KenL has it right though- have you determined that you want a pair of melody strings, or 4 equidistant strings? or.. the slots to switch between those two choices later if you want? Decide that first.
Also, remember the bridge will need to at least approximate a similar slot arrangement that echoes the nut.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

How does it compare in with the nut?

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The v is the new one. I expected to leave it with him but he whipped out the saw and worked on it then. I was surprised but gave him the benefit of the doubt. The more I thought about it the more I figured the two different depths would not be compatible.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I am assuming the fix is the large cuts and not the "v' shaped cuts. The saw cuts appear to be too wide to provide a good fit for the strings. They do lower the action. Was there a "v" where the left side (in the photo) cut was made? If so, it looks to be a wider separation of the melody strings. Does this dulcimer have a zero fret? A wider shot of the head stock and first fret would be helpful also. As it looks now, I think you need a new nut made for this dulcimer. You need to determine whether you want a double melody string, four equidistant strings, or a combination of the two.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Tune wise I work on the songs we choose for our weekly Zoom gathering over at The Traditional Mountain Dulcimore site. I currently have four mountain dulcimer builds in the works. Three are C.N. Prichard reproductions and one is a teardrop.  Prichard are walnut with butternut top, all curly maple, and all poplar. The teardrop is all poplar.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

...and I can already "sing" that is sounds wonderfully! You will hear it in the Advent Calendar behind one of the little doors...!

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thank you, Lisa.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Can't really tell what we're seeing here.  There appear to be a V notch and a couple round bottom slots, but what's the old and what's the new and where's the edge of the fretboard.  Which is which?  Are the round bottom slots the new fixes?

A saw slot is a fix.  But as a luthier I would have asked whether you wanted new slots or a new nut/bridge. 

Does the fix work or are you getting weird tones?  You should have said something to this person at the time, or specified "cut new slots versus replace the nut/bridge,  

The Positive Thread...

OFF TOPIC discussions

Ken, wishing you the very best and a quick recovery. Take care.

Bridge and Nut fix question

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Traildad, it is really difficult to make any determination from the photo.  When I increase the size of the picture, it is grainy and blurred.  

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Mark and I have been working with classical guitar & bowed dulcimer music in recent weeks.  When Ariane put out the call for music for the Advent Calendar, we decided to participate and take a leap, going with the instruments on which we are much less practiced.  It has been a fun challenge!  

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I love hearing how everyone's doing and what your current interests/projects are.

Terry, a special hug to you- It's so good to see your post. I'm so glad to hear you are slowly recovering, that's sounds like a terrible ordeal.
Simply playing soothing notes for five minutes can be a true balm for our souls. 

John, I bet your son has no idea that his interest in learning classical guitar is lifting up and inspiring YOU as well. 

Dusty, one of the things i love most about Renaissance and medieval era music is how so many of the tunes go back and forth in using a sharp and a natural. It always tickles my senses when the note occurs one way and then the other. I find most often the sharp comes later on, after the natural in the first part.

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Robin and Ariana, thank you.
It is a teardrop. I don’t know the wood, or the builder. No name anywhere. I believe it to be homemade, and if it is, I assume it wasn’t his/her first or last. Good job. Not crazy about the wooden pegs on the back that hold the string loops. But once I installed new strings to cgc, it TD stayed in tune beautifully. I like it.

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hi, Terry,

You've found a good therapist with the dulcimer. Enjoy.

I'm practicing classical guitar for the first time in many years. My adult son in California expressed an interest in learning and I offered to give him some Zoom lessons. I'm playing through the book I suggested he get, so that I don't embarrass myself too badly!

I'm also making friends with the new dulcimore I recently recieved from Dulcimore Dan. I'll be posting about that soon.

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hi Terry - I wish you further and speedy recovery and much fun with your new dulcimer.

(I have not been playing any instrument for some weeks now since I have kind of overstretched my left hand and hope that it will be possible again soon...I really miss it a lot.)

Take care!

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@terry-wilson So good to see you back!  My niece has been in a long period of recovery from COVID and it is difficult.  Take care and enjoy playing music again!  What size/shape/woods dulcimer did you find at the yard sale?  

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I am working on everything. Getting my hands & fingers used to playing again. From March until Oct didn’t play any instrument at all. Yes, I had a long recovery from COVID.

Two weeks ago I purchased a dulcimer at a yard sale for $50.00. Terrific purchase. With new strings, and a clean up, plays like new.

For now I just find myself fretting up and down the fretboard, making some , to my ears, wonderful sounds. Just making stuff up. The dulcimer is a wonderful instrument to have hold of during times like these.

Hello to all,
Terry

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I started learning my first DAaa tune. Buffalo Gals. I like the way the notes slide into each other in this song. My new dulcimer sounds really nice in DAaa tuning. 

If this is true the Piezo goes on the bottom?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Dusty I watched the video by David Beede. He is a fret board resonator believer which affects the soundboard so is probably in agreement with Doug Berch. His plastic card affects the soundboard not the bottom board otherwise there would be no difference, so it seems to prove that the top / fret board is more the resonator than the bottom.

If this is true the Piezo goes on the bottom?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks. The contention that the discussion is having, is that there is nothing resonating from the fret board or the top. All resonance comes from the bottom, as some believe. However, if that were true, I would think concentration would go into the bottom for better sound tone woods, and not the top, plus film piezo's when installed would be placed attached to the bottom and not the top. Obviously the entire unit vibrates, top bottom sides, but the sound board I would think is what makes the difference. Size of the sound box and type of sound tone wood on the top.Doug Berch designs his units with the fretboard in mind, believing the sound transmits from the fret board primarily. Even if so, it would enter the top before the bottom, so no contention. I did play with the pickup on the gibson and found that no quality came (dull) out of the side, or bottom but I found a spot on the sound board beside the bridge and slightly down from the sound hole that was the best. I also ordered another Ksime to use on the McSpadden, as the Schaller was too powerful for the small sound board. It was picking up everything and then some even from the next room. I know there are a lot of theories and each promotes their dulcimer designs the best. It becomes very confusing. I know woods, I know what to expect and what they can do, but my training seems to be put to the test, with unusual theories and ideas that I know cannot be good dynamically or acoustically.

If this is true the Piezo goes on the bottom?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Nathina, if you play the dulcimer in a traditional style, meaning it sits on your lap, the back cannot vibrate much at all.  That is one of the main reasons dulcimers have so much less volume than guitars.  The other reason is that the fingerboard traditionally lays right across the top, so the top can't vibrate much at all.  One reason some people get dulcimers with a false or galaz bottom is to allow the bottom to vibrate more, getting more volume.

But I don't see this as a choice.  Both the top and the bottom vibrate, but both are limited by the structure of the dulcimer.  If you want some proof that the top vibrates, check out this video by David Beede demonstrating his decoupled tailpiece .  Basically the more restrained the top, the brighter the sound, the less restrained the top, the louder and more mellow is the sound. If you want proof that the bottom vibrates, put it on your lap and strum a chord, then while the chord is sounding, lift the dulcimer up.  You will get a burst of volume as the bottom is allowed to vibrate.

I have one dulcimer with a pickup on the bottom and I don't like it very much.  To get a decent sound I need to play with an equalizer to get decent separation.  The internal pickup I like the best is in my McCafferty dulcimer. It's a K & K Sound twin spot piezo, so there are actually two different spots transmitting sound. Unfortunately, I don't know where those spots are, although I have to correspond with him on something else and I'll try to remember to ask.

If I am not mistaken, you have a pickup that attaches to the outside of the dulcimer.  Play around with that, putting it in different places.  I think you'll discover a lot about where the most resonant places on your dulcimer are.

If this is true the Piezo goes on the bottom?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Both of my dulcimers which have built in pickups have the pickup under the saddle/bridge. They are cut in to a slot in the fret board. I'll see if I can get a good photo of this tomorrow and post it here. Here is the one I put in my Folkcraft dulcimer. https://www.folkcraft.com/products/baggs-dulcimer-pickup-2851700

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

The Positive Thread...

OFF TOPIC discussions

Good luck.