Since my post on trademarks has been deleted, let me say...

Friends, I have no desire to argue with anyone on this site. As I said I am not a contentious person. After 50 years of building dulcimers I am certainly closer to building my last dulcimer than my first. If I am somehow in the wrong, I apologize.

Again, my feeling of being offended is that a person with no legal background or legal degree publicly stated that my trademarks have no validity (meaning Jenny Lind and Barbara Allen). I think any normal person would be offended when claiming a trademark on a name you have used for 50 years. Frankly, as I have repeatedly pointed out, I don’t give a damn about extended range one way or another. 

So at this point can someone please tell me how to delete my “account” to this site? There does not seem to be a simple way to do that.

And in leaving I would like to sincerely say I hope you all the best (including a certain moderator). My interactions with dulcimer people over my lifetime has been 99.9% positive and I truly believe dulcimer folks are the best people I have ever met. There seems to be something about the dulcimer that draws in good hearted people and I have tried to foster that community throughout my life. 

Being from Knott Co. KY, I began building dulcimers when I was a teenager, learning from a man, who learned from a man, who learned from Jethro Amburgey (I still have some of Jethro’s original patterns given to Charlie Whitaker). I’ve been proud of that heritage all my life and have diligently tried to carry it on in an honest way by selling dulcimers at a price that would expand the dulcimer community. I always thought that building a decent quality, easily playable instrument was better than building a high end dulcimer that only a few could afford. Looking back now, I realize I’ve made a minimal impact on the dulcimer community and like water flows to the sea it will all be washed away with time. But still, I hold out hope and pray that the dulcimer tradition lives on long, long after I am gone. I think the world, both young and old, desperately need this…. now more than ever.

So if someone can show me to the door… I would like to leave now. God Bless you all. And again, my sincere apologies to anyone I have offended,

I'd like to thank each of you for your great ideas, tips and advice. Rather than purchase another dulcimer, I decided to experiment with my 8-String Milford Blevins model. It has the longest VSL and widest fretboard among my dulcimers. I built a new nut and bridge to accommodate a 4-String DAD tuning setup, with 1 Drop D string included. Attached is an audio sample of what I've been wanting to do on Sal's Got Mud. I play each part once. Part A & B are played on the 'D' melody string, then part C is played on the middle 'A' string. Surprisingly, I don't miss the extra drop D and A strings. The wider fretboard allows me to comfortably pick the middle A without contacting the other strings.

The tonality and sustain is great. I did cut another sound port in the side of the body, which is matched to the opposite side. I originally determined that the top sound holes were not allowing enough of the sound to escape. These two sound ports really make a difference. Do you like the drop D drone? Does anyone else use a drop D string?

Sals_Got_Mud_BarnJam_Dulcimer.mp3  •  1.1MB

Whoops, I did notice that they were bones and still typed spoons for some reason lol. Similar, but still quite different. Either way, sounds like a cool group, as most lovers of folk music and instruments tend to be.

@nate Thank you. It’s a wonderful group of folks and we have a great time playing together. The famous Dom Flemons, The American Songster, is from Phoenix and used to play with the PHX OTMS. As you noticed there is a variety of instruments, These folks got me playing the dulcimer. I have about (7) dulcimers and each one is tuned differently.

I’m actually playing rhythm bones, which are a close relative of spoons. Many of the members of Rhythm Bones Society knew Percy Danforth, the “granddaddy of bones”. There are gentlemen like Steve Brown who shared the stage with The Chieftains and Barry “Bones” Patton, who performs internationally. Like the Appalachian Dulcimer, there is a rich history of bones players.

Looks like a lot of fun. I see that you are playing harmonica and spoons at the same time, which is no small feat, and the result is great.
Cool to see so many people coming together and playing different instruments in the second and third clip. Seems like a great time.

I learned Sal’s from the Phoenix Old Time Music Society. Here are three recordings we’ve done with various instruments and tempos, if you’re interested in hearing our versions.

Four of us (banjo, fiddle, guitar, harmonica)

Black River Barn Band

Yes, that is exactly right. That makes sense that the open D string would sound “better” than the fretted D on the A string. I like low action on the melody string, but I notice that the drone strings sound amazing with high action. I hear a noticeable difference in the resonance of the elevated strings. The drawback is that they can’t be fretted without going extremely sharp.

I wonder if the intonation is better in DAD tuning. I read that the dulcimer relies on averages, to give it its simplicity. Someday, I will buy a guitar with an adjustable nut and saddle, so I can perfectly intonate each string. Are there any dulcimers that have that feature?

Are you saying that you like the tone of the melody string when it plays the tonic D note on the open string?... as opposed to the melody string tuned to A and you playing the tonic d note on the 3rd fret?
I think the tone of fretted strings are inherently slightly more 'closed' sounding than open strings... is that what you mean?  That's one reason oldtime banjo players use various tunings... to take advantage of ringing open strings as much as possible.
But I'm sure others will have great input on this. 

P.S. what version source of Sal/Mud are you learning?

@strumelia Thanks for that tip. I can see how the noter would fit more easily between close frets. I like the speed and tactile feel I get from my bare fingers.

So I tried playing Sal’s Got Mud on the A string, and it works well on the Milford Blevins 8-String because it has a VSL of 28.25”. There is plenty of room from left to right.

Here’s my next dilemma. I don’t like the tonal quality of the A string, played in the key of D, as much as I like the D played in D. My new question is about intonation. Have you found that mountain dulcimers sound better in DAD than DAA?

I’ve tried many string configurations and gauges. I even had custom small gauge wound strings custom made (.11 and .13). They work best on an electric guitar or dulcimer. Bassist Garry Goodman hand winds these specialty strings.

@barnjam ... just from my personal viewpoint-  when playing oldtime tunes up high in the second octave solely on the melody string,  -because i play with a noter  I do not have the problem of my fingertips sliding quickly between frets that are very close together.  Just putting that little bug in your ear!  

I refreshed my memory on playing melody jn DAA, and the results are as follows. I truly enjoy the rich tonal quality of playing on the lower octave. The upper octave however is limited (as mentioned by someone).

Example: Sal’s Got Mud Between Her Toes

DAD tuning is ideal for parts A & B. I start on the low octave and play into the higher octave. Part C is where I prefer DAA tuning, because I quickly run out of frets/notes on the lower octave. I can play it on the middle A string, but that’s not as seamless as walking down the fretboard to finish the Part C.

If the dulcimer was a bit larger, diatonic, and had some extra frets on the upper register….would I be able to play all three parts on the melody string? I’m going to do some test recordings and share the results.

That's a great write up!

Hi Ron. I'm not sure how you got the impression that I am " on the side of those who steal trademarks". With all due respect, I think that is a bit unfair.
Trademarks and patents serve different purposes. There's a difference between trademarking a name, term, or logo/mark (like the name Pepsi, or the the Apple logo)... and patenting a design or invention for something new ( a new style of floor lamp that looks unique, a new cancer drug). Additionally, patents fall into either a utility patent or design patent category, which are separate things from each other.
Have you gotten design patents for your distinct dulcimer models? Have you had the proper names Jenny Lind, or Kentucky trademarked?  
I don't think anyone is suggesting that it's ok for someone to purposely copy the artistic design along with the model name you give to your dulcimers in order to make money off your efforts unfairly. 

However, the question was asked about ways to extend the musical range on a dulcimer. Adding strings, increasing scale length, changing the tuning, adding a second fretboard...are methods that immediately come to mind. We are always discussing adding or removing strings, altering the box size or shape, using different kinds of wood, or changing string gauges to acheive different effects and expanded musical purposes.

Skip, in his original post he said "I wish it were a tad longer so that I could get the best of DAA and DAD tuning, allowing me to walk down the fretboard on the melody string alone." Which i assume means that he wants notes below A to be available on the melody string.

@Barnjam you might consider trying to tune your instrument D3A3D3, (you will need to put a bass string where you would normally put a melody string) such that the melody string is the same pitch as the bass string, which would allow you to have a range of D3 to D5 on the melody string, assuming 2 octaves of frets. This would allow you to play "melodies on the bass string" using the first octave of frets on the melody string, and the second octave of frets will correspond to the notes you would normally get on the melody string. It may be the easiest solution, if you like the feel of it, and that gives you the notes you want.

Thanks for moving this to the proper category. Interestingly, Richard Ash at Folkcraft has a great write up on the subject of hands, fingers, and VSLs.

https://folkcraft.com/pages/how-to-choose-the-right-scale-length-for-your-new-dulcimer

Oh- I just now noticed that this excellent discussion was posted in the "How Do I..?" forum, which is intended for questions on how to navigate this site. (a very understandable thing for a new member to do)
I've now MOVED this thread to the "Instruments/specific features..." forum. I don't think moving it will cause any issues, but just letting you all know. Carry on!

As an example; Standard, 28.5" VSL McSpadden tuned DAA will do exactly what you just described. Any dulcimer with the same fret layout will also meet that criteria. The caveat is the frets are really close together at the high notes.

DAA is a 155 tuning so just about any 155 tuning [w/correct strings] would work. Other modal tunings may or may not result in 2 full octaves.

DAd [158] may also work since the McSpadden has the 6.5 and 13.5 frets.

It means you asked a good question that hits on interesting ideas. :)

It may be helpful to know: what exactly is the range of notes that you would like to have access to on your melody string? 

I never expected my question to make the rounds, but a lot of great information and ideas are being shared. John Knopf to had some great ideas as well. One thought is to make the fretboard longer, but tune the melody string to something other than D. I’m thinking A (like in DAA tuning). From that point you play it like it’s tuned in D, leaving the lower frets available. Hopefully I got that all right.

Well let me close the circle.  @Barnjam started this thread because he found it difficult to fret the middle string, so he sought a longer dulcimer with extended range on each individual string. If you click the link to Ron Gibson's "extended range" dulcimer that @Marko provides, you will see that the strings are very close together and there is little room on the outside of the melody and bass string.  My hands are not that large, but I would find the fretboard on that dulcimer to be insufficiently wide.  Folkcraft also created a 5-string dulcimer called the MaxDAD, which was basically a standard and a bass dulcimer together.  It was tuned DADAD (not sure how to indicate the octaves there).  But their first version of it did not work precisely because the strings were too close together.  So they widened the fretboard to make it more comfortable to play.  One reason I don't own any McSpaddens is that despite the consistently high quality of the tone, the fretboard is so narrow that if you bend the bass or melody string, you often move the string off the end of the fretboard.

What this demonstrates, I think, is that the wideness of the fretboard and the distance between strings is an important variable, perhaps more important that VSL even, and yet it is one that gets little attention either by builders or by players.

I don't know how practical it might be to build a longer dulcimer to add more frets and perhaps get an extra octave on each string, but the issue @Barnjam is dealing with is a common one that should be addressed by builders and players as we customize our instruments.

You may as well try to trademark the name "Black Cat".
(But I shouldn't have veered as far off Barnjam's topic as I did. Will try to behave now.) 

I wonder what the ramifications are for STUMELIA tm and the DUSTY TURTLE tm?? Not to mention FOTMD TM....

Well, now that is very interesting, indeed!

As an aside concerning trademarks:
@marko, that is very interesting about a trademark on the term "extended range". I've been a patent/trademark illustrator for the past 25 years as my  living, and i also have applied for and owned trademarks for terms myself and have read the rules about what types of phrases or words can be trademarked or registered.

"Anyone can use a TM symbol regardless of whether they've successfully registered the trademark, or whether they've applied for a trademark at all. Simply placing the TM symbol does not provide any legal protection by itself."

I also highly doubt the US Patent Trademark Office would grant a registered trademark to a generic phrase like "extended range" by itself. It is not a unique term, word, or phrase. One example of a unique design patent that is successfully registered would be Dwain Wilder's "FlexiFrets"®. 
Mr. Gibson also has put "TM" after other names on his site such as "Jenny Lind", "Barbara Allen", and even "Kentucky".... all of which are simply long established proper names in common use which cannot be registered as legal trademarks. A trademarked word or phrase that is actually registered has the ® symbol after it. And it's against the law to use the ® symbol without being officially registered with the USPTO.
In other words, I don't think we need to worry here about any legalities in using the words "extended range" when discussing extending the range of an instrument.  

@barnjam"> I don't mean to step on anybody's toes, but would just like to point out that the term "Extended Range" dulcimer is a registered trademark owned by Ron Gibson. https://gibsondulcimers.com/extended_range™_dulcimers.html

It's basically a normal 4-string dulcimer combined with a 3-string baritone dulcimer, having a total of 5 strings. It's useful if you want to "dip below" that low D. Although Ron Gibson takes credit for inventing the concept, I built two such instruments before I ever even heard of him ;-) 

@Dusty, there are 3 octaves across all three strings, 0-6 on the bass then 0-14 [DAd] in the melody [and various combos using the middle string]. Three on one string is something else, probably huge to be usable.

@Skip, you are correct that the way most luthiers make their dulcimers, a longer VSL just means larger spaces in between fret wire, for the fretboard is usually fixed at a little more than two octaves (most have 17, 18, or 19 frets).  However, there is no reason that has to be the case.  A dulcimer with a long enough VSL could be configured for 3 full, usable octaves. 

I personally would have no use for such a dulcimer, but it is theoretically possible to build one.

This is an example of how different our approaches to playing and therefore our design preferences can be.  One reason I love my McCafferty dulcimer is that it has only 14 frets but an extended strum hollow, allowing the right hand a more comfortable angle and more room to play.  I also had the luthier bring the strings closer together for me, for I find it easier to play fast when the strings are closer together.  And the 25" scale length means I can fret chords with ease.

@Barnjam clearly has different needs than I.  He is seeking a dulcimer with a longer VSL to accommodate an extra octave and greater space between the strings to accommodate his large hands.

I forgot to say you would need 17 frets, not counting 1/2 frets to get 2 octaves A [low] to D [high] on one string.

I've found the experts! I'm impressed with all the good ideas and knowledge amongst you. I find this musical journey to be quite fascinating. There are so many factors that can affect the music we play.

I'm a bit confused by all of this. Fourteen frets is two diatonic octaves, D to D or A to A or whatever, regardless of the VSL. A longer VSL [fretboard] just increases the distance between frets. It doesn't 'add' any any notes. A wider fretboard increases space between strings, but so can adjusting the middle string closer to the bass string. My recommendation would be to get something with a long VSL and adjust the string spacing between the middle and bass string. A nut set up for single or double melody strings has a wider space between these two strings built in [usually about 1/8"] by removing the inner melody string.

@barnjam ...remember you don't 'have to' play in the key of D, either. And having a chromatic means you don't have to worry about the usual diatonic 'gaps' in the fretboard when choosing your tunings and keys. 

Yikes.  I once started using .009 strings to tune to dulcimer high D (D4) on a 28" scale. The strings tuned to the note ok, but they were so thin that they broke all too often often while playing. So I went back to using .010 for my melody strings to tune to high D.  But i can't even imagine doing that with a 35" scale length (!) and a .007 string. 
Does that "Stringjoy" Tension Calculator tell you when one of its suggestions would likely result in a string that breaks, or a string that is too slack?  I doubt it includes such useful info. I suspect that like any non-human, all it will inform you of is what numbers are correct for the calculation.  BUT... if anyone could actually do that experiment Nate, it would be YOU!    

More good information to consider. I think some combination of DAA tuning with a wider fretboard would be the best solution, without getting into expensive custom builds. I appreciate your time and knowledge on this.

Strumelia could you please elaborate on that?

The "stringjoy string tension calculator" says that a 35" VSL tuned to D4 with a 0.007 gauge string (lowest Ive seen in an ernie ball pack) will have ~13 lb of tension. 

Another factor when making the fretboard longer and longer is that, depending on what notes you want to tune the strings to, you will have to choose string gauges that will enable you to tune to those notes on that length of fretboard. The trick is that although you'll have a range of choices by choosing various gauges, the choices are not unlimited as to how heavy(low) and how thin(high) you can go for a particular length of fretboard and choice of open string note. You can't for example tune to a dulcimer high D on a fretboard that is 35" long... the required string would be so thin it would snap under tension long before being tuned to high d. The opposite is true as well (trying to tune to very low notes on a very short fretboard... the required string would be impossibly fat and slack).

Yes, I do prefer to only play on the melody string although I have fun playing melody on the bass string sometimes. I have a chromatic Weissenborn, and I enjoy it, but it forces me to think more. My diatonic dulcimers are fun to play because my precision can be lower, with less frets. Thanks Nate. All great ideas.

I think an important question is: do you prefer to only play on the melody string, or would you prefer to be able to fret all three strings?
If you're only fretting the melody string out of compromise, then a wider fretboard could solve your problem.

A dulcimer does not have all the frets of the chromatic scale, which is why the major scale must start on either the open string for DAd (1-5-8) or the 3rd fret for DAA (1-5-5) if you want to have all the notes in the major scale. For this reason, if you wanted to tune the melody string lower than A and still get all the notes of the D major scale, you would have to add extra frets. For example, if you tuned the instrument DAG, there would be no fret for C#, unless you add a 3.5 fret. You could potentially set the fret layout to allow your melody string to be tuned to any note, though it would look strange for some. Or with a chromatic instrument, you could just tune it any old way and always have all the needed frets for your D major scale.

It's possible to tune the melody string lower and add extra frets, but could lead to it's own problems, like if you wanted to play melody on the bass string, your melody string would no longer be a harmonious drone to accompany it.

I see that the dulcimer you showed a photo of has two full octaves of frets plus 3 frets of the third octave. If you have large fingers, it will definitely be difficult to try to fret in those teeny tiny spaces, and if you add more frets to the high end, the gaps between them only get smaller.

The longer the VSL, the more space you'll have between frets in that third octave, but that can only help so much.

That makes perfect sense. The open string note is the lowest a string can be. I'm overthinking it for sure. The solution then is to tune in DAA and add more frets to the upper neck. A larger dulcimer body with a longer neck and wider fretboard would help make the spaces. THANK YOU!

I wrote a blog post on the angling of our fretting fingers that elaborates on that subject a little more- you might find something helpful in it:
https://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.com/2012/07/lazy-fingers.html

Truthfully, I might be misunderstanding your request or your concept here. The bottom line though is that on any string, you cannot play notes lower than that particular string is tuned to... no matter how long the neck is or how many additional frets you put on.

Sorry....couldn't help myself....

Thanks for the responses, all. John, that "Uncle Eddie" is insanely cool. That's a great suggestion on the long neck banjo. I've reached out to John Knopf with these questions. Dusty, agreed and that is exactly what my Milford Blevins model has (in order to accommodate 8 strings). Strumelia, your suggestion of arching the fingers is excellent, and I will try to improve on that. Regarding your questions: 1) Yes, on both a longer and wider fretboard for finger space and tonal range 2) Yes, I'd like to play notes that dip below the "home" note of D on the melody string. I did try DAA tuning and I enjoyed the ability to hit those lower notes, but I was then limited on the higher octave. I'm looking for both sides of the spectrum.

My primary concert dulcimers are modified to be loud. Both my converted guitar/dulcimer, Milford B. model, and J. McAnulty Weissenborn are very resonant even without an amp. I've added drop A & D strings for deep bass and extra resonance. I use Fender heavy triangle picks and higher gauge strings as I tend to strum and pick aggressively. I've attached a few pics to help illustrate the set-ups.

Dulcimers_01a.jpg  •  153KB

Dulcimers_01b.jpg  •  178KB

Dulcimers_01c.jpg  •  128KB

One added thing I'd like to just check on-
you say you have trouble with bumping into other strings when you fret and slide with your "large hands", yet your dulcimer has a larger than usual fretboard already.
Are you fretting with the bony TIPS of your fingers, with your hand arched up over the strings, or are you fretting with the fatty PADS of your fingers, with your hand held more horizontally as though you are typing on a laptop?  Fretting with te very tips of the fingers can make all the difference in the world when it comes to getting clean sound and not bumping into other strings or muffling your own notes while cutting off resonating notes.

I'm a little confused here and i have questions. You say you like to play the melody mostly all on your melody string while occasionally plucking the middle string, yet you also say you like to play melody on the lower string. 
Are you simply wanting a longer and wider fretboard, and will continue to tune to DAd and play in the key of D?...are you just seeking extra space for your large fingers?
OR... are you wanting to play notes that dip below the 'home' note of D on your melody string, as in tuning to DAA for example?
From your question, I'm not really sure of your goal.

Another possibility would be a wider fretboard with more space in between strings.  Just a thought.

Sending a "long vsl" chart borrowed from Folkcraft...31 3/8 VSL. Is this what you envision? It would take some time to do the math on string gauge etc....To think of what that length looks like, picture a Pete Seger long neck banjo. All you have to do is remove the resonator and slap the remains on an hourglass body....voila!

This other fella on FOTMD may be able to help....looks like he builds some big honkin' dulcimores....

longvsl.png  •  447KB

john.png  •  564KB

This is a question regarding dulcimer build limitations. Is it possible to make an extended range dulcimer? I am envisioning a longer fretboard that would allow for several more frets on the lower end. This would allow the player to stay on the melody string for the low and high octave, without crossing over to the middle string, in DAD tuning.

I am a player with large hands, which makes it difficult to play the middle string without hitting other strings. So far, the Milford Blevins Dulcimer has the largest fretboard I’ve used. It is both wider and longer than a standard dulcimer. For me, that means my fat fingers have plenty of space to slide. I wish it were a tad longer so that I could get the best of DAA and DAD tuning, allowing me to walk down the fretboard on the melody string alone. I play melody exclusively on the first D string, with an occasional pluck of the open A middle string. The middle and lower strings I use for droning rhythms, or to play bass melody.

Thank you for any responses.

Mike