Thanks for that Dusty.

Strumelia, the black lyre in the picture a few posts back is the Nordic Lyre and on looking at it it does have similarities to a crwth .... attached is a picture of the crwth.

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@Hobbyhorse, those look like quite elegant instruments you are making. Nice job!

Thanks all for your comments.

I used the Rutger uni plans and did enlarge them a little to accommodate the alto tuning that I settled on. The nylgut strings are ok for the d and a but do not have enough tension on the G to get a clear note, however overall it did make the sounds I was hoping for. Ultimately I will have to get a gut set for it.

Irene the plans for the hurdy gurdy came from Graeme McCormack of Tasmania who runs a web site called Antiquated Strings. They were free, which was nice but there were some inconsistencies in the dimensioning which kept me on my toes. I am a builder of instruments ( I am a retired joiner who now has time) rather than a player but I can feel my way around the ones I have built .... I do not pretend to be proficient. The hurdy gurdy did take me 6 months to build. The rebec was just completed today and is still something of a mystery .... given a little more time and I will probably have a better understanding of the fingerboard.

Strumelia, yes the Crwth is bowed but it traditionally has a flat bridge on it which makes for some mournful sounds at times. There are 4 strings over the fingerboard and two that run free and are played as in a lyre. My hands are not really as flexible as they need to be for this one. The Rebec scale length 13 1/8 and the overall is 22 inches. I do have some timber put aside for a tenor rebec next year.

Ken, the Nordic Lyre is also one of Michael Kings, as also was the Crwth. I found him to be a very good communicator who seemed interested in what I was doing, which I thought was a bit special.

Çhristmas wishes to all of you.

Hobbyhorse -- your Lyre looks really nice, as do your othere builds.  I build a few lyres myself.  My favorite small lyre is the Cologne pattern from Michael King in England, and my mist recent is an Oberflacht pattern, also his, with kalrose carving on the soundboard.   If you search the Photo section on "Lyre" you'll see pix of mine.

I've followed Paul Butler at Rutgers for many years. He has done some amazing builds!!  

Hobbyhorse, that rebec looks wonderful!  What is the scale length you settled on?  Did you make a 'tenor' sized one?

You are very talented.  I like the looks of your crwth as well.  Do you bow the crwth?

Hobbyhorse....your builds pictured here are just marvelous.  I know your N.Z. wood and the history of that swamp Kauri wood.  But your building such fabulous musical instruments is a marvelous thing.   Do you play the rubic and the hurdygurdy?   I've always wanted to make a hurdygurdy....wayyyyyyyyyyy too many parts.....Did you do that hurdy gurdy with plans from somewhere?   aloha, irene

@hobbyhorse How does the rebec sound?  The hurdy-gurdy?  Your builds look good. 

Herewith my Rebec. 

The body is from 10,000 year old New Zealand swamp kauri, the soudboard is recycled kauri and probably 100 years old and the finger board is from matai, again a New Zealand timber. The rebec is finished with lacquer and the finger board is oiled. I have used nylgut strings on it at this stage as this is what I have in my workshop and I really wanted to hear what it sounds like. It is  strung  as an alto: G d a

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Strumelia, this is something of thread dredge.

I guess I should apologise for not being active on the site but I have been having just too much fun in the workshop. I have now completed two mountain dulcimers a hurdy gurdy, a crwth, a nordic lyre, two bowed psalteries plus several ukuleles and flutes and am now turning my attention to a rebec, which is how I stumbled across this thread.

I have the plans from Rutgers University and am mulling over whether to build the soprano or the tenor rebec and having built two tenor ukes I do prefer the more mellow tones. Are you still playing your rebec and with your experience do you have a preference for either the soprano or tenor models? The Rutgers one is a soprano and I would have to scale up the plans to get the extra scale length required but this is no real problem.

Rhys

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The home page is http://home.comcast.net/~meisterdru/trouvere/index_trouvere.htm

Hi I thought you might be interested in this website that I just happened to find - fuel for your/our medieval strings interests. Although we probably don't "need" any more fuel!

http://home.comcast.net/~meisterdru/trouvere/bowed%20instruments.htm

Thanks for those latest rebec-bits!

I can relate to all your points! Keep in mind that the bridge sholulkd be positioned to give you approx a 12" scale length- this will help p[revent breaking gut strings as well. It's a similar scale to a fiddle. I suggest cello rosin, to be a bit grippier.

Yay!

Hi

It arrived! Just as described. It's smaller than I expected! I have no rosin yet, so haven't' done more than plucked it. I'll pick some up next time I'm in "the big city". And I'll probably get the spare strings you recommend. No hurry - our garden planting is behind as are a bunch of other projects, but on the other hand, so looking forward to trying it out!! And sounding instantly medieval! haha. And THEN to find some music scores! I really haven't figured out the "secret" to finding time for everything. I'm never going to be a morning person, so that one's out! THANKS again for all the advice and ideas so far ... and those to come!

Yay! I'm thrilled for you!

You should order several replacement gut strings in advance from the fellow I mentioned.

They are expensive, but some are actually twice the length you need, so may wind up giving you two string replacements if you are stingy when winding the peg.

You will be skipping the violin low G string. Order the equivalent of the gut violin e, a, and d strings. Order an extra e because that's the one at highest tension that will more likley break. Order the medium thickness type for each string (he gives choices of light, medium, etc.) Be SURE to check out his offerings in his SALE area- I saved good money that way! His gut strings are higher quality and won't break as easily as the rougher gut strings that come on it.

You will need to rosin the bow quite a bit at first.

If it's hard to hold, try a piece of that rubbery shelf liner stuff- on the part of your body you hold it against.

I strongly advise not tuning it all the way up to fiddle standard, at least for the first week. I keep mine tuned (low to high): CGd instead of DAe. I just read the music and pretend i am tuned higher. After a while you may get good at transposing tunes to better places on your rebec. Try out centering a tune so that the tonic note falls on an open string...that helps me often. i play alone so I don't have to worry so much about what key im in.

Be sure to start with a very very simple tune.

Well, I did it!

I ordered the blemished one,(that you mentioned in your last reply) after Middle-East Mnfg sent me two photos of the blemishes: one a scratch where the bridge had scaped the top a little, and the other - a slight dent on the outside of the bottom bowl. They classify the blemish as -2 which means it doesn't affect the sound quality of the instrument, so here's hoping!

Thanks again for all your advice!

On to the next learning curve while I'm still on several others at the same time. Fun though.

Eileen, there is a Roosebeck soprano rebec just listed on Ebay which has a reduced price due to some cosmetic 'blemish':

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Roosebeck-23-3-String-Rebec-27-Bow-Hard-Cas...

There is also a new soprano unblemished one listed from the same folks i bought mine:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-UNIQUE-EMS-DESIGN-3-STRING-REBEC-GADULK...

Maybe you could contact the seller and ask to see a photo and description of the blemish, I wouldn't think that was an unreasonable request for an item which costs several hundred dollars. It cold be just a couple of scuff marks, which to me wouldn't matter and the discount could cover your shipping mostly. If it's a crack, or glue failure etc, i would pass on it. I would want to know exactly what and how significant the 'blemish' was before buying. Note that you can also make an offer on that auction- so you could maybe offer $260 or $270 and they might go for it.

Eileen, I got a nice hand-picked selection of gut strings from:

http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/

The thing is, I spent a lot of time researching not only various sorurces for gut strings, but also reserached the exact gauges I would likely need to tune to various notes on my soprano rebec, with its particular scale. When you have ordered and are ready, I can put together a few suggestions of spare strings for you to order. I would say that unless you keep your tuning way lower, you have a good chance of breaking at least your high string when you first tune up your rebec- the gut strings that come on it are not great quality.

Also, the bridge feet are not very well fitted to the top of the instrument- some visible gaps there. I used a very fine sandpaper to gently sand the feet so they conformed better to the instrument top curve....but a real violin luthier would do a much better job than I could. Still, it was an improvement. Aside from those details, I found the rebec pretty sturdy and well made, and has a pleasing sound and feel, though not that loud of course due to the gut strings and no soundpost.

Yes, that's the one. It adds up to $580 (Cdn) ! and the EMS from the UK is $405 + $100 shipping, which adds to $505 (Cdn). And yes, I converted from B. pounds.

So I'll try contacting AAA and see what they say. Often ebay and amazon businesses just give over the shipping to another company and it's "out of their control". But, as you say, worth a try. Unfortunately, I'm close as the crow flies, but I'm on an island off an island, and so the distance by ferries in $$ is hefty. Lucky crows!

Strange that shipping is less (although still pretty darn expensive) from the UK than the from US or even within Canada. It cost way more to ship a recorder across Canada than to the UK. Grrrr!

And yes, still interested in where you got gut strings.

THANKS again

Eileen, this is the one i would recommend buying:

http://www.amazon.com/Rebec-Rosewood-Trim-Hard-Case/dp/B000E2B3NW/r...

But likely it's what you are describing above with high shipping to Canada. Is there a way for you to have it shipped to a friend in the US who is within driving distance of you? Maybe even have it shipped to a business and give them a $30 tip for holding it there for you to come pick up? (then you would have to know how to deal with customs when you return over the border)

Perhaps you could send the seller a message and ask to have the shipping reduced to $100- no harm in asking! They may actually be unaware of how high it is to Canada.

Have you calculated what the shipping would be directly to you if you ordered from EMS in the UK? It might be less!

I think I'm convinced to get the soprano.

I found 2 on amazon (from AAA). They had a nice price reduction, but the shipping and handling, even though advertised as free (within the USA) is $200 !! to Canada. Wow - and just a short distance beyond the border too, not that it matters apparently! This may prove quite the challenge to find one!

I just came across this maker when looking for ebay and amazon rebecs that weren't in the uk. (I also saw one made by Paul Butler, but it had sold already!) Have you heard of this maker> http://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/102658591/custom-built-rebec-with-bow?ref=shop_home_active_2&ga_search_query=rebec

Thanks and look forward to the next reply. I'm amazed that you take the time to reply so quickly and greatly appreciate it.

By the way, I didn't mean tune down to the key of C; it was just shorthand to tune down so the lowest open string is C.

Eileen, I am not able to fully respond right now, but a couple quick responses, more later:

So you have basically tuned the soprano rebec to what the alto normally is?

So, if I went with the alto rebec, it would be tuned Cgd and it would be basically the same range as the C recorders (give or take an octave) i.e. lowest note C. So with either the soprano or alto rebec I could follow any of the ensemble lines

But it doesn't the matter what key the group is playing in, does it? as long as one learns all the notes, including sharps and flats on the rebec? I THINK I'm beginning to get it!

I too love that medieval sound, and I've learned to LOVE my pear-wood (Huber) soprano recorder ( I never thought I would like the soprano), so maybe you've convinced me to just go with the soprano and tune it down to C.

And yes, let me know where to get the better gut strings. I shall re-start my looking on ebay and amazon. Do you recommend any particular amazon seller or source or are they all the same?

Here are two clips I really like:

This is so helpful. Thanks!

I did suspect that the EMS was the same one but wasn't' sure. It sure looked the same.

So you have basically tuned the soprano rebec to what the alto normally is?

So, if I went with the alto rebec, it would be tuned Cgd and it would be basically the same range as the C recorders (give or take an octave) i.e. lowest note C. So with either the soprano or alto rebec I could follow any of the ensemble lines (soprano, alt, or tenor - I guess not the bass) without having to jump around playing up or down too much. (?)

But it doesn't the matter what key the group is playing in, does it? as long as one learns all the notes, including sharps and flats on the rebec? I THINK I'm beginning to get it!

I hadn't realized that one could tune them to something other than what Paul Butler had explained: i.e. the soprano to the top 3 violin strings, the alto to the bottom 3, etc.

I too love that medieval sound, and I've learned to LOVE my pear-wood (Huber) soprano recorder ( I never thought I would like the soprano), so maybe you've convinced me to just go with the soprano and tune it down to C.

And yes, let me know where to get the better gut strings. I shall re-start my looking on ebay and amazon. Do you recommend any particular amazon seller or source or are they all the same?

Thank so much again!

Here are two clips I really like:

Plus this one by the same musician (and this is the soprano, but tuned lower I now discovered, reading all the comments!)

I have to admit that i was actually seeking the high nasally medieval "squeaky" sound you describe- similar to the sound of a medieval shawm. that's why I got the soprano Pakistani Roosebeck one from ebay. Did you know that EMS sells those pakastani ones as well? In fact, that may be the very ones you are looking at, the Alto version on EMS....made in Pakistan Roosebeck brand actually. You can get the SAME soprano one on Amazon or Ebay directly from U.S. dealers much much cheaper than from EMS. EMS also carries rebecs made by other luthiers that are likely better quality but way more expensive.

Did you listen to the youtube clips by that fellow who bought both the Roosebeck soprano and the low Tenor rebecs?- he has wonderful examples of playing both on youtube. That's why i ordered the soprano- because I WANTED that high piercing nasal tone like in his clips. You may not like that, everyone is different! I can certainly understand why you might want a mellower tone as in the alto.

The gut strings that come on the Pakistan/Roosebeck ones (whether bought from Amazon, Ebay, or EMS) are not quality gut strings, and my high string broke (twice) right off the bat when I tried to tune it to high E. I suspect nobody actually tunes them up to high e mostly. I wound up tuning DOWN 1 step and ordering better gut strings from a string maker in the US- I can give you suggestions if you like later. His strings seem way sturdier and smoother. Now I am tuned Cgd (bass to high) rather than DAe, to avoid the high tension and gut breakage. I can do that of course because I'm playing just by myself so it doesn't matter what key I'm actually playing it. I keep in mind my lowest note possible is that low C.

The gut strings means it's a fairly quiet instrument compared to what we are used to in a steel-strung violin.

I am playing it propped on my legs, like a tiny 'cello, and with an underhand bow grip...I find this way easier than contorting my wrist to wrap around the neck and play it like a violin. Also i had a very hard time keeping it from sliding around too much due to the bowl back, when trying to play against my arm like a low positioned fiddle.

Just a quick update here. I noticed that the Spanish Rabel link above is not longer valid. If you do a Google search on 'rabel' there are lots of sites with relevant information

Thanks for the reply! I was thinking of EMS (England) but the shipping is quite high too. I saw the Pakistan-made ones on ebay, and like you were, am a little wary of the quality. And yes I know about the tenor size, but that one is the same as the top strings of a viola, and viola music is written in alto clef - which I'm not up to learning. Keeping in mind treble and bass clef plus fingerings for C and F recorders AND learning tab for dulcimer is keeping my brain "exercised" enough these days. I'm not really good enough playing by ear to play along with the recorders. I'm pretty attached to written scores, unfortunately. So I think I would like to stick with either soprano or alto for now if I can find somewhere to buy a decent one for a reasonable price AND can find music that will work. Are you happy with the tone of your soprano - not too "squeaky" high?

Where are you thinking of buying your rebec from?

You know there is also a tenor size rebec made.

Are you able to pick out tunes by ear rather than having to read from paper? That might make it easier if you are able to. Then you could adapt better to what the recorder is doing. The main thing is to find the right key to play together.

Hi I've been considering getting a rebec for a number of months now, so really glad to have found this thread. Could anyone tell me which (the soprano or the alto) would likely be easier to learn &

accompany a recorder ensemble for medieval and renaissance music? I like the lower tone of an alto, but looking at the range, I'm wondering if it would be easier to just go with a soprano? By "easier to learn" I'm thinking partly of being able to read from recorder SATB scores, as I sure have not found any written scores for rebec! I do know that the soprano is the top 3 strings of a violin, and the alto is the bottom 3. I haven't played any string instrument before (other than starting my dulcimer), so I'm starting from scratch. If we found violin music to accompany our recorders, would having just the 3 strings of the rebec make it too difficult to work with? Anyway, any and all ideas and advice would be wonderfully appreciated!

That's wonderful news Lisa. Enjoy the rebec which it seems you are doing already.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Woo-hooooo! Ok...My little soprano rebec arrived today and I love it !

I had some nagging worries about whether it would be even playable, considering it was made in Pakistan and I bought it from a big Ebay re-seller. But it arrived exactly as advertised, in a sturdy overbuilt hard latched case and seems halfway decently made for an entry-level rebec. Three gut strings, and a bow included.

Happily for me, rebecs are tuned in 5ths, just like violins, mandolins, cellos. And since I used to play the cello in middle school and high school for 6 years, this was not totally alien territory for me...though the last time I touched a cello was about FORTY TWO years ago. =8-o

At first I tried holding it in my elbow crook as is suggested for rebecs, but that was incredibly awkward with the bowlback. It just seemed sooo much like a tiny newborn cello to me that I simply propped it between my knees and tried playing it the same way as cellos and bowed dulcimers. Yay!- that felt immediately and totally right to me somehow, with an underhand bow grip. It has a dainty VSL scale length of 12 1/2"....which is 1/2" shorter than Brian's fiddle.

Fooling around on it, I was thrilled to find some of my creaky cello skills still not forgotten, and I somehow knew how to play a few rudimentary melody patterns on it from the start. This was very very different than my jouhikko experience, which has been a very steep learning curve.

I think i am going to take to this little rebec very well! My goal is to play some simple old folk and medieval/renaissance tunes on it.

It feels really, really good to have a bowed instrument again, especially one that I understand and seem to have a little head start on already!

Wheee!

Well, I sold one of my two jouhikkos (to a fellow FOTMD member who was anxious to try one), and I used the money to order an entry-level rebec to try out. I've been wishing I could try out a rebec for years now. I hope the one coming is at least decently playable- we shall see in a few days when it arrives!

I hope to play some medieval and renaissance tunes on it, and perhaps some old hymns or shape-note melodies. I have not figured out how I will hold it yet- folks can variously play it under the chin like a violin, or against the shoulder, chest, or crook of the arm like a fiddler, or even in mini-cello position also like a bowed dulcimer.

Fun!