Forum Activity for @royb

Ionian tuning question

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks Dusty. After years of guitar playing I can hear a dissonant chord.

Ionian tuning question

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I'm not sure what Force and d'Ossché intend with that comment, but both CGG (ionian) or CGc (mixolydian) tunings give us "partial" chords with the open strings.  Both have the root (do) and the fifth (sol) but not the third (mi).

In short, strumming your open CGG strings should sound just fine.

updated by @dusty: 07/27/22 12:23:42PM

mountain dulcimer at Newport Folk Festival 2022

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

There was a really nice piece by Lindsay Zoladz in the NY Times on Joni's appearance at Newport, celebrating the bravery of an aging woman who recently suffered an aneurism and had to re-learn how to walk re-interpreting her music with a voice a couple of octaves below the voice that made her famous.

Ionian tuning question

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I've been reading In Search of the Wild Dulcimer, and under the tuning mode section it says a disadvantage of Ionian is the lack of an open strum. Is that right? I know that do is on the third fret, but I thought CGG as open tuning sounded ok? Thanks

updated by @royb: 07/31/22 11:10:22AM

mountain dulcimer at Newport Folk Festival 2022

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Oh, that last line that Joni sang out in the video- "Oh you're a mean old daddy but you're outa sight"....  so wonderful to see that, it made me cry. 

String action is too high?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Better to take material off the bottom of a nut or bridge to reduce height.  Deep notches can "run into each other on the top"...  Search on here on the phrase "nickel and dime" and you'll find descriptions on reducing string height to a good level.

String action is too high?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks (again) Skip.  I was able to deepen the nut notches, and the action is a bit lower on that end.  Tried to do the same on the bridge end, but there isn't much area to work with.  Splitting the difference, as you describe, seems to be the way to go, here.

mountain dulcimer at Newport Folk Festival 2022

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I agree, Dusty, Brandi did an amazing job of singing Carey. She sounded just like Joni!

mountain dulcimer at Newport Folk Festival 2022

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks, @dusty-turtle.  I saw the clips you saw, it seems.  Pretty cool.

String action is too high?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Changing strings or tuning isn't going to do much. The problem is the extra height causes the tension for the length to be too much. What may help is to lower the nut [or deepen the notch a bit], make sure the string is touching the bridge as far back as possible and kind of split the difference between sharp/flat [open/affected fret]. It should be ok to be on the slightly sharp side rather than the flat side as flat is annoying and more obvious. If it's less than about 10 cents [usually in the green on the tuner] it is probably acceptable to most folks.

String action is too high?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Here's a photo showing the string height.

String action is too high?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Now that I'm sort of getting used to the wooden tuning pegs, I've started to notice that the melody string on my 1969 hand built dulcimer is always sharp when I use the noter (28.5" VSL, staple frets only under the melody string).  I've tried easing up on the noter pressure, which helps a bit.  If I tune the string down just a touch (slightly flat) it sounds better anywhere up the fretboard but when played open.  Problem is the instrument seems to have been built with a high sitting bridge (which I assume is causing the string to go sharp when pressed at the fret). The bridge of course cannot be lowered except to cut down the end cap holding the bridge (which I wouldn't do).  The bridge itself is about as low on the end cap as it can go, sticking up just slightly.  The nut placement is ok - if the bridge were at that level, there wouldn't be a problem.  The action, from the top of fret to string, is - first fret 1/16, middle 1/8, last fret 3/16 (all approximate).

Any ideas?  Go heavier or lighter on string gauge?  Different tuning (CGG at the moment)?  Thanks

mountain dulcimer at Newport Folk Festival 2022

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I don't think so, Robin.  I remember "A Case of You" and "Both Sides Now" and some instrumental Joni played on an electric guitar.  I don't think there was a dulcimer in any of that.

worldwide Play Music on the Porch Day

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@ken-hulme You can always sing or play spoons if no luthier is to be found.  

mountain dulcimer at Newport Folk Festival 2022

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@dusty-turtle Was there more mountain dulcimer visible in the video you saw (versus the one I posted below)? 

mountain dulcimer at Newport Folk Festival 2022

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I saw another video of this set a day or two ago.  Brandi Carlisle does an amazing job singing Joni's songs.  I hope Joni understands the profound love so many of us have for her music.

worldwide Play Music on the Porch Day

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I'll be playing on Orkney, provided I can find a luthier I know who lives there.  Gonna be hard to fit even my travel dulcimer into my luggage for a 4 week trip to the UK...

International Appalachian Dulcimer Day

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I just found your piece and absolutely love it.  Thank you for such beautiful work!  

worldwide Play Music on the Porch Day

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Mark & I have been practicing our tune for PMOTPD.  Hope y'all are planning to participate!

mountain dulcimer at Newport Folk Festival 2022

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

You'll hear mountain dulcimer long before you'll see it and, no, Joni Mitchell isn't playing it (though she was the big surprise guest at Newport).  

One of the Hanseroth twins (Brandi Carlisle group) opens Carey with mountain dulcimer and you see a quick look at him on dulcimer later in the video. 

Hearts of the Dulcimer podcast in 2022

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hearts of the Dulcimer Podcast - Episode 57
New York, New York

https://dulcimuse.com/podcast

We spoke with people born and raised in New York City in the 1950s and 60s who have become well-known dulcimer players. With Joellen Lapidus, Holly Tannen, Doug Berch, and Rob Brereton.

You can listen to all of the  Hearts of the Dulcimer Podcast  episodes directly on our website: https://dulcimuse.com/podcast  or anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Here's the resource page for this episode: https://dulcimuse.com/podcast/resource/057.html

Thanks for listening!

Patricia Delich & Wayne Jiang

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Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

Steven there's no need at all to understand modes at this point in time. Just sayin'!    lolol

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Steven:

LOL I started the same way, with only a sparse, barely remembered, 3rd grade understanding of music,,,,,,,, at 60 or so! It's been an interesting, and fun, trip so far. I've met, or talked, to a lot of really helpful, knowledgeable, folks along the way.

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Steve -- the short answer is that Modes are scales - do, re, me fa, sol, la, ti , and do again is the Ionian Mode, which guitars etc call the Major.   Other scales (Modes) have other sequences of notes.  It's music theory.  Don't worry.

Diatonic means that the fretboard does not have all of the half steps that chromatic fretboard does -- which is why there are wide spaces between some frets and narrow spaces between other frets.  On a chromatic fretboard those wide spaces would have another fret in the middle.

updated by @ken-hulme: 07/24/22 06:15:59PM

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Skip:  I've never had a banjo lesson so, with the exception of a few chapters of "Banjo for Dummies", I'm self-taught.  Music theory is a complete mystery to me so anything beyond "Put your finger here and pick this string" is over my head.

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@ Steven

Just look at modes as being the names of a re-ordered scale. CDEFGABC to DEFGABCD is a diatonic [8 note] scale changing modes, all the same notes, different order.

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Ken:  No offense was intended.  My head exploding comment was a reflection on ME not you.  I found that the whole diatonic/myxalodian/ionian concept was difficult (at least for me) to take in.  Thanks for your previous words of encouragement and thank you for your offer of further instruction.  

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It really will be pretty easy to for you to learn the basics, you have 11 years of music background to help. Many folks start with with with none.

Remember back when you started with the banjo. You probably started with a childs song and picked it out one note at a time on one string. With the dulcimer that's the standard, normal way for n/d and finger dancing. You pick out a melody on the melody string, one note at a time, with no concern for any of the other strings [the're just drones to fill out the sound]. Then you do the same thing but strum across all of the things at the same time as you fret the note. When you've gotten to this point you've caught up with 50% or more of MD players. 

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At the in-person dulcimer gathering I host each month I begin with a free beginner's lesson.  Before I mention tunings or modes or extra frets or anything, I put a dulcimer on the newbies lap, have them strum across the strings in a slow and steady rhythm, and then ask them to follow my left hand as I play some basic melodies on the melody string.  Within 5 minutes they are playing music. Hot Cross Buns.  Mary Had a Little Lamb.  Bile Dem Cabbage Down.  Go Tell Aunt Rhody.  Only after they experience the joy of playing a few songs do I teach the parts of the dulcimer, how to hold the instrument, the reasons for different tunings, and so forth.

A lot of us want to understand what we are doing musically, but sometimes we forget to just put the instrument on our lap and play something. If it sounds good, do it again. If it doesn't, try something else until you find something that does sound good.  Getting started can be as simple as that.

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Steven......I've read some of these posts and I'll share what Kerry Coates told me before she passed on (Such a gracious soul and sorely missed).   She built my first dulcimer years ago and told me to get Larkin Bryant's book which I did.  (Sadly, Larkin has gone on too and another great loss).  Anyway, after working with that book and ending up in a bit of a dither Kerry said, "Look, just play the darn thing".  So I tuned it up to DAA and made all sorts of noise.

She was exactly right!  After a week or two you'll get the hang of it and like she said, "tunes will come to you and you won't feel all flustered."

Now books, and there are tons of them, can help you learn all sorts of stuff.  Some will make you crazy at first but sooner or later you'll find one or parts of many that will ring your bell and your journey is off and running. 

I remember all the silly stuff I did when I first took a stab at playing this thing.  I'd buy new strings, (OK, I broke few trying to figure out the difference between G and g; DAA, DAD, CGG and all that.........then I figured well it must be the instrument or the pick or the noter, maybe the tuner; all that sort of stuff.  Don't fall into that that trap if you can help it.  (I'll bet I'm not the only one who has done that and I believe that Dulcimer Acquisition Disease may be rooted here).  I don't know much about modes.  (The only mode I care about at this point is "a la mode", preferably apple and vanilla.)

The truth of the matter is that playing a dulcimer is for enjoyment.  I'll never be a great player like those I see on youtube or other video platforms, but it's fun and the bottom line for me is........."who cares what folks think."  One you reach that level of comfort, you can sing along and you might be surprised at how small or large your audience will be.........in my case it's just the old hound dog......the cats scram and flee to the great outdoors.  (My wife just puts on headphones and listen to whatever).

Now ya'll don't get me wrong, what I'm saying is this, "Just go slow and as one feller out here in the woods one remarked, "a good outhouse ain't built in a day".

Don't get discouraged...just have fun!!  And by the way........welcome to this great group, "wheez glad yer here"!!!

BTW.....

For those who have asked, that old hound is still getting over the nasty Rattlesnake bite and the University of Florida Vet Hospital is pleased that I've paid their light bill for the month.  The good news is that will end in another few weeks.

Best instruction material?

Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

The lap dulcimer is a very simple musical instrument, but it is a musical instrument. I believe that there are a few people who do lack the requisite skills.

If you can't tell Go Tell Aunt Rhodie from Frere Jaques you will have challenges. Some sense of melody is required.

There are also folks with no real sense of rhythm - folks who will bring a drum to a jam session and just bang on it, missing the beat. Dulcimer tunes include a wide variety of note lengths (quarter, half, eighth, etc.) In our local group the comment, "Well, at least we all finished at the same time," is sometimes good for a laugh.

As a dulcimer player, I am a beginner, but I have been attending our local dulcimer group sessions for several years, sometimes playing ukulele or U-Bass. I've been watching how others learn and how and why others are challenged.

If you didn't have trouble in primary school music, and/or can comfortably sing along with hymns or patriotic songs at gatherings you should be OK.

Keep your initial sessions short. Few beginners can really stand a full-hour lesson. If you find yourself saying "I've got to get this right," you're pushing too hard. Learning curves are only steep if you try going too fast.

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Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

I started with Ritchies Dulcimer Book and would  recommend it to any beginner. 

In my opinion her introduction to Tunings is a good thing behause sticking to one Tuning  will limiting your Musical Repertoire.

For DAA tabs I would recommend Gamses Best Dulcimer Method yet. It‘s for CGG-Tuning, which is DAA just for C.

One caveat though: These are Books for Noter/drone /fingerdancing, so not a big help for Chord playing

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Steven, you said you were interested in a basic strumming style, fretting only the melody string. That would be either noter style playing, or fingerdancing style where you fret with the fingers on the melody string only.

You might find some helpful instruction, over 30 beginner tabs, and videos in my online free blog for beginner noter players:
https://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.com/search/label/strumming
(Be sure to browse the posts sorted by date (earliest posts first) and/or by subject matter, using the right hand column indexes found on every page.)

I find KenH's article very simple to follow, until it gets to explaining modes. Modes are always a challenge for new players to learn about. But like many FOTMD members, you don't really have to understand modes to enjoy playing in noter style. It's fun to learn about modes later on, and get those wonderful 'light bulb moments' as you change tunings.
I've written a very simplified "modes aren't so scary after all" method of learning about the basic modes in my blog, but I suggest you delve into that later on, after you are comfortable with playing a few simple first tunes. And it doesn't get any simpler than the tune for Hot Cross Buns.
For now, just know that tuning to DAA to begin with will make it easier if you are wanting to fret notes only on the melody string.

updated by @strumelia: 07/24/22 09:45:20AM

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Stephen -- I am chagrined to hear that my beginner booklet has you stopping reading for fear that your head would  explode!!!  If you have ANY questions about anything I've written there, please write (through PM here or email) and tell me, and I will do my best to re-explain whatever it is that's troubling you.  

As an aside -- the dulcimer IS a very simple instrument to learn!! .   

1.  There are 3 courses of strings -- bass (farthest from you), melody (closest to you) and middle drone (in the middle naturally). Each course usually has one string each, but sometimes they have two strings very close together which are treated as if they are a single string.  

2.  You make music by pressing down the melody course at various frets up and down the fretboard, while strumming across all of the courses.  

FWIW, I'm 74, and spent over 35 years of my working career as a science and technical writer explaining in detail how to use many more complicated devices for people with little or no experience in using them.

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Thanks everyone for your input.  As an aside...  I was led to believe the dulcimer is a very simple instrument.  However, I started reading Ken Hulme's "I just got a dulcimer. Now what?" article and had to stop for fear my head would explode.  Looks like I've got a steep learning curve ahead.  But, with support from folks like you guys (and gals), I'm sure I'll manage.  Thanks again!

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John's suggestion looks good also. I don't have that book, but have met Anne and know that she does a good job of teaching in person. It is worth checking out as well.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

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Wally has provided some good suggestions which you won't pick up in books. I'm 75 and pretty much self taught although I started in playing in 1974 when I made my first dulcimer. Over the last 20 years I've attended lots of festivals and workshops and accumulated lots of tab. These days I'm mostly focusing on playing single melody string either using a noter or my index finger. I can play chord/melody style but really like the sound of drones. For fretting only the melody string, I suggest Maddie's two books; Teach Yourself Dulcimer and The Wonderful World of DAA. If can purchase the books along with the audio/video downloads, I think that would be ideal for you. Can listen to audio or watch the videos whenever you want. I've found that with growing older that tab gets harder to see. I have to write out larger numbers on most of the tab I have.

We have a group that meets on Tuesday night on Zoom that plays mostly in DAA. I know it would be a little advanced for a beginner, but you are welcome to watch us play and ask questions. We meet at 8:30 p.m. Eastern time, so it would be at 5:30 p.m. Pacific time. If you are interested, let me know, and I will send the information on how to join the meeting.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

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Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

I like the dulcimer instruction book by Anne Lough, which came out in 2011: "Welcome to the Mountain Dulcimer, Instruction and songs for beginners", Although she uses a noter, you can use your fingers if you wish.  Her songs are mostly familiar to dulcimer people. She covers three different modes and also includes  chord charts. It comes with an accompanying CD.  

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There are a lot of "details" which are easily skipped over when learning on your own. Many of these have to do with getting comfortable. Many of them are treated trivially in books and videos and easily missed.

For me, and many others, chair height is an issue. I'm short, and modern chairs are made too high to be good. I use a 2 inch foam foot block to raise my knees so the dulcimer doesn't slide away. That beats toting a 1950s vintage chair which does fit me. Some folks use straps, mats, etc. to reduce slipping, but proper height  and angle can provide a serious advantage.

Almost everyone uses a chair without arms. When a gathering is being set up, this is usually a discussion topic.

Where are you going to put your book while playing? Traditional music stands are great if you are playing most orchestral instruments, but put the music too high if you are looking at both the paper and your frets. You probably want a table about 25 (not 30) inches high.

Since you will not be learning these things in a group, when you watch videos, study how the performers set up.

There is no one right way for everyone. 

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Being old (72), I'm old school and an instruction book probably suits me best.  Dulcimer groups are pretty much out of the question.  When I mention the dulcimer around here, people invariably reply, "the What?".  I'm a 24/7 caregiver for my wife so instruction and practice opportunities are whenever I can find a bit of free time.  So, I have to learn at a very inconsistent pace.  I noticed quite a few dulcimer books available on-line so I decided to ask your sage advice on which to select.  I'm thinking a basic strumming style, fretting only the melody string (I'm a simple guy), is what I'm looking at.  Again, thank you for your kind assistance.