Forum Activity for @barnjam

Extended Range Dulcimer

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@strumelia Thanks for that tip. I can see how the noter would fit more easily between close frets. I like the speed and tactile feel I get from my bare fingers.

So I tried playing Sal’s Got Mud on the A string, and it works well on the Milford Blevins 8-String because it has a VSL of 28.25”. There is plenty of room from left to right.

Here’s my next dilemma. I don’t like the tonal quality of the A string, played in the key of D, as much as I like the D played in D. My new question is about intonation. Have you found that mountain dulcimers sound better in DAD than DAA?

I’ve tried many string configurations and gauges. I even had custom small gauge wound strings custom made (.11 and .13). They work best on an electric guitar or dulcimer. Bassist Garry Goodman hand winds these specialty strings.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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@barnjam ... just from my personal viewpoint-  when playing oldtime tunes up high in the second octave solely on the melody string,  -because i play with a noter  I do not have the problem of my fingertips sliding quickly between frets that are very close together.  Just putting that little bug in your ear!  

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I refreshed my memory on playing melody jn DAA, and the results are as follows. I truly enjoy the rich tonal quality of playing on the lower octave. The upper octave however is limited (as mentioned by someone).

Example: Sal’s Got Mud Between Her Toes

DAD tuning is ideal for parts A & B. I start on the low octave and play into the higher octave. Part C is where I prefer DAA tuning, because I quickly run out of frets/notes on the lower octave. I can play it on the middle A string, but that’s not as seamless as walking down the fretboard to finish the Part C.

If the dulcimer was a bit larger, diatonic, and had some extra frets on the upper register….would I be able to play all three parts on the melody string? I’m going to do some test recordings and share the results.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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That's a great write up!

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Skip, in his original post he said "I wish it were a tad longer so that I could get the best of DAA and DAD tuning, allowing me to walk down the fretboard on the melody string alone." Which i assume means that he wants notes below A to be available on the melody string.

@Barnjam you might consider trying to tune your instrument D3A3D3, (you will need to put a bass string where you would normally put a melody string) such that the melody string is the same pitch as the bass string, which would allow you to have a range of D3 to D5 on the melody string, assuming 2 octaves of frets. This would allow you to play "melodies on the bass string" using the first octave of frets on the melody string, and the second octave of frets will correspond to the notes you would normally get on the melody string. It may be the easiest solution, if you like the feel of it, and that gives you the notes you want.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Thanks for moving this to the proper category. Interestingly, Richard Ash at Folkcraft has a great write up on the subject of hands, fingers, and VSLs.

https://folkcraft.com/pages/how-to-choose-the-right-scale-length-for-your-new-dulcimer

Extended Range Dulcimer

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As an example; Standard, 28.5" VSL McSpadden tuned DAA will do exactly what you just described. Any dulcimer with the same fret layout will also meet that criteria. The caveat is the frets are really close together at the high notes.

DAA is a 155 tuning so just about any 155 tuning [w/correct strings] would work. Other modal tunings may or may not result in 2 full octaves.

DAd [158] may also work since the McSpadden has the 6.5 and 13.5 frets.

updated by @skip: 10/07/25 05:27:47PM

Extended Range Dulcimer

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It means you asked a good question that hits on interesting ideas. :)

It may be helpful to know: what exactly is the range of notes that you would like to have access to on your melody string? 

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I never expected my question to make the rounds, but a lot of great information and ideas are being shared. John Knopf to had some great ideas as well. One thought is to make the fretboard longer, but tune the melody string to something other than D. I’m thinking A (like in DAA tuning). From that point you play it like it’s tuned in D, leaving the lower frets available. Hopefully I got that all right.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I agree completely. For me personally, I think a fretboard should be at least as wide as my pointer, middle, and ring finger's combined width. Anything less and I don't have enough room for chording all three strings across the same fret. Of course that is because I play chording style, and isn't necessarily useful to BarnJam.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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In the past when I built a similar dulcimer I found two serious constraints. One is that the fret placement has to be perfect because even the tiniest most subtle imprecision makes a huge difference. The other is that the frets become impossibly close together. Even on a 34" dulcimer, the 19-21 frets will only be about 1/4 of an inch apart. For someone like me who uses jumbo fretwire, the frets crowns would need to overlap. It would requireusing small fretwire and being very very precise with your fingertips.
But as you said, it is possible, lol.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Well let me close the circle.  @Barnjam started this thread because he found it difficult to fret the middle string, so he sought a longer dulcimer with extended range on each individual string. If you click the link to Ron Gibson's "extended range" dulcimer that @Marko provides, you will see that the strings are very close together and there is little room on the outside of the melody and bass string.  My hands are not that large, but I would find the fretboard on that dulcimer to be insufficiently wide.  Folkcraft also created a 5-string dulcimer called the MaxDAD, which was basically a standard and a bass dulcimer together.  It was tuned DADAD (not sure how to indicate the octaves there).  But their first version of it did not work precisely because the strings were too close together.  So they widened the fretboard to make it more comfortable to play.  One reason I don't own any McSpaddens is that despite the consistently high quality of the tone, the fretboard is so narrow that if you bend the bass or melody string, you often move the string off the end of the fretboard.

What this demonstrates, I think, is that the wideness of the fretboard and the distance between strings is an important variable, perhaps more important that VSL even, and yet it is one that gets little attention either by builders or by players.

I don't know how practical it might be to build a longer dulcimer to add more frets and perhaps get an extra octave on each string, but the issue @Barnjam is dealing with is a common one that should be addressed by builders and players as we customize our instruments.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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That's a good point. In general I've found that low gauge strings tend to have tighter constraints on how high the tension can go, but 13lb seems like it would be manageable. Most of the stuff I've read online says that all string gauges can be brought to a similar tension before breaking if they are made of the same material, but I'm skeptical of that. Eventually I'll have to find out for myself next time i go to the string store.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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The way I interpreted the original question is that he was asking about extending the range of frets in a way that adds extra low notes at the nut end while maintaining diatonic frets for the key of D. Like tuning the instrument DAE and having a fret layout that still contains all the notes of the D major scale starting on E. It's an interesting idea and I've seen a couple of old dulcimers that seemed to be doing something similar, and I might have to try it eventually just for the novelty.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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You may as well try to trademark the name "Black Cat".
(But I shouldn't have veered as far off Barnjam's topic as I did. Will try to behave now.) 

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Well, now that is very interesting, indeed!

Extended Range Dulcimer

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@Dusty, there are 3 octaves across all three strings, 0-6 on the bass then 0-14 [DAd] in the melody [and various combos using the middle string]. Three on one string is something else, probably huge to be usable.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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@Skip, you are correct that the way most luthiers make their dulcimers, a longer VSL just means larger spaces in between fret wire, for the fretboard is usually fixed at a little more than two octaves (most have 17, 18, or 19 frets).  However, there is no reason that has to be the case.  A dulcimer with a long enough VSL could be configured for 3 full, usable octaves. 

I personally would have no use for such a dulcimer, but it is theoretically possible to build one.

This is an example of how different our approaches to playing and therefore our design preferences can be.  One reason I love my McCafferty dulcimer is that it has only 14 frets but an extended strum hollow, allowing the right hand a more comfortable angle and more room to play.  I also had the luthier bring the strings closer together for me, for I find it easier to play fast when the strings are closer together.  And the 25" scale length means I can fret chords with ease.

@Barnjam clearly has different needs than I.  He is seeking a dulcimer with a longer VSL to accommodate an extra octave and greater space between the strings to accommodate his large hands.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I forgot to say you would need 17 frets, not counting 1/2 frets to get 2 octaves A [low] to D [high] on one string.

updated by @skip: 10/06/25 10:51:37PM

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I've found the experts! I'm impressed with all the good ideas and knowledge amongst you. I find this musical journey to be quite fascinating. There are so many factors that can affect the music we play.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I'm a bit confused by all of this. Fourteen frets is two diatonic octaves, D to D or A to A or whatever, regardless of the VSL. A longer VSL [fretboard] just increases the distance between frets. It doesn't 'add' any any notes. A wider fretboard increases space between strings, but so can adjusting the middle string closer to the bass string. My recommendation would be to get something with a long VSL and adjust the string spacing between the middle and bass string. A nut set up for single or double melody strings has a wider space between these two strings built in [usually about 1/8"] by removing the inner melody string.

updated by @skip: 10/06/25 09:50:53PM

Extended Range Dulcimer

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@barnjam ...remember you don't 'have to' play in the key of D, either. And having a chromatic means you don't have to worry about the usual diatonic 'gaps' in the fretboard when choosing your tunings and keys. 

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Yikes.  I once started using .009 strings to tune to dulcimer high D (D4) on a 28" scale. The strings tuned to the note ok, but they were so thin that they broke all too often often while playing. So I went back to using .010 for my melody strings to tune to high D.  But i can't even imagine doing that with a 35" scale length (!) and a .007 string. 
Does that "Stringjoy" Tension Calculator tell you when one of its suggestions would likely result in a string that breaks, or a string that is too slack?  I doubt it includes such useful info. I suspect that like any non-human, all it will inform you of is what numbers are correct for the calculation.  BUT... if anyone could actually do that experiment Nate, it would be YOU!    

Extended Range Dulcimer

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More good information to consider. I think some combination of DAA tuning with a wider fretboard would be the best solution, without getting into expensive custom builds. I appreciate your time and knowledge on this.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Strumelia could you please elaborate on that?

The "stringjoy string tension calculator" says that a 35" VSL tuned to D4 with a 0.007 gauge string (lowest Ive seen in an ernie ball pack) will have ~13 lb of tension. 

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Another factor when making the fretboard longer and longer is that, depending on what notes you want to tune the strings to, you will have to choose string gauges that will enable you to tune to those notes on that length of fretboard. The trick is that although you'll have a range of choices by choosing various gauges, the choices are not unlimited as to how heavy(low) and how thin(high) you can go for a particular length of fretboard and choice of open string note. You can't for example tune to a dulcimer high D on a fretboard that is 35" long... the required string would be so thin it would snap under tension long before being tuned to high d. The opposite is true as well (trying to tune to very low notes on a very short fretboard... the required string would be impossibly fat and slack).

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Yes, I do prefer to only play on the melody string although I have fun playing melody on the bass string sometimes. I have a chromatic Weissenborn, and I enjoy it, but it forces me to think more. My diatonic dulcimers are fun to play because my precision can be lower, with less frets. Thanks Nate. All great ideas.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I think an important question is: do you prefer to only play on the melody string, or would you prefer to be able to fret all three strings?
If you're only fretting the melody string out of compromise, then a wider fretboard could solve your problem.

A dulcimer does not have all the frets of the chromatic scale, which is why the major scale must start on either the open string for DAd (1-5-8) or the 3rd fret for DAA (1-5-5) if you want to have all the notes in the major scale. For this reason, if you wanted to tune the melody string lower than A and still get all the notes of the D major scale, you would have to add extra frets. For example, if you tuned the instrument DAG, there would be no fret for C#, unless you add a 3.5 fret. You could potentially set the fret layout to allow your melody string to be tuned to any note, though it would look strange for some. Or with a chromatic instrument, you could just tune it any old way and always have all the needed frets for your D major scale.

It's possible to tune the melody string lower and add extra frets, but could lead to it's own problems, like if you wanted to play melody on the bass string, your melody string would no longer be a harmonious drone to accompany it.

I see that the dulcimer you showed a photo of has two full octaves of frets plus 3 frets of the third octave. If you have large fingers, it will definitely be difficult to try to fret in those teeny tiny spaces, and if you add more frets to the high end, the gaps between them only get smaller.

The longer the VSL, the more space you'll have between frets in that third octave, but that can only help so much.

updated by @nate: 10/06/25 01:35:04PM

A question about intonating a dulcimer

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Happy to hear everything worked out for you.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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That makes perfect sense. The open string note is the lowest a string can be. I'm overthinking it for sure. The solution then is to tune in DAA and add more frets to the upper neck. A larger dulcimer body with a longer neck and wider fretboard would help make the spaces. THANK YOU!

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I wrote a blog post on the angling of our fretting fingers that elaborates on that subject a little more- you might find something helpful in it:
https://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.com/2012/07/lazy-fingers.html

 

You can't really have it both ways. If a string is tuned to D, you cannot play notes lower than that D (except if you start by playing in the higher octave, as you said).  Adding inches to the fretboard and some additional frets near the nut will not change anything, if you continue to tune your melody string to D .
Here is a very simple explanation of how an 'extended neck' Pete Seeger type long-necked (w/extra frets) banjo works- I find it helpful: https://www.deeringbanjos.com/pages/understanding-longneck-banjos?srsltid=AfmBOoo4bvXWt71VmGRjwkBHRjKQaD0g1EMhYPkE42R3hx7m9mR8bc1i  (banjos are most typically tuned to play in the key of G, and Pete frequently made use of capos to play/sing in various keys on his longneck banjo)

Truthfully, I might be misunderstanding your request or your concept here. The bottom line though is that on any string, you cannot play notes lower than that particular string is tuned to... no matter how long the neck is or how many additional frets you put on.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Sorry....couldn't help myself....

A question about intonating a dulcimer

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Mike, I'm glad to hear that you have your dulcimer playing well again and happy that we were helpful. Enjoy playing both of your dulcimers. 

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

updated by @ken-longfield: 10/06/25 10:22:42AM

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Thanks for the responses, all. John, that "Uncle Eddie" is insanely cool. That's a great suggestion on the long neck banjo. I've reached out to John Knopf with these questions. Dusty, agreed and that is exactly what my Milford Blevins model has (in order to accommodate 8 strings). Strumelia, your suggestion of arching the fingers is excellent, and I will try to improve on that. Regarding your questions: 1) Yes, on both a longer and wider fretboard for finger space and tonal range 2) Yes, I'd like to play notes that dip below the "home" note of D on the melody string. I did try DAA tuning and I enjoyed the ability to hit those lower notes, but I was then limited on the higher octave. I'm looking for both sides of the spectrum.

My primary concert dulcimers are modified to be loud. Both my converted guitar/dulcimer, Milford B. model, and J. McAnulty Weissenborn are very resonant even without an amp. I've added drop A & D strings for deep bass and extra resonance. I use Fender heavy triangle picks and higher gauge strings as I tend to strum and pick aggressively. I've attached a few pics to help illustrate the set-ups.

updated by @barnjam: 10/06/25 10:02:45AM

A question about intonating a dulcimer

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I'm not at all surprised.

All instruments need to be properly "set up," and this is often left to the retail seller. Amateur builders often don't know how to do the simple adjustments. Many of the string instruments in charity stores are "throwaways" that people got as a gift or as so-called bargains which only need a proper set-up.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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One added thing I'd like to just check on-
you say you have trouble with bumping into other strings when you fret and slide with your "large hands", yet your dulcimer has a larger than usual fretboard already.
Are you fretting with the bony TIPS of your fingers, with your hand arched up over the strings, or are you fretting with the fatty PADS of your fingers, with your hand held more horizontally as though you are typing on a laptop?  Fretting with te very tips of the fingers can make all the difference in the world when it comes to getting clean sound and not bumping into other strings or muffling your own notes while cutting off resonating notes.

updated by @strumelia: 10/06/25 08:48:43AM

Extended Range Dulcimer

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I'm a little confused here and i have questions. You say you like to play the melody mostly all on your melody string while occasionally plucking the middle string, yet you also say you like to play melody on the lower string. 
Are you simply wanting a longer and wider fretboard, and will continue to tune to DAd and play in the key of D?...are you just seeking extra space for your large fingers?
OR... are you wanting to play notes that dip below the 'home' note of D on your melody string, as in tuning to DAA for example?
From your question, I'm not really sure of your goal.

A question about intonating a dulcimer

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I got home yesterday and had a burst of energy and filed down the string slots on my dulcimer "nut!". It was a complete success! I started with the middle A string since that was the one that was the most off and then did the others. My dulcimer sounds great now!  The only thing I forgot to do was to put a little bit of graphite in each slot, but I can do that anytime. I want to thank all of you for the help you gave me with this. If I have any other questions or issues with my dulcimers I know where to come!

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Another possibility would be a wider fretboard with more space in between strings.  Just a thought.

Extended Range Dulcimer

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Sending a "long vsl" chart borrowed from Folkcraft...31 3/8 VSL. Is this what you envision? It would take some time to do the math on string gauge etc....To think of what that length looks like, picture a Pete Seger long neck banjo. All you have to do is remove the resonator and slap the remains on an hourglass body....voila!

This other fella on FOTMD may be able to help....looks like he builds some big honkin' dulcimores....