Forum Activity for @david-bennett

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As Rockwell sang back in the '80s, "I always feel like somebody's watchin' me"

updated by @david-bennett: 05/26/21 02:00:06PM

Making a dulcimer humidity resistant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I build dulcimers in a humid coastal climate and I do worry about shipping a dulcimer to very dry climates. So far I've had no complaints. I  always use aged dry wood to start with and that helps.

All instruments need a time to acclimate to there new home.

I would be more concerned if the dulcimer has wood pegs. Wood pegs are like barometers when the climate dries I  know  because I'll hear strings popping in the night!. 

Back in the sixties during the guitar boom, made in Japan imported instruments came with a thick plastic like finish to survive the ocean crossing. Which is why they sounded so bad.

Today imports are shipped climate controlled.

I would say start with good aged wood and a good thin oil finish and cut your fret slots with a saw intended for fret tang dimensions  and you'll be ok... Robert 

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks for all this info. I am not getting the instrument after all even though I paid for it.  

I bought the instrument on eBay last week-made the seller an offer and she accepted. That was a week ago Tuesday. This morning when I sent a message asking if it had been shipped and if my payment went through ok, she suddenly gave me a refund when I had never asked for a refund.

I’m wondering if the seller changed her mind and decided she wanted to keep the instrument after all. She wrote reason for refund as “item not as described “. I did mention it might be an Aeolian harp and was looking forward to trying it out.  Maybe that made her want to keep it.

I did report it to eBay.

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I think generically it is a plucked psaltery or plucked zither, not usually played with hammers but by deft fingerpicking.

It becomes an Aeolian or Wind Harp if you use it that way and it makes sound in the wind. (I've never understood how that works with average breezes, whatever Wikipedia says about vortex effects - but if it works, it works!)

I'd just tune it to a C or D scale - or whatever, depending on the thickness of the strings and what pitch they'll hold. 

Making a dulcimer humidity resistant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I agree with Lisa and Ken that the instrument needs to adapt to it's environment. In fact I think that more humidtiy is better than the opposite: One of my gutiars lost it's bridge due to the winter room climate (coming from the gas oven). The luthier, who fixed it explained to me, that wood continues to "work" (means changing depending on it's environment). He even gave me a handout exlaining how different degrees of humidity influencing the wood:  Although it's for guitars I guess it's not much different for dulcimers, it's still a plucked wood instrument too :)

I will try to give the most important things from it (Text is from Tobias Ahlke Luthier at Essence Guitars, Oberwinter-Remagen, Germany, translated with DeepL by me). If somebody here understands German I can also post a scan from it.
Although it might sound a bit scary I also agree with Ken that you are overthinking it. Even if the dulcimer might suffer a bit from the climate at your sisters place, it should be fixable and in the worst case  she can always get a new instrument. But now to the wise words of Mr. Ahlke:

"Wood is hygroscopic. This means that even after decades of storage and in the installed state, it can still absorb moisture from the air or release it into the air. If it absorbs moisture, it increases in dimensions; if it releases moisture, it shrinks.  

The ideal humidity for guitars made of solid wood is about 50% relative humidity at a normal room temperature of about 21%. The woods of your guitar are stored and processed in my workshop at a controlled humidity between 45% and 50%. In this range your instrument can be played great and sounds best. If the humidity deviates, typical symptoms quickly appear and massive irrversible damage can occur:

• 60% relative humidity and above: The  string action  may increase, the curvatures of the top and back are exaggerated, glue bindings may break, frets and tuners are dull and tarnished, uncoated strings oxidize excessively fast.
• 40% relative humidity and below: The fingerboard shrinks, which is noticeable protruding fret edges. If necessary, the string action decreases. The wood is under tension
• 35% relative humidity and below: The grain of the wood is clearly formed through the varnish (e.g. the ceiling looks streaky). Cracks may appear in the ceiling and floor
• 30% relative humidity and below: Glue joints can break, cracks become larger and larger, the statics of the instrument are in danger!
• 25% relative humidity: glue joints can break, frets become loose, the instrument unplayable, maybe forever!

Humidity can be easily controlled with commercially available electric hygrometers, which are either stored in the instrument's case or placed at the instrument's location. If you do not want to or cannot regulate the humidity in the whole room, it is recommended to place a humidifier or dehumidifier near the instrument in the closed head. From our point of view, the "Humidipak" from D'Addario/Planet Waves has proven itself here, as this can keep the relative humidity constant at 48%, regardless of whether humidification or dehumidification is required.

Climate and temperature

A guitar feels at home where the player also feels at home: Neither does one like to sit in the blazing sunlight, in the middle of a draft, nor in front of the turned-up heater or in a damp cellar.
Temperatures between 0 and 40 degrees Celsius (32 - 104 ° F) are usually no problem for your guitar, although you should make sure that the guitar can slowly get used to the new temperature. Otherwise, fine cracks may appear in the wood and varnish and glue joints may be damaged.
40 degrees Celsisus (104 °F) and above: the woods begin to bend with the string tension, deformation occurs. The varnish may soften, feel sticky, or develop pressure marks under light loads.
0 degrees Celsius (32 ° F) and below: wood, varnish and glue joints are cold, hard and brittle, cracks and breaks are likely to occur with stress."

So I think a high humidity might less a problem than the other extrems (lower humidity and to much heat): At least the potential results sounds fixable. If the climate is really to much for the dulcimers storing them in a case with a Humidipak or a simmiliar system ( https://www.daddario.com/products/accessories/humidification/automatic-humidipak/humidipak-maintain/ ) should help. Note: As said above this tool and the hints from Mr Ahlke are for guitars, but since dulcimers are made of wood too, I thought, they might be helpful :) 

If somebody asks for it I can scan Mr Ahlkes handout.

Regards, Jost.

updated by @jost: 05/24/21 01:32:10PM

Zoom group invitation

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks, Dan. I'll contact Bobby.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Zoom group invitation

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@ken-longfield the site is open to the Berea section only. Bobby can probably open the Traditional Zoomers section so they can look, but they would still need to register to post. 

Zoom group invitation

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks, Robin for letting me know about the link. I'm not sure how the site works regarding guests reading the various topics. I'll check in to it. I never log out, so I don't have to reenter my password six for seven times a day.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Zoom group invitation

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I've never participated in a Zoom gathering yet I think it's a great idea!  

PS- The link to the TTAD site for the zoom only works if one is logged into the site, I think.  When I was logged in it worked when I was logged out it didn't.   

Healthy Living- healthy eating, exercise, weight loss, veggie gardening, etc.

OFF TOPIC discussions

Flowers are some of life’s greatest nourishment.

Making a dulcimer humidity resistant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ken please stop 'yelling' or I might have to send someone to remove your CAPS lock and exclamation point keys in the middle of the night. Seriously, bro.

Nate, I'm not sure why you'd be trying to reduce humidity during shipping... the dulcimer is going to be all wrapped up in multiple layers during transit and also... what good will it do once the package is opened anyway?  It's true that the instrument is going to have to adapt to its environment one way or another. Just my opinion, but right by the sea I don't see how silica or gel bags will provide longterm relief unless the dulcimer spends almost all its time in its case.

They say that it's rapid drastic changes in temps and humidity that harm instruments more than simply a constant environment that's hot, or humid, etc.

I have a good friend who learned the hard way. They forgot their beautiful Martin guitar in the car for an hour on a very hot summer day. Inside the car was over 100F. They rushed it into an air conditioned house and immediately opened the case to check on it. It looked ok. Within one minute that guitar in its open case literally exploded with a huge bang, into a million pieces.   If only my friend had brought the case into the cool house and just left it there for several hours to adjust slowly prior to opening the case , the guitar would probably have been ok. But I digress...

I honestly don't know much about wood, but maybe using hardwoods rather than softwoods in construction will help keep a humid dulcimer more stable? Or perhaps making the back piece a tiny bit thicker to increase structural stability? Just random thoughts.

Banjo players, who struggle mightily with humidity if they have real calf or goatskin heads... sometimes use the old trick of spraying two very light coats of Aquanet hairspray (or one of those art pastel fixative sprays) on both sides of the skin head. This actually does help prevent the skin from absorbing so much humidity from the air that it softens and sags and makes the banjo unplayable. This has worked remarkably well for me on my real skin banjo heads during some very humid summer camping weekends. It doesn't seem to effect the sound either. Makes the skin a little more stiff and waterproof. It does darken the skin a little and makes it more translucent. (which i find attractive)
I see no harm at all in spraying 2 light coats of Aquanet on the inner sides of your dulcimer body wood. We're not talking about a Stradivarius here. It may actually help seal and prevent the wood from expanding/contracting quite as much due to fluctuations in air moisture. I suppose you could spray the outer surface too, but it may create an unwanted finish so best to test first.

updated by @strumelia: 05/24/21 05:49:18PM

Making a dulcimer humidity resistant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 YOU ARE SERIOUSLY OVER-THINKING THIS WHOLE THING!

"-coating the inside of the dulcimer in something water protectant: an idea I had earlier that seemed to not be useful in general, but maybe in this context would help it hold up."

No, NO, NO!   I live much closer to the ocean than your sister, and coating the inside will NOT work.  If it did I would be doing it.  For two years I lived less than 100 yards from the ocean on an island in the Pacific near the equator, one of the saltiest environments on the planet!  If coating the inside would have worked I would have done it.  IT DOES NOTHING!

-gluing in frets with a strong glue: in general I know that stronger glues tend to make maintenance and repair much more difficult, but if I want to build it to last, maybe I should glue them in with something heavy duty to reduce the chances of them shifting?

It is worth noting that I have traveled down there with dulcimers I have built and always had to pummel some raised frets every time I got there, so this is a primary concern for me.

You should not need to glue frets in if your slots are the proper width (not too wide), cut to the proper depth (not too shallow), and you have hammered/pressed them in properly.  However, if you feel you must glue, use one of the slow setting Super Glues, as my friend John Knopf recommends will do the job.

Gel Packs -- WILL NOT WORK. Not the way you think. You'd need ten pounds of silica gel and it will only last a few days. 

The fact is that the Dulcimer needs to adjust to the environment where it will live.  If it can't because you sealed it up inside and out, one scratch will cause it to warp horribly.   If the dulcimer can't adapt to local conditions because you artificially adjust it's local humidity with gel packs, it will warp the instant you let the humidity change.

Healthy Living- healthy eating, exercise, weight loss, veggie gardening, etc.

OFF TOPIC discussions

Garden...
I planted my tomato plants and tomatillo plants today. My green sauce seems to be a big hit with my husband, so I will try to make a lot this year and can it again. My final batch from late last summer lasted us all the way until the following April! Green tomatillo sauce really gives a wonderful taste of summer in the middle of the dark bleak winter.

Last year due to the pandemic i tried to grow as much veggies in the garden as possible. It was frustrating because my soil was depleted. This Spring i worked hard to apply compost and straw, and I decided to give myself a break by not trying to plant and tend so many kinds of veggies this year. So, I'm sticking with my tomatoes, tomatillos, some peppers, and of course the blueberries. Much of the vegetable garden will simply lie resting under compost and straw this Summer. Hoping the earthworms come and aerate it.

Instead of my usual other veggies, I'm planting more simple annual flowers just to lift my spirit with cheerful colors and bouquets. I bought some flats with good old fashioned zinnias. Also some tall violet ageratum, blue morning glories, a big blue hyssop plant and 3 purple salvia for the various bees, and several spectacular red tithonia.
I can't wait to see all the new crazy colors in my garden this year for a change!

Making a dulcimer humidity resistant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Nate, you could tape some silica-gel packets to a string, so she can pull them out of a soundhole when she gets it.

I've used super-glue to glue in frets, and it works fine.  Should you ever need to remove a glued-in fret, just hold the tip of a small soldering pencil on the center of the fret, and the glue softens in a few seconds so you can pry it out..

Making a dulcimer humidity resistant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thank you all very much for your advice. First of all let me just say that my sister has TONS of pets and so she keeps her windows open all day every day and lives only about 2 miles from the pacific ocean, so the salty air is ever present there, whereas I am currently inland in southern oregon where the weather is similar, but FAR less humid. It sounds to me like I am overthinking it. With that in mind I'd like your perspectives on a few ideas i think might help.
-silica packs in the dulcimer: I'll be the first to tell you my understanding of the proper application of silica packs is limited to the shoes and jerky I've bought, but I believe it may help to keep the dulcimer intact during travel. If thats the case id like to place the soundhole in such a way that she can retrieve and packs out of it
-coating the inside of the dulcimer in something water protectant: an idea I had earlier that seemed to not be useful in general, but maybe in this context would help it hold up.
-gluing in frets with a strong glue: in general I know that stronger glues tend to make maintenance and repair much more difficult, but if I want to build it to last, maybe I should glue them in with something heavy duty to reduce the chances of them shifting?

It is worth noting that I have traveled down there with dulcimers I have built and always had to pummel some raised frets every time I got there, so this is a primary concern for me

I'd love more input! Stay well y'all
-Nate

updated by @nate: 05/22/21 07:52:16PM

Bass dulcimer strings

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Here is a gross generalization, but it helps in understanding the function of scale lengths:

smaller/shorter instruments are often tuned to higher pitches and octaves and have thinner strings. (think violins and mandolins)

larger/longer instruments are often tuned lower pitches and have thicker strings. (think 'cellos and double-basses)

There are many combinations of string gauges, tunings, and VSLs that will 'function' for various goals, but keep in mind that as you stray further and further from the ideal gauge for a given length and note, the more unsatisfactory the result will be. Extreme examples of this concept are: 1) putting thin violin strings on a cello and trying to tune it to the same violin high notes, and 2) putting thick cello strings on a violin and trying to tune it to the same low cello notes.  Hope this helps.

Bass dulcimer strings

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks Dusty

Zoom group invitation

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

For about a year now a group of folks have been getting together Tuesday evenings on Zoom to play mountain dulcimer together. We invite you join us. We play noter or finger dancing style mostly in DAA but also in DAC, DAG, and DAd. The format is one person leads a song/tune while everyone else is muted and plays along. While Dave Holeton usually leads, others have led as well. You are welcome to join us. We meet on Tuesday evenings at 8:30 p.m. (EDT), 7:30 p.m. (CDT), 6:30 p.m. (MDT), and 5:30 p.m. PDT. A link for each week's meeting is available on The Traditional Mountain Dulcimore website. Here is a link to the thread where meetings are posted: https://thetraditionalappalachiandulcimore.com/board/47/ttad-zoom-group

The meeting lasts for 40 minutes and we usually work on four songs.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

updated by @ken-longfield: 05/21/21 05:14:22PM

Bass dulcimer strings

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

For reference purposes: Blue Lion's bass dulcimer has a 27.5" scale length and they use .052w for the bass, .032w for the middle, and .024w for the melody.

More and more luthiers are making dulcimers with shorter scale lengths, even for baritone and bass dulcimers.  New Harmony is now making baritone and bass models with 25" and 26" scale lengths. You might contact Rick there and see what they use for string gauges.  To really get a bass sound I think you need pretty heavy strings.  Those recommendations Ken got from the String Calculator--always the place to start--are pretty close to what I use on my 27" Probst strung as a baritone. (34, 24, 16).

updated by @dusty: 05/21/21 03:58:25PM

Bass dulcimer strings

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hi Ken, 

  I caught the Prime mark on the string Calculator, TY for the info

Bass dulcimer strings

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Sorry Bill, I mis-wrote that tuning below...   A Bass Dulcimer 1-3-5 tuning is designated D'A'D or C'G'C. 

Notice the ' marks on the first D and A.   This tells us that those notes are a full octave lower than the common DAd. 

In fact, on a bass dulcimer the melody string D is the same as the bass string D on a regular dulcimer.   If you look on the Strothers Calculator that I posted below, you will find that for your very short VSL Bass Dulcimer you will need the following strings:

D' = .035
A' = .027
D = .020

You won't be able to put those strings on a regular dulcimer nut and bridge -- the slots will be too narrow.  If you're trying to make a bass dulcimer out of a regular dulcimer, you will need to open up the string slots on the nut and bridge, with a small triangular file, so the strings can sit properly. Not particularly deeper, but wider.

Most bass dulcimers that I have seen over the years have had much longer VSLs -- 28", 29" even 30".  

Bass dulcimer strings

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

26.5 VSL

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Between my wife and I if we cold get them all rounded up in the same room at once I think the correct number is 7.  Including a pretty old cardboard dulcimer, a couple of what I suppose are home-made dulcimers my wife picked up when she worked 1 day a week in an antique shop, a small Cripple Creek (think cheap) dulcimer from the same shop, a TK O'Brian, a Hill Country Dulcimer and a courting Dulcimer.  Our latest acquisition was last month when my wife found a Cedar Creek 12/11 Hammered Dulcimer at a garage sale, but I'm not sure I should count it in with its Mountain Dulcimer "cousins."  Oh yeah, I forgot... I also have a Cedar Creek Strumstick.

updated by @rob-williams: 05/21/21 02:29:46PM

Bass dulcimer strings

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

As always Bill, we can't help with string gauges unless you also tell us what the VSL of your dulcimer is.  Once you have that and the base tuning you want -- DAd (not DAD)  -- you can use the Strothers String Choice Calculator and plug in the numbers yourself:

Tom & Missy Strothers | String Choice

Bass dulcimer strings

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

What  gage  strings are used for a bass dulcimer tuned DAD?

Rosin the Beau and recycling melodies for new songs

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

<Chuckle!>  I've always figured it was a pun on rosining the bow from the start.

Rosin the Beau and recycling melodies for new songs

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hi @lois-sprengnether-keel.  Well you've demonstrate how you can do good history lesson using folks music.

The words we know to Old Rosin the Beau certainly makes it a drinking song, but I wonder if the song was not originally an instrumental simply called Rosin the Bow, and someone put some tongue-in-cheek lyrics to it, creating a song better known than the original.

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Aeolian or Wind Harp.  You set it across the width of the sill of an open window, and close the sash down almost on top of it, to funnel the breeze over the strings.  

Rosin the Beau and recycling melodies for new songs

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I do a program using the abolition song "Roll on the Liberty Ball" that was sung at the planting of the enormous cedar that was the marker (seen for miles) of the Underground Railroad Station operated by the family of the woman I portray (Liberetta Lerich Green).  Later when Civil War years near and I talk about the family's involvement in that & Lincoln's election, I use "Lincoln & Liberty, Too" -- his campaign song.  Both sets of lyrics to "Old Rosin the Beau" were by the abolitionist music group, The Hutchinson Family Singers.  I have 3 blog articles about them and Civil War music at  http://www.storytellingresearchlois.com/search/label/Hutchinson%20Family%20Singers .  The most recent (therefore the first shown) has a video of ex-Weaver, Ronnie Gilbert singing "Lincoln and Liberty, Too."  Personally I always found it funny singing to the tune of "Old Rosin the Beau" as the family's father was staunchly anti-alcohol, even salting the corn crop he sold to pay their part in an Underground Railroad fine paid by all members of the network.

I use the songs to tie together Liberetta's life story, fitting some incidents to verses, since a normal life, unlike fiction doesn't have an easy outline.  The song also has predictable repetition, encouraging audience participation.

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

It does look to be an Aeolian harp! Thanks for everyone’s help.

Looking forward to it being shipped and receiving it.

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Cool!  The name sounded familiar so I looked it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolian_harp .  You let the wind play it.

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Now it’s really beginning to get interesting.

Found a Don Oblander who was the guitar player in 1967-1970 for a Beaverton, Oregon band called, Summer Blues Band and later called Chains of Illusion. He did some posting on a guitar forum and might possibly have been a luthier.

Would this be meant to play with hammers?

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Aeolian Harp

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

It reminds me  of psalters like this ones: https://www.klangwerkstatt.de/psalterien

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Found a couple of obits with the name but no info on a Don Oblander who made instruments. I’ve been searching for a couple of days and can’t find much info at all about this instrument.

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I've never seen one. Is Don Oblander still around on the internet?

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

More pics…

What is this instrument?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hello to all,

I just bought this instrument online because I really thought it was neat and interesting looking. I own two mountain dulcimers and like collecting musical instruments, especially wooden stringed instruments.  My question is, what is it?

It is almost 24” long. If identified, how should it be tuned?

thanks,

Rosin the Beau and recycling melodies for new songs

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks, @ken-longfield and @ken-hulme. I should have know you two would be the first to join the conversation!

Having grown up in Boston, I've know the Charlie and the MTA song about as long as I've known the Longfellow poem about Paul Revere ("Listen my children and you shall hear . . . ").  Both were required material in elementary schools.

There are lots of one-offs, I assume.  I heard an old Scottish tune called "The Bold Princess Royal" that must have been the source of the melody for Sweet Betsy from Pike.

But so far you guys have confirmed my sense that Rosin the Beau has been used more than any other melody.

Edit audio descriptions without spamming the Home site

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Thanks Dusty and Strumelia. I think I will use the comments section and stop worrying :)

As somebody, who maintains servers for a living I can understand your attitude. My coworkers and I have to to some regular maintenance work (e.g. before the hard drive of the server gets full). Most of this stuff isn't a real hassle or just doesn't happen too often. If tasks  tends to repeats a lot we are looking for a way to make the server do the work for us :)

So: Although I think it would be good to hide the boxes it's propably not worth the hassle If they are not used by most people anyway. 

Regards, Jost.