Forum Activity for @strumelia

Robin, Jean Ritchie is an example of a player experimenting with various tunings before 1940.  I highly recommend anyone interested in dul;cimer history to read her very entertaining account of growing up in her book "Singing Family of the Cumberlands".  In it, she describes being a little girl who snuck her father's dulcimer off the wall when no one was around, and sitting on the floor behind the couch, picking out her favorite tunes from her family's huge traditional repertoire.  She describes figuring out that she had to retune the melody string in order to play some of the tunes on the melody string... to have all the notes she needed.  She then tells of her father Balis coming home and taking the dulcimer off the wall and commenting that "The wind must have gotten to these strings again."  (he knew)  

Anyway, Jean was born in 1922, so if she were 8 or 10 at that time, that would have been 1930-32.  But aside from Jean, I find it impossible to believe that other traditional mountain musicians had not also done such obvious experimenting.  They did so abundantly with banjos, after all.  And it seems highly unlikely to me that they would have given up on playing all the wonderful spooky ballads and hymns popular at the time simply because they didn't realize they could turn a peg and get all the notes needed.  They turned their pegs all the time, just to get in tune after all.  I experiment with tunings on various instruments myself, and I'm no music scholar or professional.  I just think there is precious little written documentation from those times and remote areas.  These were pretty isolated mountain areas, with not so much formal education available pre-1930.

Well, it's official now... I'm heading to Hindman!  

I can't miss the opportunity to see you fine folks again, as well as some of my wonderful customers!

Don't know yet if I'll be a vendor -- I don't seem to fare too well at dulcimer selling there.  I plan to bring my newest walnut Thomas though, and a black poplar one if I can put one together in time.  We'll see.

Keep in mind too, that Galax dulcimers have the opposite of shallow narrow bodies... yet because of their repertoire and playing style, most folks seem to regard them as very 'traditional sounding' as well.  

and.. One can play many old tunes in DAd tuning in noter drone style and sound 'traditional'.  But it's not 'because' they are in DAd tuning. Likewise, one can play Shady Grove on a traditional-replica dulcimer in DAG tuning, in modern chord style, ...and NOT sound very traditional.  The many variables come into play, but I would consider the least influential of those to be the tuning.

I agree with Strumelia that traditional 'sounding' has as much to do with playing style, dulcimer set-up and repertoire as tuning.

Both Kens make some great points about the tunings that were used prior to the folk revival of the 60s.

From the research I have done, I would say there were primarily two 'traditional' tunings for the Appalachian dulcimer.  These were some sort of 1-5-5 tuning (such as DAA or CGG or Gdd etc) and some sort of unison tuning such as Ccc or ddd(d).  Both centred the scale at the 3rd fret (Ionian scale) but unison could also be played from the nut (mixolidian scale).

Different communities built different dulcimers and generally would have used one of these two tuning systems and pretty much stuck with it.

There were very good reasons why you may choose either tuning as a dulcimer maker and player.  Unison tuning only needs one gauge of piano wire - so you could buy one roll of wire to make all your strings.  Mind you, you can get away with some 1-5-5 tunings on some old dulcimers also just using one gauge of piano wire (the Mawhee dulcimer was tuned to G,d,d for example that was strung with No8 wire for all 3 strings).  But it is nice also to have that root note in the drones rather than just 5ths, so 1-5-5 was popular with some makers, who were prepared to use different wire gauges.

There is very little (none that I've found) evidence that pre 1940s players shifted tuning - they were more likely to move the tune to fit the instrument's tuning than change the tuning to fit the tune!!!

Unfortunately, there's lots missing in our knowledge of the traditional dulcimer sound.  You really have to search to piece the evidence together about tunings, playing styles, dulcimer set-ups and repertoire and there are very few early recordings to help.

What I can say is that DAd was not used traditionally.  You certainly couldn't get into it with just one string gauge (it is a struggle with two as tuning the one gauge to both A and that high 'd' is problematic for wooden pegs) and it is limited to just the mixolidian scale from the nut.  It is not a natural or pragmatic tuning for an old dulcimer.

Robin

PS I was writing while Dan and Lisa posted.  Dan makes some good points about traditional design and bridge/nut position.  And Lisa, I'd be hard pressed to 'hear' the difference between DAd and DAA played noter drone - the non traditional aspect of DAd is not the tuning's sound but its practicality.

I bet "DAA is really Mixolydian" was a typo and they meant to say DAD.   

As for SOUND, I don't get why people think DAd sounds fundamentally different from DAA.  Think about it.  The drones are D and A no matter which tuning you've got.  The melody, which you're playing in the key of D, has the SAME notes.  You find the notes on different frets, but a C# is a C#.

In DAA you start the scale fretting the melody string at the 3rd fret; you are playing the notes D, A and d (one octave up from the bass string).  Now tune the dulcimer to DAd.  The scale starts at the open fret and once again you are playing the notes D, A and d.  The only reasons why DAA and DAd might sound different are:

1) the melody string tension is tighter when tuned up to d (if you use a different string gauge this becomes less of an issue)

2) a fretted note sounds different from an open one (particularly when using the noter to slide up into the note)

3) some dulcimers have intonation problems between open and fretted notes (fix the dulcimer)

4) the melody dips down onto the middle string more often in DAd than DAA

So OK, it sounds a little different, but not much.  I don't believe most listeners could tell the difference between DAA and DAd.  If anybody tried to tell me DAd "sounds" more traditional, I would call hogwash. 

It's worth noting that someone who's been building dulcimers for 30 years started in 1988.  They don't necessarily know beans about tradition. 

""Traditional dulcimer sound" comes not from the tuning, but from the shallow/narrow bodies of 'traditional' dulcimers which have much less interior volume that a conventional modern dulcimer.  Modern dulcimers with a 27" VSL are roughly 2.25" deep x 7-8" wide x 31" long (minus the head);  a traditional dulcimer with the same VSL is roughly 1.25" deep, 6-7" wide and 28" long.  When tuned to the same tuning,  the lesser volume traditional instrument tends to give a more "high silvery" sound; where the modern dulcimer tends to produce a deeper more "mellow", sound."

I will add that the nut and bridge are well over the ends of the piece. This is the traditional placement and facilitates "that sound" we refer to as traditional. I will also add that the intonations are different from contemporary pieces. Getting a good intonation across four different modes is at odds with a contemporary equal temperament and adds to that slightly out of tune sound from a traditional piece! I hope we are not muddying the water too much.....

I will also add, Richard you have an authentic traditional piece, they don't get no more traditional than that!!!

DAN

www.dulcimore.com

Lots of great replies already!  

Personally I find that the concept of 'traditional sounding' (meaning I suppose 'old' sounding when it comes to dulcimers) has less to do with a specific tuning than with other factors.  Such other factors can include style of playing, physical characteristics of the instrument, and the repertoire of music being played.  

It is perhaps splitting hairs, but the practice of retuning to the various modes can facilitate playing in a drone style (thus DAA or DAG are quite useful, for example).  But I wouldn't go so far as to say it's the tuning that sounds traditional there...  I'd simply say the tuning might make it easier to play in the drone style... and most people feel the drone style definitely has an 'old' sound to it... you can describe the dronal sound as old, archaic, traditional, ...or whatever word you'd use there.

Strumelia's post of February 5, 2014 addresses this issue

http://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/why-i-like-daa-tuning.html

Richard, I find that "traditional" means different things to different people depending upon their knowledge of mountain dulcimer history. Many of the older instruction books used a 1 - 5 - 5 tuning and quite a few used CGG. In the area around Galax, VA a unison tuning was quite common and one could say traditional for that area. As Ralph Lee Smith says, when he asked an older Appalachian man how the dulcimer was tuned, the man replied you tune the thick string to a "good" note and the others in relation to it. I think that meant that the bass was tuned to a key to fit the player's voice and the drone and melody were tuned a fifth above that, but I didn't talk with the man. I think we should be less concerned about trying to emulate a "traditional" style and just play the way we enjoy playing.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song,"

I've been playing Noter & Drone for some 40 years.  I don't know who you've been talking to or where they got their information but what they seem to have been saying is completely at odds with all other knowledge about Modes and tunings that I've ever encountered -- and I read a LOT!!

You can play N&D in ANY, repeat ANY,  tuning and it is a "traditional" way to play.  You can play Fingerdance style in ANY tuning at it is also a "traditional" way to play.  Playing Chord-Melody style is not "traditional" it is a late 20th century (post 1950) invention.

DAA and other 1-5-5 tunings have ALWAYS been called Ionian Modal Tunings (well at least since the 1500s)

DAd and other 1-5-8 tunings have ALWAYS been called Mixolydian Modal Tunings (same disclaimer)

Both Ionian and Mixolydian are MAJOR scales, not minor scales.  However the Mixolydian scale's 7th note (the solfege note  we call "ti") is flattened from what that note would normally be (if that 7th note is supposed to be F# for example, it becomes an F).  This is what happens if you tune to DAd, for example, and play the Mixolydian scale -- which begins at the Open fret -- and have no 6+ fret on your dulcimer.   VERY few melodies which Europo-Americans have created in the last thousand years use a scale where the 7th note of that scale is flatted from its natural note.  A huge number of dulcimer tunes which are tabbed in DAd are not, in fact, Mixolydian/DAd tunes -- they do not have that 'flatted 7th note in them.

Players from the late 1800s through the 1960s often (but not always) tuned "Octave" or what we now call Galax tunings, NOT Ionian or Mixolydian tunings.  Octave tunings are things like Ddd or Ccc, Galax tunings are usually ddd or ccc.

"Traditional dulcimer sound" comes not from the tuning, but from the shallow/narrow bodies of 'traditional' dulcimers which have much less interior volume that a conventional modern dulcimer.  Modern dulcimers with a 27" VSL are roughly 2.25" deep x 7-8" wide x 31" long (minus the head);  a traditional dulcimer with the same VSL is roughly 1.25" deep, 6-7" wide and 28" long.  When tuned to the same tuning,  the lesser volume traditional instrument tends to give a more "high silvery" sound; where the modern dulcimer tends to produce a deeper more "mellow", sound.

At last I can help somebody !  I am in Wales and so is Robin Clark, a member here. Please look at his excellent videos on YouTube. They explain all you need to know and can be found by searching for Birdrock Dulcimers.

I prefer noter drone style of play and have thought for several years that the "most traditional" sound would be produced in 1-5-5 tuning. However in discussing this with a person who has played and built dulcimers for more than 30 years, I have been told that the most "traditional" sound has to come from DAdd tuning.

Also somewhere recently I have read that DAA is really a mixolydian tuning not ionian.  So I feel confused. Can one of the members here with more experience and knowledge help me understand this?

Thanks.

I also made a contribution.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Yeah -- I got the email from them too.  Hopefully things will be dried out when we get there.  I've sent a donation...

For those going to Hindman next month, you might be interest to know that there was severe flooding around the settlement school. Here is a link  Hindman Flooding  with a couple of photos and a link to donate to recovery efforts if you so choose.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Yeah -- I never had an FOTMD Button, but will scribble it on my (mandatory at these sorts of things) Name Tag.

Yes, a group photo!  

Maybe next year I can make it to Hindman.  

I never had a FOTMD button, but I think we will find each other. Let's try to remember to organize and take a group photo at least.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Don't forget to wear your FOTMD buttons if you have them!  

Looking forward to meeting all of the FOTMD family who can attend. Should be great fun.

Those two are our best Appalachian Ambassadors!  Highly respected on both sides of The Pond.  I hope to meet them some day.

Don, Ken steered you right with the link to the Farina book.  I've downloaded it a couple of times to make sure I had a copy.  Joan Baez's folk stuff will be found in a lot of books, I'd think.  You'd have to look for it by song title; some might be on the usual tab sites.  However, Dylan's stuff and Joan's original/modern songs would still be under copyright and might be hard to find.  I know Andy Beyer teaches a workshop on 60s folk songs (which I took) but I now have no idea which songs he covered.  LOL.  Oh, yeah, you might want to check out Ralph Lee Smith's books including the one on Greenwich Village Days (I think that's something like the title) for the folk songs which were common in the 60s folk revival.

I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago. He was very helpful and patient with a newcomer like me. I have also spoken with John Henry. He was great and the two of them have shown me what a friendly forum this is. 

Neal & Sally Hellman have this:  Richard Farina Dulcimer Book :  http://richardandmimi.com/dulcimerbook.html

I understand it can be downloaded for free (with Neal's permission) here:

   http://www.4shared.com/document/dlP-NY7 ... ER_BO.html

Five strings is not an uncommon arrangement; several builders make them.

Talk to Robin Clark at Birdrock Dulcimers there in Snowdonia.  He's building some instruments, and has a couple models made here in the US specifically for his shop.

We'll look forward to meeting you there.

Thanks Ken and Dan. Just wanted to know. I am planning to attend if all goes well.

Richard, I had a small stand for two years at Hindman. I am not vending this year. I sold books and accessories rather than instruments. I think those who did bring instruments the first year found that there was not much of an interest in buying dulcimers by participants. Maybe this year will be different.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

They are invited. I believe John is trying to go....

DAN

www.dulcimore.com

I have asked the seller and he says that he has no idea of the woods or the manufacturer. I thought that the five tuners might have been recognised by somebody. Now, I think I will buy a newly made one. I have been lucky enough to have spoken with two very knowledgeable members here and I am inclined to buy a dulcimer which has been specifically made for DAA tuning. I would keep my McSpadden in DAD. Two dulcimers is not too many, especially when most of you here seem to have about fifteen.

Does any one know if this event has dulcimer vendors?

Thanks

Nothing "wrong" with homemade as long as the fret spacing is accurate.  That could be an attempt to "bookmatch" planks on the back; but we normally do that with the splice down the center of the instrument, not off to the side.  It may be worth sending a question to the buyer, if there's time and the price is reasonable.

It could well be homemade and as has been already mentioned, there could be a crack in the back of it so I will not be bidding for it. Thank you.

It looks like a homemade instrument to me.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

There are no labels, unfortunately, and the item is for sale in the UK on eBay so I cannot tell if there are any cracks. 

No label inside the rear soundholes?  That's a real "generic" design; nothing really to distinguish it.  Is that a crack on the back, or a joint between two pieces?