Forum Activity for @skip

I usually use 26.5. I have a 22 1/4 that I play most of the time lately.

I've added frets to my dulcimers and some other folks dulcimers. So far the only difference I've noticed is in the appearance of the fret board, not in how they sound or look overall. All of them sound the same as they did before the added frets were installed. I don't play using a noter though and usully use hammer-on's instead of slides. So fo me adding frets is very much a personal preference. Besides you can always have some of each.😆

Just wondering, with all of the various sizes an styles of dulcimers out there, what is your favorite VSL / Finger Board length between bridge and nut?

I have been making 27 inchers and think I might try a 26.5 inch one on my new dulcimer (less finger stretching...)

Excellent point, Kevin.  Also, McCoy Tyner (jazz pianist) wrote a piece "Mode for Dulcimer."  In all the pictures I've been able to find of him playing a dulcimer it's one with no extra frets.  

Mountain dulcimer for me is my newest instrument.  Until then I played chromatic fretted instruments, guitar, banjo, mandolin, etc.  So my first thought when I got a dulcimer was that I would not find much versatility with it and would eventually want extra frets added.  But I've since come to the belief that it's diatonic for a reason.  It's a, dare I say, "simple" folk instrument created to be played by anybody.  Hence adding frets takes away from the simple folky charm of the instrument to the point where it won't be a dulcimer anymore.  Mine has no added frets and I don't miss the "missing" frets.  I work with it in the way it was intended as far as the fingerboard is concerned, capo, change tuning, etc.  Just sayin'.

A week ago my rt hand thumb hurt so bad I couldn't play.  It's mostly in the joint and meaty part of the thumb.  I could not hold a pick. No, I do not have a death grip on the pick.  So I did not play for about 5 days, did alternative heat and ice.  It's only so-so. I play for maybe 10 minutes a day.  But the thumb is still sore and I don't want to stress it anymore.

Anyone else have these issues and what suggestions do you have. Dulcinina

For the record, here's a top-side view of the dulcimer. I have no idea who built it, so if for some reason someone recognizes it, I'd appreciate a comment.

The yellow spots you see on the top side of the fretboard are tiny pieces of post-it notes I had in place at one point. 

 Dulcimer 1.jpg - 105KB

I prefer having a 1.5 and 6.5 fret but that's just me. But I will say that having someone other than the original builder might cause problems. Here's a close-up of the fretboard with fret 1 (left) and 1.5 (right). The other frets on the board resemble the fret on the left.

Another problem (perhaps) is that the luthier at the string shop said the 1.5 fret was installed too close to the 1 fret; it should have been closer to fret 2.

 Frest 1 and 1.5.jpg - 54KB

This thread is great! I can't wait to dig in!

Well, I hadn't intended to get involved in this new conversation, but....  here goes.

After playing for 4 months now only on dulcimers with no extra frets (not even a 6 1/2) I am more and more convinced they are not necessary.  In fact I even bought a used Jeremy Seeger just because it had no extra frets.  Just listen to Dan Evans and Robert Force and hear the creativity that comes from no extra frets.  Robert Force and Michael Rugg, do not re-tune but used DAd tuning. (Michael Rugg in an email to me in 2015 said he still prefers an instrument without a 6 1/2 fret.)  Dan Evans and Roger Nicholson do/did re-tune though playing mostly in DAA.  I do too, though I don't think I can put myself in their league.  I am enjoying the instrument as much or more than ever without extra frets.  As an aside, I am playing mainly on 3 strings now, as I only have one 4 independent string with no extra frets.  I think I can see 4 strings no extra frets would give more possibilities than 3 strings and extra frets.

George, Bear Meadow does indeed have a "removeable fret system" called Flexi -fret.  It does require installing a permanent small brass channel at each fret position, into which a fret is slide when required.  You router a 3/32" groove across the fretboard at the desired location, and install his special brass channel in that groove   So if you want/don't want say the 1+ fret, there will be a flush-mounted brass channel at that position, which does not interfere with fretting until a fret is slid into that location.  Chck Dwayne's website for pricing.

I had indeed at one point considered adding the extra frets to my "historic" dulcimers, a couple anyway. But in the end left them as is, The ones I added to after the fact were done by the original builders of the instrument as well, I still felt it may detract to have someone else add them. I also got luck and found a John Stockard original that he had added all the extra frets, ebony fret board etc.

 I also don't change out wood friction pegs either, and actually have come to appreciate them, (once I get the darned things tuned anyway)

 As of now, unless it is of historic value, I don't buy a dulcimer unless it does have the extra frets.

 Has anyone considered the "fret" that can be placed in those positions but removed as they are not permanent, thought I had heaard of something like that at one time, don't know what they are called, or perhaps it was just a "dulcimer dream".

 Bing Futch also has a short you-tube video on using a capo to change keys.  

Let me try that again with the link.

http://www.jcdulcimer.com/CapoesInstructions.pdf

Joe Collins has the following handout available for free online.  It may help you in understanding which keys are available with a capo.  I hope it is helpful.

I am someone who uses a 1+ fret everyday and wouldn't want to go without it. However, I agree fully with those who suggest that historic dulcimers should be left as is.  If you want to add a 1+ fret to a McSpadden that's a few years old, as George did, by all means, go ahead.  But if you have an older dulcimer without any extra frets, you might want to leave it as is and restore it rather than change it.  I don't think Ken's mustache on the Mona Lisa is an accurate image, but perhaps adding some enhanced coloring to the painting would be.  Either one would detract from the original rather than enhance it.

Dana, instead of trying to read and understand, just play and feel.  Play a simple song on your dulcimer. Then put the capo at the third fret and try to play it again. It will work, but you will be in a higher register.  Then, perhaps put the capo at the first fret and try again. It won't work.

In the same way that you need different fingering when you switch tunings, you need different fingerings when you use a capo, with the (partial) exceptions of the third and fourth frets.

Sometimes this stuff makes more sense when you play and get a feel for it rather than try to understand it first. And even if you decide you don't like playing with a capo, you should still have a feel for how it works.

Why would you want to know this?  

reason 1: Dulcimer players almost always play in D, but other folk musicians often play in C, G, and A as well.  If you are in a multi-instrument jam, you will want to know how to play in those keys as well. What if you're in a playing circle and someone calls out "Angelina Baker" in the key of G.  You could try to figure it out in your regular tuning, you could retune to DGD and try to figure it out there, or you could slap on the capo at the third fret and play the song exactly the way you played it before, but you will now be in the key of G, just like everyone else.

reason 2: Do you sing?  Despite what some people say about certain keys rather than others working for their voices, it is the tonal range of the melody that determines whether a tune fits your voice.  I can sing some songs in D.  Other's I can't for the life of me.  But if a song doesn't work for my voice in D, it probably will in G or A.  Truth be told, I have a baritone dulcimer that I tune to G or A, but if I'm not home and want to sing one of those songs, I just put the capo on 3 for G or 4 for A and I can sing the song.  Again, the fingering for the chords is the same that I would have used in D, but the capo puts me in a different key.  If I get a chance I'll put a video together to demonstrate this.

A while back I wrote this piece that I've attached called "Strumming in Various Keys out of a DAd Tuning."  I'm sure it was in response to a question here or one posed by my local dulcimer group, but I can't remember.  Maybe you'll find it helpful.

strumming in various keys out of DAd tuning.pdf - 22KB

You took the words right off my fingertips, Ken.  I was trying to compose a post saying the same thing basicley,  I'm in awe of your

'word smithy-ness'

HA!  This sounds great!  

UserNo4:  Post your photos in a discussion in the General Group, probably.

You touched on, not off, a deeply philosophical debate (not a religious debate)  There are indeed people who buy and collect truly old (pre-1960s), truly rare and collectible dulcimers because they are what they are: a piece of musical history. Those people look at their collection (and invite others to do so) as well as play them periodically -- in the manner intended by the original builder.  They want to keep the old dulcimers original, not "tart them up" with all sorts of modern innovations like geared tuners, extra frets, etc.

Then there are others who would buy the Mona Lisa and paint a mustache on her just because they think it looks, cool and hip and modern.

My feeling is that if you like the looks of an old collectible dulcimer, but want it to have all the modern bells and whistles, you (and the dulcimer community as a whole) would be better served by finding one of the many fine dulcimer builders here or elsewhere, and have a replica of the old instrument made with all those "mod-cons" like built in acoustic pickups, geared tuners, extra frets, etc.   The replica will probably cost the same or less as a collector's item, and being new construction will take the abuse of modern playing styles much better.

Uh-oh. I feel like I've touched off a religious debate. "Is it sacrilegious to add a fret to an old dulcimer?"

I can't see why you would buy a dulcimer just to admire it (and not play it the way you wish), but opinions differ.

Oh dear, now my head hurts. 

But....I do get what you are saying. It's just a lot to take in for someone who has never been taught this.

I printed off some of what we have talked about....and i intend to study it. But just a little at a time, as to not overwhelm.

I'll go back and reread what you are saying. I guess my initial question in the midst of my confusion (not utter, but mildly)...would be, so the reason I would want to know this is to somewhat play a song, with just the music and chords? 

You're close, Dana.  Before we get to capos, let me explain something that didn't occur to me until I had been playing a year or two.  

First, we call the open DAd (or DAA, but when we get to chords I'll be referring to DAd) as a D chord.  Technically, it is missing the 3rd, so it can be D major or D minor.  But if 0-0-0 is a D, then 1-1-1 is an E, 2-2-2 is an F#, 3-3-3 is a G, 4-4-4 is an A, 5-5-5 is a B, and so forth.  And again, those "chords" can be major or minor, so a 1-1-1 will be an E in one harmonic context and an Em in another.  The listeners' ears will fill in either the major or minor 3rd. But that principle alone will allow you to play all kinds of chords that you might not have thought possible.

Second, once we see that pattern, we can say that yes, when you put your capo at the first fret your open strings are in an E chord.  And if we were playing a guitar or banjo, that would be enough. We could move the capo to any position and play as though the capo weren't there, making wonderful music in any key.  But the dulcimer's diatonic fretboard means that even if our open strum is a given chord, we may nor may not be able to play a song we want because the frets are in different places.

However, there are two places the capo (mostly) works: the third fret for the key of G and the fourth fret for the key of A.  Play a simple song you know toward the nut.  Now put a capo on the third fret and play it again, using exactly the fingerings you are used to.  You will see that you are now playing the same song, but in a higher register and in a different key (G instead of D).  This will also work if you put the capo at the 4th fret, but you will have to be aware of the 6+ fret, which is now playing the role of the 1+ fret.  It is also fun to put the capo at other frets and see the sounds you get. For example, many songs that are played in a DAC tuning can be played instead with a capo at the first fret (I am not suggesting a capo is preferable here, just pointing out the similarity).

For another discussion here recently I made the following video to demonstrate how I use the capo:

Again, what makes this complicated, Dana, is that on a dulcimer with a diatonic fretboard, a capo not only changes the key but also the mode, so when the capo moves to different frets you cannot necessarily play the same song in  a different key.  You have to find a different song that fits the mode created by the new fret spacing.

As for chords, please refer to that transposition chart I posted in the other discussion.  IN the key of D, we use mainly the D, G, and A chords. When you put the capo at the third fret to play in G, you will be using the G, C, and D chords. However--and this is the beauty of the capo--you don't have to change fingerings. Just pretend you are playing in D, and your chords will magically be transformed (or transposed) to G, C, and D.  That is what my video linked to above tries to demonstrate.

In light of the recent fantastic conversation we just had about the chords, I wanted to speak about capos.

(Preface: I am 2 years in, play like a crazy woman time-wise, but have zero music theory knowledge so grace grace if this question makes you laugh.)

I was lying in bed early this morn, when suddenly I had an epiphany. If the  1 0 1 is an A chord, then if you place a capo on the 1st fret, are you now tuned to A? And if 0 1 3 is a G chord, when you place a capo on the third fret, are you now tuned to G?

Again, please don't laugh...I'm just now getting into this. If this is correct, then it would explain all the choices of chord for each A, G, D etc because you might be tuned into something where you need a higher fret. (Am I embarrassed at this point? Yes, yes as a matter of fact I am. But I feel safe here so yall go easy on me if this is not right. ) 

And...does anyone have a capo tuning chart that showed what key each capo creates?   

The comments here regarding a historical dulcimer make sense, however, what if you owned one of these and you truly wanted to use the dulcimer to its fullest and there's nary a song now that doesn't have the 6 1/2 fret? Personally, I wouldn't be able to play any of my favorites without that fret and I've bought two dulcimers without it. I added it to both and now enjoy them fully but truly do wonder, would anyone really be buying one to just hang on the wall...or, can you fully enjoy a dulcimer without the 6 1/2? 

My sister told me about a book called Dispatches From Pluto, by Richard Grant. The story of a Brit and a New Yorker who buy a Mississippi plantation and encounter southern culture for the first time. She said it was laugh out loud one of the best books she has read in ages.

I am going to be re-reading Murder on the Orient Express by Agatha Christie.  I saw the movie for the first time in a while a couple weeks ago and decided I would re-read the book.

Where's the best forum for that?

I have posted a top view in my user profile and am looking for a way to link to that.

Post a couple photos in a new discussion and maybe we can help identify the maker(s)

There's no indication on or in the instrument to tell me who made it. My mother gave it to me as a birthday gift two years ago, and I don't remember her telling me where she bought it. She died six months ago, and I have yet to find any records of it in her stuff. So the maker of the dulcimer is a mystery.

I agree with looking for the maker name and contacting them. I sent one back to McSpadden to add 1 1/2, 61/2, etc. they dressed the frets, replaced the strings for $100.00

 The other was easier, but I took my Bonnie Carol over to them, (they live close by), but because of no shipping, they did the same for less.

 And for me, it's not about how often you play using the 1 1/2 fret etc., but it's about when you want to!!

 "Dulcimer is the Voice of Angels"

 IMG_2131.jpg - 115KB

Ken, thanks for the reply. Yes, "dressing" is the word I was looking for. And yes, I think the fee would include dressing all the frets. The guy said it would probably be closer to $100 but he wanted to leave some room.

The string shop works mostly on guitars, though it builds mandolins and has repaired sitars and some other stuff. 

At this point, I will wait until I find someone who does a lot of work on dulcimers. I would like to get that 1.5 fret. 

How neat!!!

Hi userno4;  the price for adding a fret can vary widely as you've discovered.  The number of strings your dulcimer has doesn't matter, but who made them could.  

Do you really play that much using the 1+ fret???

Th "tinny" sound you were hearing was probably caused by that raised 1+ fret.  If he re-set the 1+ fret that probably fixed the problem.  A fret that floats can sometimes be re-set with a drop of superglue to hold it.  If it doesn't stay down, he's right that it would require removing and completely replacing the 1+ fret and at least dressing it down to the height of the other frets.

Your local "stringed instrument shop" likely didn't want to 'mess around' with a dulcimer; they aren't very common, the sh.op makes a lot more money working on guitars.  The $200 he's quoting you is for a complete fret job including dressing all the frets to the correct height, and is actually pretty reasonable, as that is not a simple job.

Measuring to the nearest 001 inch is overkill, as you can't cut wood that accurately!  $100 for a single fret installation is outrageous.  My advice is find a real dulcimer maker/luthier. If you know the maker(s) -- look inside the rear soundholes to find the maker's label -- that is the person/company most likely to "treat you right" when it comes to repairs.

I have a four-string dulcimer to which I'd like to add (or more accurately, have added) a 1.5 fret. 

I recall that some vendors at the only dulcimer festival I've been to (in Evart, Michigan) were adding frets for $15. So I thought, oh, great, this will be cheap.

Then I paid a visit to a local stringed instrument shop. First, I showed the guy my three-string dulcimer and asked him to fix a tinny noise I hear on the low notes. He pointed out that the 1.5 fret appeared to be an after-market job. The cut into the wood was not as smooth as it should be, and the fret had started to float up. He put the fret back down but said if it caused a problem again, he would have to ... oh great. Now I forget the verb. Bake it? Sand it? Whatever, I think it involves sanding down each of the frets. Total cost is about $200.

I show him the four-string dulcimer and asked about putting a 1.5 on there. He said it would be about $100 but could go to $200.

So .. .what's the price range for installing a fret? On the one hand, it looks like the after-market fret job (performed when and where I don't know) was substandard, and the guy talked about how hard it is to do things correctly. He said he should measure the place to 0.001 of an inch. Maybe it's gilding the lily?

I know that musical instruments can be expensive, but my (late) mother paid $300 for this four-string unit last year, and I didn't feel like paying $150 or so for a single fret, so I left.

Congratulations John Henry!

Thank you Ken.  The cradles that hold the dulcimer aren't exactly perfect so the instrument wobbles just a little when I play making a clunking noise.  The cork kinda helped that I think.

Looks good!  You don't really need the cork gasket though. 

I made a possum board using the lid of an old wooden violin case.  I cut and attached a couple pieces of wood to the ends to support the dulcimer and used pieces of cork gasket to pad them.  It works pretty well.  

 Photo04061809.jpg - 94KB