Forum Activity for @nate

If it sounds good with the VSL starting at the 0 fret, hypothetically the instrument should work fine with just the nails and no 'nut' as a spacer. If you would like the wood nut to be there for aesthetic reasons, you could reduce it's height and make nice deep grooves in the top where each of the strings sit and use it as a spacer. The grooves would serve to hold the melody and bass string in place and keep them from pulling toward the middle of the fretboard due to tension, since the tuning pegs are near to the middle of the headstock, and the strings will want to move in a straight line from the bridge toward their tuning pegs unless something holds them at the edges of the fretboard, the way the nails do, past the zero fret. Alternatively if the nails serve the purpose of spacing the strings well enough, you could even sand the nut so low that it doesnt touch the strings and is simply there for aesthetics if you wanted to.

Does anyone know how many dulcimers John Stockard built? I picked this one up and it is super nice to play and sounds amazing.

 djpitiis8secexsmeopy.jpeg - 29KB

Looks like it could have been an early John Stockard?  

( feel comfortable sanding the nut way down)

  There was another nut in the case, no slits. I sanded that one down, saving the wooden one till I would see if I could get it to work. Hey, Hey - right on from open string to the 7th YEA!!!! Off some up pass 14 but I don't go that hi & if I would - think I would just use a different dulcimer. I even sanded the top more rounded like Nate said, for better pressure on the string.

  I like the wood better, since I don't have anything else white but good for now. I will need to replace the strings, they got a work out today. I'm leaving the nails in since I would have small holes to fill and I don't want to change what the builder did too much. 

Thanks for all the help, I'm slow but learning much from y'all

m.

( the intonation is correct at the nut or at the zero fret)

Intonation is correct at the zero fret, not at the nut

Nate asks all the right questions here.  You might try simply removing the nut and allowing the zero fret to do what it's supposed to do.  Then you could check the intonation and the action.  If the dulcimer functions correctly, you can feel comfortable sanding the nut way down, since, as Nate says, it's only purpose is to space the strings correctly.

Well you could potentially put a sliver of wood, folded paper, or something else directly on top of the zero fret to raise it 1/16 of an inch or so but this would only be a temporary fix to the issue of the fret being too low and would lose some sound quality and volume, and would also most likely result in slightly too high of action on the first couple of frets.

With that being said I'm still not sure what to make about the interesting set up with the strings resting on the nut or 'spacer.' I call it a spacer because typically the zero fret would function as the 'nut' or the end of the scale length of the vibrating strings; the small piece of wood between the zero fret and the headstock just serves to hold the strings the correct distance apart. Since this dulcimer also has nails for this purpose and the strings were resting on the nut rather than the zero fret, this instrument is intriguing to me.

I'm really not sure why the spacer was so high or why it was backwards. Were you able to get the strings in solid contact with the zero fret or hesitant to sand that much off? 

Also have you checked whether the intonation is correct at the nut or at the zero fret, as skip suggested?

Can't wait to learn more!
-Nate

(the builder just shim something over the 0 fret)

What could act as a shim for over the 0 fret?

Could I maybe place something right in front of the 0 fret, creating another 0 - like the size of a tooth pic? I have sanded the nut but hesitant to sand anymore.

( found that how rounded off the side of the nut facing the headstock is can affect the pressure )

This was good info.

That video is super clear, isn't it?  By the way, that practice of using the same chord shape and moving it around the fretboard is what Joellen calls "parallel" chords. It is an easy approach to learn (well, the left hand is, anyway), since the fingers stay in the same shape and you just have to move them up and down the fretboard.

i’ve been reading a little bit and also watching a little bit and now have my dulcimer tuned to this tuning and I am working on this piece as a starting point to start learning my way around. Fun!

Wow this dulcimer leaves me curious about many things. The combination of a zero fret, nut, and nails to space the strings is very bizarre to me since the strings did not touch the zero fret and the nut was not spacing them. It seems like all the nut is really doing is preventing the strings from touching the zero fret. I would think having that big of an inaccuracy at the very beginning of the fretboard would change the vsl and ruin the intonation. Obviously this can be easily fixed by reducing the height of the nut with sanding, but it does make me wonder, did the builder just shim something over the 0 fret like you did the entire time they owned it, or has this instrument been out of tune its whole life?

By the way on the topic of the direction of the nut, I have found that how rounded off the side of the nut facing the headstock is can affect the pressure it puts on the string at its breakpoint. The more rounded it is, the better the pressure of the string is dispersed across it, however when you put the nut in backwards, this can put a lot of pressure on one single point where the string breaks away from the nut toward the headstock, which can affect tuning stability and cause more string breaks at this point.
I don't think it's the biggest deal ever, but when I tested this by putting new strings on a dulcimer and seeing how high I could tune it before the strings broke with different nut shapes, I found that a nut with a squared off side facing the headstock broke at that point at a much lower tension than a rounded off one.

Update:

I Always like making a new (for me) dulcimer mine. This one had the rounded-off plug of wood where a hole had been bored into the scroll (I think Patrick's grandfather just didn't finish this part) anyway, I didn't like the look of the plug. While thinking of what I can do -

I inserted a fleur de lis 

 inserted fleur de lis 01.jpg - 514KB

I beg to differ Bob. Aesthetically, it makes a difference. It just looks better when the rounded portion of the top faces away from the fret board. Also, it makes it easier to gauge the depth of the string slots for the strings to ride on that zero fret.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Ken Longfield: On that particular dulcimer, the nut is installed backwards.

Yes but it doesn't really matter since it has a Zero fret.

(may be a modified kit)

Interesting idea. 

(rounded-off plug of wood was glued )

What would be the idea to 'bored in the scroll' only to glue a plug of wood (not something more decorative)? An idea starts but then changes needed? Maybe he was thinking of carving something but time ran out & just glued till he could get around to carving the plug.

  How ever this grandfather built the dulcimer - kit or not, he did well. I'm still thinking the high action and the 3 strings close together, he had to be using a noter.

thanks again,

m

It's not necessarily a kit. It may be a modified kit, made from scratch or with made from a variety of purchased parts.

( large hole was bored in the scroll, and a rounded-off plug of wood was glued into it.)

yes, but not all the way through - Do kits do the scallop raised fretboards? Lots different from a regular kit.

(eliminated the nails)

I think the nails were there to hold the 3 strings close together the 2 melody & the middle string -  maybe for playing with a noter. The Bass was where it belonged. 

Nice catch, @ken-longfield! I guess they don't call you "eagle eyes" for nothing!

That scroll design is unique in my experience.  Looks as if a large hole was bored in the scroll, and a rounded-off plug of wood was glued into it.

(the nut is installed backwards) Not sure Ken if you meant besides sanding to also turn the nut around or switch out with the bottom bridge but I did turn it around and those two things seems to take care of  things. 

Thanks again guys,

m

Still the mystery of the kit, it does seem to have the leaves of Cripple Creek and the same nut & bridge but not the head scroll (circle on the sides - different) or the raised fretboard, or wooden knobs - hmmm

As far as I am concerned, there is no difference between a dulcimore and a dulcimer. They are different names for the same instrument. C.N. Prichard call the instruments he manufactured "The American Dulcimer." J. E. Thomas called the instrument he made a dulcimer. As to where the name originated, it is anybody's guess. One theory is that mountaineers familiar with the King James Bible new the list of instruments in Daniel. One instrument on that list was dulcimer. Since no one knew what a dulcimer was, they adopted the name for their instrument. (Biblical scholars think the instrument called "dulcimer" is really a reed instrument like a clarinet.) Strumelia already mention that the name may have derived from the Latin for sweet (dulce) and the Greek for sound or song (Melos). Who knows for sure? Pretty much all of the early scholarly literature and much of popular literature refers to the instrument as "dulcimer."

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

"Dulce melos" is French with Greek/Latin roots, meaning "sweet song".  There was an old key-hammered zither called a dulce-melos or douchmelle in the 15th century.  

IIRC, "dulcimer" came to prominence in the King James Bible translation where it was incorrectly used as a term for a wind instrument. Also found (again mis-used) in the Samuel Taylor Coleridge poem Kubla Khan -- "In Xanadu did Kubla Khan a stately pleasure dome decree...

Dan Cox has been the leader in assigning the term dulcimore (I spell it dulcemore just to be contrary) to those Appalachian fretted zithers built originally prior to the Dulcimer Revival -- in particular those instruments detailed in L. Allen Smith's  landmark thesis and book A Catalogue of Pre-Revival Appalachian Dulcimers

On that particular dulcimer, the nut is installed backwards. When it was built slots.should have been cut in the nut to space the strings. That would have eliminated the nails. I would sand down the bottom of the nut so that it is not so high and cut slots in the nut. You want the slots deep enough for the strings to ride on top of the zero fret.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

I think I would check the tuning before doing anything. Check using the 0 fret as the starting point then using the nut as the starting point. The frets should only be correct using one or the other. There is a significant difference in string length there. It may have been set up to use a slide, as in dobro style

Marg, I'll let the builders answer that question.  I would think that if the distance between the 0 fret and all the strings were the same, you might consider sanding the bottom of the nut.  But if that distance varies, you might also need to deepen the slits.

The good news is that you don't have to be so precise to the left of the 0 fret. If the frets (including the 0) are set up correctly, they should come off the 0 fret and the action and intonation should be good.

(the strings should touch the 0 fret)

Would I slit the nut or sand the bottom to lower it so the strings touch the 0 fret? I'm better at sanding some off the bottom, don't that.

Thanks Dusty,

Yes Cedar Creek, cripple Creek but the head scroll is different & it has the raised scallop fret board. 

Don't need who made the dulcimer but what kit it's may be from - and back in the 90's if that is different then kits now.

I can't help identify the maker of the kit, but I would bet those little nails by the nut are to help space the strings appropriately, since the can come in at any number of angles off the tuners.

Yes, the strings should touch the 0 fret.  The strings should vibrating between the 0 fret and the bridge.  There should be no space between the strings and the 0 fret.

I've seen those leaves and hummingbirds on several dulcimers, not just Cedar Creek.  It looks nice in general.

Someone's grandfather made this dulcimer sometime maybe in the 90's from a kit.      Can anyone tell who's kit it's made from? The case has a McSpadden sticker on it but that doesn't necessary mean it's their kit. Also there are leaves & hummingbird more like Cedar Creek.  Lots of photos and a raised scallop fret board - hope these clues help.

Questions also:

Why are there little nails to hold the strings in place up at nut?

The strings coming off of the nut, are they suppose to ride over the 0 fret (touch or above)? Maybe the slits were not cut into the nut - therefore high action and off a bit up at the 6+ fret. (I place a small stick under the strings up at 0 fret - that helps the tuning up the fret board - so maybe I just need the strings to ride over the 0 fret?)

 IMG_20210726_174646412_HDR_2.jpg - 385KB

Hear, hear!  Bravo, Dan!

The Latin root 'dulci' means sweet. Nobody knows who exactly invented the words dulcimer or dulcimore. It goes far back in time, to medieval references to hammered dulcimers. 'Dulcimore' is simply one of various old fashioned variations of names for the same or similar instruments.

Right, Dan! So many quaint old names for mountain dulcimers were in use years ago in the US.   Indian walking stick, dulcerine, duck slammer, even sometimes just called a Music Box.
I first noticed the particular name 'dulcimore' being used much more frequently by Dan Cox just a few years ago. Before that (for the 30 years i have studied and discussed dulcimers), we all simply talked about 'traditional mountain dulcimers' and 'modern dulcimers'. 'Dulcimore' rarely came up except in online conversations where we were listing quaint old fashioned historic or regional names for our instrument.
Whether Dan intended it or not, I consider him to have spearheaded a movement where now it seems to be pretty much standard procedure to refer to traditional mountain dulcimers as 'dulcimores'.  Since it's handy to use as a shorter name than constantly saying or writing 'traditional dulcimer', and has a lilting quality, I'm all for making things simpler when discussing our favorite instrument.  But I do think that Dan deserves the credit for 'reviving' the name 'dulcimore' into now common usage and understanding.

It's what you were referring to when you said: "...that I could just count up a few frets to make that tab work"

(The +3 tab conversion really works best)  Sorry, but what does that mean?

Use a DAd tab & count up 3 frets on melody? So, if it's a 2 I would play a 5? Same as a DAA tab

or - use a DAA tab & count up 3 frets, so a 3 I would play on a 6?

1)  No- the standard 'reverse tuning' of DAA would be ADA... reversing the middle and bass strings, NOT doing anything to the melody string. In both DAA and ADA, your tonic note would still be the note of D. (found on one of the drone strings and on the melody string at 3rd fret.)

2)  I don't know what you consider to 'standard tab'... for what tuning? 
Easiest way to test all this: Play it while doing your counting up thing and see if it sounds right, and if you have all the notes you need for the tune. My bet is that it won't translate well if you are fretting on all strings and chording. If that's the case, then retuning to an optimal tuning for the tune and the tab will be the easiest solution.

The +3 tab conversion really works best if you only or mostly play/fret on the melody string (drone style playing). It's more complicated when you fret notes on all strings and/or play chords. You can try it, but I have no idea how it'll sound.

A tuning can often play tunes in more than 1 mode. That's why we are not technically correct in saying "dorian tuning" for instance. What I try to say these days, which is more correct, is that "this tuning is great for playing dorian tunes". The purpose of 'tunings' is to make it easier to play various kinds of tunes. A particular tune might be easier to play in DAG than DAC, for example. You'd have all the notes you need in places that are easily available depending on your style of playing. This is particularly important on non-chromatic instruments like the dulcimer, which is typically 'missing' certain frets.

Hope this helps!

Strumelia,

Looking at your Noter & Drone Blog - Lots of info - could reversing tuning of DAA be the same as AAd 

(Tonic/home note which is on fret #4.) means d is 4 up from A - I still don't understand whats standard tab i have that I could just count up a few frets to make that tab work

Hi

I just ran across a tab (from Carolyn Brodgnisku 'St. Kilba's Lullaby' playing with 'Send in the Music') I tuned to this and tried it out, easy to tune my bass down to 'A. It did sound like bagpipe tuning. 

I usually play melody/chord in DAd/DAA/DGd/CGc etc.. Lately I have been learning how to strum down & much on the melody in AEA (the 50yr. old red dulcimer, I just finished working on) 

As I was just starting to try different tabs, I played a DAA tab on the bass string & again on the middle. 

(Tonic/home note which is on fret #4.)   If I can take my DAd tab & count up 3 & turn it into a DAA tab - does this mean I would count up to 4 for this tuning and would I need to play on the A string, or could I play on the d string?

(dorian tunes) Is that what this tuning is - Dorian?

Thanks, Strumelia - I love how I keep discovering new ways in playing the dulcimer

@carla-maxwell & @ocean-daughter If the weather's fit, we'll all be able to play a tune or two outdoors!  

For the places on Earth with drought and fire/threat of fire now I hope they get the opportunity to be playing indoors on a rainy (not flooding) day.  

Happy strumming, friends!  

Marg that appears to me to be a tuning one would use to play in the lonesome-sounding Dorian mode.

Are you playing the melody on the melody (d) string when in that tuning? And... are you playing in chording style, or in drone style? (drone style meaning you are not fretting the middle or bass string). 
I do have a couple of tabs on my noter drone blog for dorian tunes.  Basically, it's like playing in aeolian except further up the fretboard, and thus you have several extra available notes below the Tonic/home note which is on fret #4.