Forum Activity for @jill-geary

Hi John, Have you posted the video yet? Thanks for the info! p.s. I too have arthritis - really difficult to do big stretches for chords - but the good news is that I really enjoy noter/drone playing!

It's indeed a striking collaboration.  Thanks for sharing this, Robin.

For those who like enjoy this kind of east-west mashup, you might be interested in the recent Smithsonian Folkways album by Wu Fei and Abigail Washburn and produced by Bela Fleck.  Here is a live performance of one of the tunes, which has no dulcimer, unfortunately, but some wonderful singing as well as soothing banjo and guzheng:

Ok, now let's see what string gauges you might need on a 26" vsl dulcimer , for a 1-5-5 tuning for playing in the keys of A and G . (btw a 26" scale is very versatile length for various tunings, but we're sticking with 1-5-5 here)

TrailDad, we know you want a 1-5-5 tuning for the key of A, which would be Aee. On the piano chart I linked to in the last post, you'll see that those two high E notes are one step higher than the standard melody string (d) of the most common dulcimer tuning, DAd. On the piano chart, that high d is the very next key higher than middle C4, and it's shown as the 4th octave on the piano chart, D4. So, for your AEE tuning (or Aee if you want to be perfectly correct), those two strings would be tuned to E4. You always go LOWER for the bass string, so the A note lower than E4 is A3. Thus, your 1-5-5 tuning for key of A will be A3-E4-E4.

Let's see what the Strothers calculator suggests for those notes on a 26" scale.
It suggests a .014 string for the Bass/A string, and a .009 string for the two high e strings. 
However, you also know that you'll be wanting to retune all those strings DOWN ONE STEP to play in the key of G, 1-5-5, which is Gdd (G3-D4-D4). For GDD on a 26" dulcimer, the calculator recommends strings of .015, .010 and .010.

I would recommend the more robust set of .015, .010, and .010 for retuning between AEE and GDD in this situation. I've used .009 for high melody strings and have not liked them- I find them so thin they are both unpleasant to play on and they kink and break too easily. Using .010 gives a good feel and the strings will last longer. As to the .015 bass string for the tonic notes A or G, yes that seems pretty thin and indeed it may be a plain unwound steel string, but remember you are tuning to A3 not A2. You are tuning your bass string to the A3 note that is the SAME note as the middle string in the standard DAd tuning. So yes, it's going to need to be thinner than the average bass string.
Now if you wanted to experiment and use the A2 in the octave BELOW the usual D3 bass string in DAd, then you'd need quite a heavy bass string to avoid floppiness on a 26" dulcimer. The calculator calls for a .027 wound string for that A2 note (which they label as A'). That would make it so your two e strings were a 12th up from the tonic A rather than the usual 5th up. Could sound cool, but a bit less traditional. You might also need to widen your slots for a .027 wound string.
Incidentally here's where a "false nut" capo would enable you to put a more normal gauge bass string and work around this. Avoiding odd gauge strings is why people use various tunings and also capos.

So, on a 26" dulcimer vsl, using tunings of 1-5-5 only: 

Key of A:  A3-E4-E4
Key of G: G3-D4-D4
Both tunings could be achieved by using strings: .015, .010, and .010

I'm happy you enjoyed the video, Nina!  

That was incredible.  Thanks for posting it. Nina

I'm close to finishing an 'experiment'; building two identical dulcimers with the exception of the shape of the body.  They are even out of the same board. The reason is to see if I can hear a significant tone difference. I'll post results and pictures when finished.

@bob I believe I've seen where some other builders made that same move.  I imagine it will feel nice to build on your own timetable.    

I have hit the "Pause Button" on building commissioned dulcimers. Over two years without a break in building special orders is a long run. It's very fulfilling but also rather stressful.

I will however be building mountain dulcimers and scheitholts of my own specs for general sales for a while. It feels refreshing!

@Ariane I am eager to hear what y'all have come up with!  Such a wonderful project!  

I'd like to backtrack a bit and try a different approach. TrailDad, I do understand your question. You want to use two different sized just-tempered dulcimers to tune to the four common keys while sticking to only 1-5-5 tuning. I suspect the reason you want to stay with 1-5-5 is because that's the one tuning that your just-tempered instruments will sound 'sweet' in. Switch them to a 1-5-8 tuning for example will sound a bit sour, unless it's an equal tempered instrument. But rather than suggesting you explore a different temperament or vsl or different tuning or gauges, let's try to respond to your exact question and see where we get.  :)

Ok, so let's start with assuming you are going to use the standard string setup of having a lower tonic-tuned bass string (that's what 1-5-5 indicates, after all). For ease of understanding, let's also start with the most often used 1-5-5 tuning: DAA, for the key of D . 

Let's look at a visual chart of the numbered octaves on the piano, which will help us all stay on the same page:

piano octaves, numbered

There, we see that the heavy wound bass string tuned to D would be D3 on the chart.. the D below middle C. The A of the two other strings that are tuned just a 5th above that low D is A3 (still below middle C). So the typical 1-5-5 tuning for key of D is D3-A3-A3 on the piano.

========================

What gauge strings to use for that D3-A3-A3 tuning on a 30" vsl dulcimer?  The Strothers calculator tends very slightly towards light gauge recommendations, so if the note you want is between two, choose the heavier option. (Don't just automatically choose a heavier string than the Calculator says.) The Strothers calculator for that DAA tuning on a 30" scale suggests .018 for the bass string and .012 for the other two strings. Now, .018 normally seems pretty light for a wound bass string, but then 30" is a pretty long vsl, so let's continue for a moment...

Now, let's assume you will use the SAME dulcimer to play in C which is only one step down on all strings and is easy to retune to... from DAA to CGG. Looking at the piano chart, you know you will be going DOWN just one step on all strings from D3-A3-A3 to --> C3-G3-G3, and you don't want the strings to feel too floppy. That C3-G3-G3/key of C tuning on the Strothers suggests: a .020 for the bass/C string, and .013 for the other two G strings. Keeping in mind that the Calculator may run a little too light with its suggestions, in this instance between the key of D and the key of C suggestions, we'd choose the slightly heavier option- the key of C suggestions for gauges, to ensure no slack strings. They'd certainly not be so heavy as to break when tuning up one step from CGG to to DAA. 

So, for the 30" dulcimer, we'd choose the bass string to be a .020 wound string, and the other two strings to be .013 plain (unwound).  That should enable you to tune 1-5-5 on a 30"vsl dulcimer for the keys of both D and C .

I'll examine the same issue but for a slightly shorter dulcimer instead, for the keys of G and A, in my next post but I have some work to do on a job right now and will try to get to it within a few hours.  Hope that helps a little?

You're most welcome, Nina!  It can be fun just learning bits here and there of our favorite little instrument.  :)

I am working on new online project called: "Good Wish Song 2021"

In the relevant dulcimer facebook groups I have posted the following beginning of January:

The idea of this composition will be an encouraging and bolster (I hope that this is the right word) song for 2021

----------------------------

Within a short time the participant's list has increased to 12 and after I had received all twelve 2 bar-compositions I started to puzzle them together so that a nice melody came out.

I have set up a project chat group and it was a delight to see the lively discussion and brain storming regarding the initial arrangement...some wanted to add chords, some an intro and outro, some to reduce the tempo.

Two days ago Ron Zuckerman has written down all agreed additional wishes/suggestions in a new sheet music and made an orientation recording so that the recording phase for the group could start.

Today I already could place 3 dulcimer recordings as well as 2 vocal recordings into my DAW where I will do the final mixing...and what can I say...it already sounds so beautiful!

I will post the final video here and would be happy if you are looking forward to it as I do

@dulcinina I listened to the interview yesterday evening-- so good!  And just watched this YT video (of a song I have from one of their cd's):

@Traildad, you are making a false assumption that a note using an upper case letter always refers to a note below middle C.  I tune my baritone dulcimer GDg. All of those notes are below middle C.  I use the lower case g to indicate that the string is an octave above the bass string. I also have an octave baritone dulcimer, meaning it is tuned an octave above that baritone, and I still indicate the tuning as GDg even though only the low G is below middle C and the D and high g are above it.  I also have octave dulcimers that I often tune DAd, but all those notes are above middle C.

In other words, the use of the upper and lower case letters shows how the notes relate to each other, not how they relate to some objective standard like a piano.

There are ways to indicate exactly which octave on the piano a given tone is from, but almost none of us bother with that.

Strumelia's blog was not specifically about string gauge, but she does mention that she stopped using a wound bass string and only used string gauges around .10 or .11.  The blog post is about how she gets to the main 4 keys of C, D, G, and A with two dulcimers, one that can tune to C and D and one that can tune to G and A.

If all you want to know is what octaves one uses for 1-5-5 tunings in those four keys . . .

C-G-G would usually be C3-G3-G3

D-A-A would usually be D3-A3-A3

G-D-D would be either G2-D3-D3 (as a baritone) or G3-D4-D4 (as a 3/4-size instrument like a Ginger)

A-E-E would be either A2-E3-E3 (as a baritone) or A3-E4-E4 (as a 3/4-size instrument)

Of all those notes, only the D4 and E4 are above middle C.

I’m working on getting two just intonation dulcimers. Unfortunately one of them had a major fret placement defect and was unplayable. Hopefully I can get it replaced and I’ll be able to change keys like I want without restringing. 

@Strumelia I went back and reviewed the blog posts

https://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.com/2009/03/tunings-i-mostly-use.html

https://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.com/2009/02/here-is-simple-diagram-i-made-up-to.html

and your response to Ron dated 2/24/2009.

Many times in both blog posts and your response to Ron you refer to the tunings DAA, CGC, CGG, EAE, DGD, CCG, AEE, GDD all to describe tuning in the keys of A,C,D and G. Nowhere do you mention a galax or the special tuning you now refer to with the .010 strings. I will admit that my question “ I’m trying to figure out which octaves all the notes are for each key.” could have included more detail. But the question is pretty straightforward and all the tunings are standard tunings and to my knowledge have nothing to do with the specialized galax tuning. I would hope it was clear that my question was about the different tunings you referred to in your blog. I still don’t understand why your answer was about string size instead of what octaves the notes are in. It is possible that the octaves are notated correctly and all strings are tuned below middle c. I am still trying to get what I thought was a simple question answered. I am sorry that I make you pull your hair out. 

Thing to watch out with Sniff.numachi is that most often their tab is listed "backwards" by modern standards -- they list DAA for example as AAD, which gets lots of new players in trouble...   Try www.Contemplator.com for those kinds of tunes.

Thanks, Nina-- I'll have to check it out! 

Jeff Berman & Sue Powers played a little outdoor show with another group of which the are a part, Devilish Merry, in '19 and I got to see them in that yet would also love to see AppalAsia 'live', too.

Hi Robin, There is an interview of the group AppalAsia on Hearts of the Dulcimer Podcast.  It's episode #021.  Nina

I try to play Cam Ye O'er Frae France on dulcimer. I discovered a site which has a kind of tab (although it's auto generated thus might be wrong): http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiCAMFRANC;ttCAMFRANC.html

Nontheless the tune sounds good, but I need practice, practice, pratice :)

Hi Ken

Thanks for all the helpful information. The pictures you posted do look remarkably similar to my device. The only difference is the bridge arrangement.

Thanks to you and everyone for your replies. I think judging from the amount of dust I extracted from the sound box Lisa is right about the vintage !!

I just watched this video from AppalAsia this morning and like it very much.  

Trapezoid shaped dulcimers dulcimers have been made for decades, though they're not as commonly produced as curve sided dulcimers. If I had to guess, Mick's used homemade dulcimer looks to be maybe from the 1970s or 80s. Yes Robin Clark made a few box dulcimers, but only within the past several years.

Didn't Robin Clark up in Wales do some trapezoid dulcimers?

Mick, here is a link to article by Jerry Rockwell on the Bear Meadows Dulcimer site: https://www.bearmeadow.com/smi/rockwell.htm  . If you scroll down to near the end of the article, there information about tuning.

I hope this helps you.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

In a book by Reader's Digest many years ago there were plans for a dulcimer similar to your. The book is titled Back to Basics. Here is a phot of the article and a photo of a similar dulcimer.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

 WP_20160410_15_24_19_Pro.jpg - 139KB

Thanks Strumela for the comment. Well I never thought I'd find a used Appalachian dulcimer on my doorstop. Only cost a few pounds as well.

Appreciate the insights

Regards

Mick

One of the defining features of a mountain dulcimer is that it has a raised fret board that runs down the middle of the body. Epinettes, scheitholts, langeliks, langspils, and hummels (all of which are considered to be more or less ancestors of the American mtn dulcimer) all have frets and/or raised fret boards that run along one side/edge of the instrument, the side nearest the player. 
I agree with Ken L that this is technically an Appalachian dulcimer. This trapezoidal shape has been used on other mtn dulcimers, btw.

Hi Josh

Thanks for the link. I had wondered about those as well, but so difficult to be certain.

Regards

Mick

Hi Ken

Thank you so much for the comment. I am surprised , but I'm old enough to appreciate experience. Thats wonderful and I'll tidy it up and restring it. I may even try to record it and see what you think.

Regards

Mick

The look reminds me on epinettes but since they are basically in the same class as dulcimers that doesn't need to mean anything: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epinette_des_Vosges

Hi, Mick. I knew you are in the UK. You have a 5 string dulcimer then. They are usually strung as a doubled melody (strings closest to you), a single middle string, and a doubled bass with doubles an octave apart. There are many mountain dulcimers built in the shape of yours. The instrument is diatonically fretted; no 6 1/2 fret.  For a 23 inch VSL I recommend 0.012 size string for d, 0.016 for A, and 0.024 for the bass D. You can string it as a 3 string dulcimer by leaving off one string each of the pairs. I don't know what tuning you plan to use or how you plan to play, but here are some possible tunings. 

D,d A d,d

D,D A A.A

Of course you can also tune to G using C and G as the notes.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Hi Ken ,Thanks for prompt response, but I perhaps should add a bit more info as my picture doesn't show the full story. I should have noticed that before. There are a further 2 tuning pegs on the other side of the headstock. So its 5 strings. The fretboard doesn't go the full length of the body. The total length is 29 inches and the depth of the fretboard is a quarter of an inch.

The body is slightly triangular in shape. Nut to bridge is 23 inches.

I'm too new to be categoric but I don't think its an Appalachian dulcimer. Maybe I should add I'm in the UK so it might be European.

Regards

Mick

Mick, you have a mountain or Appalachian dulcimer. It looks like it is a three string model. It should be strung with bass string (wound) in the slot farthest from the player. A string in the middle of the fret board and either a single or double string in the slots closest to the player. Standard tunings are DAdd or DAA.

To determine what string should be on your dulcimer we need to know the vibrating string length (VSL). This is the distance from the inside of the nut (fret board side) to where the strings first touch the bridge.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

  I have attached a photo which I hope illustrates an instrument I picked up in a local secondhand shop. As you can see the fretboard is in the centre. It has 19 frets with a single string in the middle with pairs spaced away from it on either side. One string in the right hand pair is wound the rest are single steel wires.

I will give you the note readings on the middle string which I tuned to an open D.

So at first fret E then F, F#,G,G#,A,B,C,C#,D,E,F#,G,G#,A,B,C#,D,E The bridge sits a little high so the strings slope over the fret board rather than parallel, but I assume this was not intended. 

Does anyone know what it is ? I thought it could be an Epinette or Scheitholt but it doesn't seem to fall into what I would expect

Any guesses would help !!!

Thanks

Mick

I had mentioned in the 2nd post I was trying to figure this for 155 tunings so I wasn’t sure if you were saying that’s what yours was. I had tried to ask about 155 tunings in an earlier thread but I messed it up. When I’ve got both dulcimers with the proper strings gauges in front of me I’ll explore that subject. I figure it will be easier when I can actually tune the dulcimers rather than just talk about it. 

Since we are talking also about avoiding breaking strings...
One other point I'd like to make is that although I might be able to use just one dulcimer to retune into four different keys, especially if it's a middling scale length and using correct string gauge to do that...  even though I 'could' tune to all four keys with the same strings without breaking them, the mere strain of tuning up and down frequently between tunings for the keys of G and D (a whole three and a half steps between G and D) can be enough to very much shorten the normal life of a string.

I remember walking around oldtime music festivals with one dulcimer, joining in on one jam session after another, and retuning back and forth between the keys of G, A, C, and D every hour or two depending on what folks were playing. A whole day and evening of doing this often was too much for my strings and one or even two of them would snap at some point. Not because I was tuning the string too high (because i had no problems while at home where I changed tunings much less often), but because I was going back and forth 3.5 steps too many times and creating metal fatigue.
People who play dulcimer in jam sessions with players of other instruments need to be able to change key fairly often. So this is another reason for a noter player to use two dulcimers in jamming situations.. at least it was for me. Chord players who use capos or fingering notes on various strings can avoid some of these issues- they are able to utilize more ways to play in different keys without so much retuning.

Again, for active festival or gathering jamming scenes where I want to play only dulcimer, i use one dulcimer for the keys of G and A, and the other dulcimer for the keys of C and D. Other folks have cool ways of avoiding snapping strings by using 'reverse' tunings or capos and under-string capos (sometimes called false nuts). 
Robin's mentioned EAA tuning is an example of such a reverse tuning for playing in the key of A, in mixolydian mode. It's a 5-1-1 tuning, and can be great for playing in mixolydian mode rather than ionian. Her tuning neatly avoids breaking strings because she can simply tune DAA and put a false nut capo under the bass string at fret 1 and then play in A. (her middle string then becomes the tonic drone, and the bass string capoed becomes the "5th", and the melody string is tuned to the tonic note).
There are lots of cool ways to be able to play in various keys- using string gauges, capos and false nuts, reverse tunings, tuning to a different mode, using extra frets, or using more than one instrument and/or different VSL lengths. Understanding all of these different methods is a process that usually involves years of playing and endless 'lightbulb moments'.   I'm certainly still in that process myself. (may we never stop learning!)

Believe me it's an awful sinking feeling when you are having great fun playing at a campsite jam at 1am and suddenly a string snaps and you have to trudge off somewhere far away to find a place with enough light to be able to change a string because the night is still young! Not easy to change a string at night by flashlight, not having three hands.  ;)  BTW other times I sometimes opted to bring one dulcimer for the keys of C and D jamming, and a banjo for the keys of A and G. The banjo is always heavier to haul around at a festival, though.

@traildad No, EAA is not 1-5-5.  DAA is 1-5-5.

I'm not the best person to explain this because I am, really, a by-ear player.  Here goes, though.  DAA is 1-5-5 and I will try to demonstrate how this is.  To visualize it, hold your hand in front of you, palm side up.  Consider your thumb as representing D then think of your index finger as E, your middle finger as F-sharp, your ring finger as G, and your little finger as A.  The D you started with (your thumb) is 1.  Counting across your fingers in the order stated above, you arrive at your little finger, A, which is 5.