Forum Activity for @strumelia

I see where the confusion is coming from. TrailDad, you've been quoting from this 2009 blog post I wrote in my noter drone blog:

https://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.com/2009/03/tunings-i-mostly-use.html

If everyone reads the entire blog post I wrote, and also the various comments between TrailDad and myself at the end of that blog post, it will be clear that some of this confusion (again) is coming from the fact that I typically use all .010 gauge strings on my oldtime session dulcimers, and thus the AEE and the GDD tunings I am describing there are all in the high octave (like with my Galax dulcimer)- with no heavy bass string and no middle gauge middle string. If one reads my entire noter blog post linked above (plus the Comments at the end of it from a month ago, where TrailDad asks these very questions and I answered them), most of the confusion in this thread could be avoided.

Personally, I would not recommend a 30" scale dulcimer in order to use these tunings, even with all .010 strings. It could well work just fine, but it's pretty long IMHO and the strings might be real tight. A different approach might be called for at 30". In my blog post I describe my 28.5" and my 26.5" dulcimers I use for these tunings. The tunings TrailDad has laid out in his previous post are the tunings from my blog post but they are tunings I use with all .010 strings tuned in the higher octave , on the two VSLs I've given. (btw if i had a 30" dulcimer I would probably just lower whatever tuning i was using by one whole step to the next lower key, if I was just playing alone at home).

In my blog I've written extensively about having ditched my bass string for oldtime fiddle session playing and gone with all high octave light gauge strings, but when my specifics are taken out of their blog context, people naturally assume the tunings I wrote about are to be used with the usual heavy wound bass string and a medium thick middle string most dulcimers use. Then they start using the string gauge calculator based on that assumption... and up come various dilemmas concerning the tunings and the vsl and and the gauges. This is a good example of why it's problematic to quote 'articles' (i.e. blog posts) out of context without identifying where the information is coming from. It's also one of the problems with blogs- because they are a continuous string of related posts, and in many blogs each post builds upon what has come before it.

If one goes back to read my blog post from 2009 , there are no tuning challenges such as those we are trying to solve here. The confusion comes simply by trying to apply my "all high octave gauge strings" tunings to dulcimers with typical low/middle/high gauge string setups. It's like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole. Hence the subsequent talk of baritone dulcimers (tuned a whole octave down from what I described in my blog) by folks trying to be helpful, to solve this 'tuning dilemma'.

My advice is that if one is going to use the typical string setup of a heavy wound bass string, a middle gauge middle string, and a thin gauge melody string(s)... and i think it's a great standard system... then don't try to apply the same tunings i suggested for using with all .010 strings- it won't work well. Probably better to use tunings and/or gauges that are more normally used for the keys of A and G. It's better to figure out WHY you want or need to play in particular key or tuning rather than assuming you need to play in it.  My advice: pick a few tunes, figure out what key you want to play them in, then figure out the tuning method you want to use to tune for those tunes. Trying to understand and anticipate all situations before one encounters them is a difficult and frustrating path.

All this said, several good players have now mentioned that having only two dulcimers in slightly different vsl length can enable you to playing in the four most common keys pretty easily without lots of retuning (and without constantly changing strings). Others can do it with just one dulcimer, especially if they use either a 'reverse' tuning, OR a capo or under-string "false nut" capo to raise the bass string without breaking it, like Robin Thompson does- watch her videos for tips on that- and she's a very creative and expressive player.  :)  Hope this helps.

p.s. TrailDad thank you for pointing out that typo in my blog post- I went back and corrected it- you were right about that!

Would this be considered a 155 tuning?

What exact pitch to tune the strings to for each of the four (C,D,A,G) 155 tunings is a whole other subject. I missed the mark when I asked that question before. The topic thread went awry and I dropped out. I figure I can try again when I have dulcimers in front of me with the correct string gauges so I can learn hands on rather than theory so to speak. 

@Ken-Hulme I left the name out on purpose to avoid it being about the person instead of the question. It is a well respected member. I assume personal experience can vary and something like a bad batch of strings might lead us to different conclusions. The benefit of the forum is getting input from the larger community to hear what others experience. All things being equal I’d rather have two matched instruments so it’s easier going from one to the other. Thanks for your input. 

That's how his mother taught him to play.  Jean Ritchie never played and sang melody.  She invariably played soft harmonies or counter-melodies and sang the melody.

"So I’ve read the recommendation to get one dulcimer in the 30” range and one in the 26” range to help this issue."

Not sure who recommended this, but IMHO it's not a useful recommendation -- Either VSL can easily give you ALL of the tunings you want with more than adequate ease of play -- simply by selecting the right strings.

"I’m pretty sure it’s not impossible to use 2 30” VSL dulcimers instead."

True -- or two 26" VSL instruments.


"I guess I’m trying to figure out how much playability I’ll lose going with two 30” dulcimers."

IMHO -- not enough to even bother thinking about 


"Is the benefit of having one shorter VSL worth making an extra effort to find one or is it splitting hairs?"

IMHO -- "Splitting hairs" is putting it mildly.   'Not worth even thinking about' is closer to reality.  IMHO there is NO benefit to having a shorter and a longer VSL instrument. 

After you've been playing for a couple years you will decide which VSL you prefer, and gravitate towards instruments of that size.  Decades ago I built and played 28" and 30" dulcimers... over time I have come to prefer short scales... these days I build and play 24"-27" VSL  dulcemores.

The Strothers String Gauge Calculator suggests strings of .023 for A and .016 for E on a dulcimer with a 30 inch VSL and .026 and .018 for G and D.  You might try .024 and .017 and feel comfortable tuning to both.  You will be tuning to the G and A below the standard D tuning.

For what it's worth (and it might not be worth much), I tune to the key of A by beginning in a "home base" tuning of DAA then placing a small piece of wood under the bass string at fret 1 to raise the bass string to E-- using EAA to play in the key of A.  I have standard dulcimers of varying VSL's and tune to any tuning I wish within the limits of what the string will take.    

Ok it makes sense a baritone would need to be designed to sound best in the lower ranges. I want to stick with a “standard” size dulcimer. I reread the article and the shorter VSL is to help prevent breaking the EE strings when tuning in the key of A. I’d like to just follow the advice if I can get a dulcimer that fits my needs in that length. If not, how well will a 30” VSL handle tuning to the key of A with the correct string gauges?

Below is a quote from the article.

 “I chose my shorter scale length dulcimer (26 1/2") for tuning to the keys of A and G, since a high EE was the highest note of all that I'd be tuning to in the four keys I'd be playing, so the shorter length kept less stress on the strings tuned up that high. And I chose my longer scaled dulcimer (28 1/2") for tuning to the keys of C and D, since GG was the lowest note of all that I'd be tuning to in the four keys, and a longer scale would help avoid those low G's from feeling too floppy.”

A baritone dulcimer is built to be tuned about a 5th lower than a standard dulcimer, AEE or GDD. The difference is not so much about VSL (27" baritones are common) as string gauge, action and building a body that resonates well at the lower pitch.

An alternative is to go a fifth higher than standard. McSpadden's Ginger model is an example of a dulcimer built to tune AEE or GDD an octave above baritone. These models often have a shorter VSL (23"-25") and a smaller body. They are convenient for travel and the higher pitch is a contrast you can hear when playing with standard dulcimers or guitars. For me the Ginger/alto range has the "high silvery" sound of a traditional dulcimer, while a baritone has more of a guitar sound. Just my opinion of course.

The shock of moving from a 30" VSL to a 23" inch VSL might be overwhelming. Or it might be fun, depending how much you enjoy a challenge! 

It's entirely up to you whether you'd prefer to go up or down in pitch from the standard DAA/CGG tuning. Within reason, any dulcimer of any size could be set up for the tuning you want. Certainly a 30" VSL could be set up as a baritone.Talk to your favorite builders and ask what they recommend.

I know someone who plays noter/drone on a Ginger (without the 6.5 fret) and is well pleased, but he does use an overhand grip on the noter. I have my eye on the Ed Thomas replicas, thinking their relatively small, shallow bodies might sing beautifully in the alto range, but that is merely speculation (and dulcimer acquisition disease).

Oh my goodness.  Thank you for sharing this video. Nina

@Dusty Turtle Yes that is why I want two dulcimers. I haven’t considered a baritone dulcimer. I heard of them but I don’t know what is different about them from a standard dulcimer. 

@Traildad, you are looking for a standard dulcimer (tuned D or C) and a baritone dulcimer (tuned G or A).  This is not a complicated proposition and there is no trouble changing tunings in the 1 or 2 note range that you discuss as long as you have the right string gauge. I have dulcimers in those two tonal ranges and switch between those keys all the time.  Not a problem.

I am not sure what you mean by a "specialty noter drone dulcimer" unless you mean one with partial frets that only sit underneath the melody string.  

You have the 1-5-5 tunings correct.  If you are tuned to A,  a 1-5-5 tuning is A-E-E.  In G, it would be G-D-D.  I am sure you can find the right string gauge to be able to go back and forth between those two keys.  

In D, a 1-5-5 tuning is D-A-A and in C it is C-G-G.  Again, you can find the right string gauges that will allow you to switch back and forth.  That will not be a problem.

However, you will not be able to move between A-E-E and D-A-A on the same set of strings.  I assume you understand this and that is why you want two dulcimers in two tonal ranges.

Sorry if I’m not explaining this clearly or using the right terminology. I have one dulcimer with a VSL of 30”. I was planning to pair it with one around 26”. Because I am looking for a speciality noter drone dulcimer I can’t order one from just any maker. That limits my choices. I can get a second 30” VSL if I want. I’m trying to decide if I can get by with two longer dulcimers instead of one longer and one shorter. The plan is to use one dulcimer to switch between the keys of C and D and the other for the keys of G and A, standard 155 tuning. Of course using the correct string gauge on each dulcimer. I would like to have good playability with the looser stings and also avoid breaking the tightest strings. So I’ve read the recommendation to get one dulcimer in the 30” range and one in the 26” range to help this issue. I’m pretty sure it’s not impossible to use 2 30” VSL dulcimers instead. I’ve discovered there are several very good dulcimer makers out there that don’t know diddly squat about noter drone dulcimers. I guess I’m trying to figure out how much playability I’ll lose going with two 30” dulcimers. Is the benefit of having one shorter VSL worth making an extra effort to find one or is it splitting hairs? 

What are the notes for 155 tuning? I’m sure I’ve got some of these wrong but I think the melody E string for the Key of A is the tightest string and the Drone C string for the key of C is the loosest. The goal is to get good tension on the loose strings while not breaking the tight strings by using a heavier gauge on one dulcimer and a lighter gauge on the other dulcimer. I understand the wisdom of the advice to change dulcimers when going from a low key to a high key. Having two dulcimers will solve a large part of the problem of playing in high and low keys. I just don’t know how much better it will be to also get the shorter VSL. 

Key of A is AEE?

Key of G is GDD?

Key of C is CGG?

Key of D is DAA?

Thanks for the help. 

For a builder, I agree with you! 

For a company that has CNC machines, I think not. 

Very nice but far to complicated for this absolute beginner.

These are called "Seahorse F" sound holes. 

We need to know three things to help --

1.  the VSL of the dulcimer(s) involved,

2.  the current string gauges on each instrument,

3.  the tunings you are trying to reach on each instrument   

You said " I think a melody string E is the highest note."  which makes no sense. Any string can be any open note.  It all depends on the gauge of the string.   

A string particular gauge of string cannot necessarily be any note -- notes too high for a particular gauge will break a string as you try to tune up.

15, 8 and 6mm drills as I have those. I my get more adventurous in future projects.

I should have mentioned that I am trying to figure this for 155 tunings. I think a melody string E is the highest note. Two dulcimers for four tunings. Depending of course on the songs I favor at the moment it could be frequent changes up or down the one note. I can’t remember which VSL was recommended for the high tuning. I should re read the blog.  Maybe it was the lower notes that were better on the shorter VSL. I do plan on using the calculator to get the right gauge strings. If I can’t get the shorter VSL I’m hoping that using two different dulcimers with the right gauge of strings will still allow good tension for the low drones and no breakage on the high melody strings. Thanks. 

If you have the right gauge string to start with, you should be able to go up or down a note with no problem.  On my standard dulcimer I often tune down to C and occasionally up to E, so all three strings are moving between two whole steps.

For a high D string and a 30" VSL, the Strothers String Gauge calculator suggests a .009, and for the C below that, a .010.  That gauge errs on the light side, so a .010 should easily work for either.  For the A, it recommends a .012 and for the G a .013.  Again, you could use either, but I would go with the .013.

I was soooooo touched by this music and playing and just two days before passing.....precious for his family.  I truely loved how he played a counter melody while singing that song so meaningfully.  thank you so much for posting.  aloha, irene

I’ve read that a shorter or longer VSL is beneficial for different tunings especially to keep from breaking strings on the highest notes. I'm wondering how problematic tuning between C and D or G and A will be on a 30” VSL if I can’t find a shorter VSL dulcimer I like. 

THIS, THIS is the way the dulcimore was meant to be played.  Soft accompaniment to the solo singing voice.

Not even playing the same notes, but harmonizing and filling-in around the singer's voice.  Peaceful and serene.

Robin and Dusty, you're welcome. I was unclear as to whether this video is a clip from a larger video which PBS Craft in America filmed. I do hope there is more. It is a treasure and difficult to play that way.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

It's wonderful that this has been preserved.  Notice that the dulcimer is not repeating the melody as Jon sings but playing a counter melody/harmony part to accompany the singing.  It is not easy to play like that since it's carrying two melodies at once.

Thanks for sharing this, Ken.

Oh, Ken, this is a treasure.  Thanks to you and to the Appalachian School of Luthiery in Hindman!  

Rest in peace, Jon Pickow.  

Here is a video of Jon Pickow, one of Jean Richie's and George Pickow's sons, made by PBS a few days before he died. PBS Craft in America has given us (Appalachian School of Luthiery) permission to redistribute this beautiful piece, so please share with the FOTMD community with our blessing!

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Who doesn't love Dolly? 

@fishdoc I've been thinking over your request and the only mountain dulcimer player who came to mind who might have a version of easy tablature is Don Pedi.  Here's a link to his Jerusalem Ridge on Bandcamp: 

https://donpedi.bandcamp.com/track/jerusalem-ridge

You could contact Don here: 

http://donpedi.com

Ken Hulme

Thanks for replying.  I downloaded your article.  Lots of good information!  It answered a lot of questions that we have had; also a lot of stuff for us to learn.  Thanks so much for providing the article; know you must have put a lot of work into it.

I will be sure to join the Beginners Players Group.  Thanks for suggesting it.

Ken Longfield

Thanks so much for helping with the question about the depth of the sides. 

The information about the factors that can change the sound are very interesting.  I tried strumming in various places and the differences were very obvious.  Had lots of fun trying that.

The answer was simple enough for me to understand; very much appreciated!

I don't think it is the same instrument. This one looks more like a decorated McSpadden to me.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

@dan, I was wondering the same thing, but I don't think it is the same instrument.  The one that was auctioned off had a flat head, not a scroll head.  You can see the listing here .

Was that the embellished piece that was auctioned off for charity?

Cool!

Nice!

Welcome to the world of dulcimers!  The other Ken has given you a good answer about depth of sides and factors influencing sound.  I'm going to suggest that you all take a gander at the essay I wrote years ago for new players.  It's called I Just Got A Dulcimer, Now What? .  It's an illustrated glossary of terms, so we all speak the same jargon, plus answers to many beginner questions about tuning, playing, care and feeding of your new friends...   You can find the article in our Beginner Players Group (you just have to "join" the Group), and download it free:

Ken Hulme's "I Just Got A Dulcimer, Now What?" Article - Strumelia | fotmd.com

IThe link is in the first post at the bottom of the Topic...

Let me answer your question, but first help you with some terminology. What you are asking is "does the 'depth' of the sides not the 'thickness' influence the sound."]  Both will influence the sound of the dulcimer. Stiffer sides generally help with projection of the sound.  The thickness of the sides is usually between 1/8 th and 1/10 th of an inch and helps create the stiffness.  Depth can vary as you've noticed. Deeper sides tend to emphasize the bass sounds, but other factors come in to play. The vibrating string length (VSL), the types of wood used, the strength of the glue joints, the type of strings, how you play it, etc. all influence sound. Notice how different the dulcimer sounds when you play close to the bridge, over the strum hollow, over the fret board.

I hope this answer was simple enough, but still gives you some other information to expand your knowledge of the dulcimer.

Enjoy your dulcimer journey. Play well. Be safe.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."