Forum Activity for @matt-berg

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

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And speaking of controversial, if you are comparing dulcimers to guitars, it helps to use proper luthier terms.  Technically, very few dulcimers have a "bridge".  A bridge bridges the internal bracing.  As most dulcimers either lack internal bracing or lack anything that spans them, most dulcimers do not have a true bridge. What dulcimer builder call a bridge, every other luthier calls a saddle.  However, as to part of your question.

Most guitars have the strings anchored to the soundboard.  Some dulcimers, Gallier in particular, anchor their strings in the same way.  The vast majority of dulcimers anchor their strings to the edge of the soundbox.  Comparing the string angle on a instrument with the strings anchored to the soundboard to one with the strings anchored to the soundbox is an apple to oranges comparison that will get you nowhere.

Jazz guitars anchor their strings to the edge of the sound box.  I read an article in American Lutherie in which the author tried various string angles to see which was best.  The author decided that a more shallow string angle led to a louder more jangly sound.  As the angle sharpened, the sound became clearer.  Beyond 15 degrees, the angle noticeably reduced the volume.  The author concluded that 15 degrees was the optimal angle.

As noted above guitars are not dulcimers and dulcimers are not guitars.  I build my instruments with the 15 degree angle at the saddle (bridge).  I like the sound, but sound is musician's choice.

For the headstock, I also use the 15 degree angle.  I have no particular reason for doing so other than it works for me.

And just for full disclosure, my dulcimers do use internal bracing, a true bridge and a floating fretboard.  So take anything I say with a grain of salt.  The attached picture is of a build I intend to finish this weekend.

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

IIRC lutes have such steep angled heads because the strings are gut, not metal, and that supposedly aids in keeping the string in tune.  

The string break angle that I learned from my building mentor was 14 degrees.  Where these numbers come from is a mystery.  

Your observations on rounded vs angled string breaks, particularly at the nut end are very interesting and validate the Zero Fret with a string guide as perhaps a better way to create the VSL. 

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

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You won't got wrong.  I have one of John's Thomas replicas and really love it.  Both Dan and Booby make fabulous traditional dulcemores as well, in other styles.

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

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Thanks! But I seek one dulcimer to rule them all... I don't really have the space or the money to start accumulating a collection, and if I did, they'd be (properly!) different styles. Don't worry about the photo, I think I have a pretty good idea of their appearance.

Anyway, having been in touch with both John and Kevin re timescales etc., I think I'm going to go with John.

archives section / Search?

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Hi Ted, just type in a key word or key phrase into the Search field - click the white 'magnifying glass' icon at the very top right corner of any page. That will search the entire contents of the site.

There are also similar search fields available in various sections of the site, such as our Video section, or Photo section. Those will search only within that section.  For example, type in "cat" in the photo section and you'll get various photos with the word cat in the title or description.

An 'archive' is a collection of older material that is stored in a separate location from the current material, perhaps stored by date. In that sense, there is no 'archive' here on FOTMD because all our content from ten years is all kept in the same place here- you just have to use the search feature to find the specific things you are interested in, or else just browse older discussions and older pages from the Video or Audio sections. It's all there for the browsing.

Hope that helps.

archives section / Search?

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Is there an archives section ? Or key word that I can lookup .

 

How is the COVID-19 coronavirus affecting you?

OFF TOPIC discussions

Thank you Lisa!  I know my mom would disagree with me, but when I say the blessing is all mine....

i truly feel that way!

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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There are two different reasons for pick clack. One is the sound of the pick flipping as it strikes a string.  That sound is much more pronounced with thinner picks than with heavier ones.  And some pick material also makes less noise than others.

The other sound is the pick hitting the fretboard.  But that is why people talk about technique.  Your pick should not be going so deep into the strings that you hit the fretboard. Rather, you should be gliding along the top. Addiitonally, angling the pick so it is not parallel to the string but only hits it on the side (for righties, that means the left side going out and the right side coming in) also reduces the noise the pick makes and helps avoid getting in between the strings to hit the fretboard.

Personally, I enjoy heavy picks that allow for much greater timing accuracy, so I have little problem with that first sound.  And when I record or perform I use a ridiculously expensive pick that someone gave me which produces almost no sound at all.

But I still sometimes get sloppy with my picking and hit the fretboard, especially if I get to playing pretty fast. That's one reason I like my McCafferty with the extended strum hollow since I don't have to worry about my less-than-perfect strumming technique.

There's nothing wrong with adding some percussive sounds as we play, but it ought to be on purpose, and as Irene says, we might not want it on every song we play.

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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@Irene asked "Tell me how you can play with a pick and NOT get that flappy flap flap?  It's great percussion, but I don't want percussion on all my music with the dulcimore."  @ken-hulme gave a method, but if that doesn't match the way you strum it could be hard to change habits.  Felt picks don't make sounds on songs that don't fit percussive pick noise.  

(I know, I know, it's not strumhollow related & I was treading dangerously outside this discussion's topic.)  

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

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I have a K Messenger Thomas reproduction. He used an early 1930's Thomas from which he took his pattern. It looks and sounds might good. It is really sweet in Ebb.  I have seen and heard J Knopf's Thomas reproductions. They as well look great and sound great. As John said they are a bit different but both accurate to the Thomas dulcimores. You won't go wrong with either.Why not get one of each? I can post a picture of the Messenger Thomas if you like.

How is the COVID-19 coronavirus affecting you?

OFF TOPIC discussions

Cindy that's great that you are able to support and help your mother this way.

My uncle was 95 when he passed away this past December, and all the way until his last year or two, he and my aunt took a one or two mile walk every day.  A great way to stay active for older folks especially!  They always called it their 'hike' even after it had slowed way down as they got older.   :)

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

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This might end up being a controversial topic, since I cant seem to find a lot of agreement on it elsewhere, but I'd like to know what y'all know and have observed about how much the headstock angle, length of the headstock, radius of the nut, and bridge breakpoint angle, radius of the bridge, and excess of string between the bridge and tailpins affect tone, volume, and sustain.

My research has indicated to me that people just dont agree for the most part on these questions. The highly credible @Ken-Hulme said in a forum post *"Position of bridge relative to the string pins or break over the end (how much string is aft of the bridge) affects sustain"* Lutes have an extremely sharp headstock angle, apparently due to the desire to ensure that the strings have a rigid boundary to their VSL. Brian May's Red Special has such a subtle headstock angle it almost appears that the string is not bent over the nut at all. One local luthier has personally told me that a 10 degree headstock angle is necessary to ensure that the string is held in place and anything past that is just builders preference. Gibson has some guitars with infamously sharp headstock angles, which their website claims improves tone. My friend Allen took a board and stretched several strings across it at different angles, and told me that a 6 degree angle was the lowest he could avoid buzzing at. (interestingly I looked at my acoustic guitars and noticed both of them have a <10 degree angle that they stretch over the bridge at) He is much stronger than me at physics, so I'm inclined to believe his explanation that you need enough downward force on the VSL boundary to be greater than any upward force from the string's vibration, and any additional force past that is redundant. Makes sense to me since that's the case with fretting; you only need just enough pressure to keep the string in contact with the fret, adding more pressure past that does not give extra sustain, tone, or volume, so why would the bridge and nut be different?

One key difference that has come up in my own experiments is that in the past I often cut my nut and bridge at a straight angle (whereas frets are obviously rounded on their tops) and noticed buzzes, and abnormally quiet sound. It was explained to me that I should not expect a steel string to bend at an angle, rather at a radius.  When I went back and cut new bridges with a radius past the break point the difference was night and day in terms of increased volume and resolving buzzing issues. In the attached image the black objects represent 'bridges' the red lines represent 'strings'. The first diagram shows a 'bridge' with very minimal contact, which I believe puts tremendous amounts of extra stress on the bridge and the string. The second shows better contact but still a sharp angle at the breakpoint, which i believe can cause intonation issues and buzzing since the string might not actually be able to bend all the way to match the angle of the bridge without over-applying string tension, and therefore the breakpoint may be further back on the bridge than intended. The third diagram is what I currently do more or less, which is round off the side of the bridge and nut that is outside the VSL so that the string has a lot of contact and no sharp angles. I have never paid attention to the length of string outside the VSL, I have always assumed that if you have adequate downward force on the bridge and nut, that anything past them is irrelevant. A lot to think about but I'm sure plenty of you have thought about these things before! I'd love some more perspective

updated by @nate: 05/10/20 02:34:31PM

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

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Many thanks for that clarification John. I thought that was probably the explanation. So hard to compare appearances, and sound for that matter, given the inherent differences between cameras, angles, recording conditions etc.!

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

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Hi, Magictime!  This is John Knopf.  You asked if the bouts on my Thomas dulcimores are the same width, and they are NOT.       My cheap camera distorts images, sometimes badly.  I've noticed that myself. The upper bouts are narrower by nearly an inch.  I think Kevin used a different Thomas dulcimore for measurements in making his reproduction.  As you may know, Uncle Ed didn't make any two of his dulcimores alike, but there are many similarities.  So - - Kevin makes a great replica of Thomas dulcimore "A", and I make great replicas of Thomas dulcimore "B".  The sound is very similar.  I hope this clears things up for you.

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

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I'm weighing my options for ordering a meantone fretted Thomas replica. I'm in the UK and as far as I can ascertain, nobody over here is building such things for sale, whereas at least two American luthiers with excellent reputations specialise in this type of historic replica - John Knopf and Kevin Messenger. Is there anything members would say in terms of comparing and contrasting the two? For instance, looking at pictures I have the impression that the upper and lower bouts are almost the same size on John's, whereas the lower bout is noticeably wider on Kevin's - is this correct? Are they based on earlier and later Thomas patterns perhaps? Any effect on sound? Anything else people would say? Any builders I'm overlooking? (I'm aware of Dan Cox and Bobby Ratliff, but as of right now I'm leaning towards a reproduction rather than simply a traditional instrument.) 

How is the COVID-19 coronavirus affecting you?

OFF TOPIC discussions

I have been working from home (a real challenge - and I don't even have kids under foot).  Early Tuesday mornings I do our grocery shopping as well as my mom's.  I deliver her groceries (only to the front porch).  Then we walk.  It's amazing that we haven't missed a walk in all the weeks we have been doing this!  She is 87 and still walks a mile every day!  The hardest part is leaving without a hug!

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

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That is very insightful, thank you Grant!

Reading your perception of the differences it's pretty apparent to me that I am not at a level of knowledge yet to be trying to add in other equidistant strings. I think at the core, I am wanting to move towards all kinds of changes to improve my sound including chromatic scales, extra strings, and more elaborate courses, but probably the only one I am ready for yet is  more elaborate courses. I think at this moment I am mainly just considering any ways i can make the sound itself fuller or prettier, not necessarily ways to give it more notes.....yet!

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

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Thank you for such a comprehensive response Ken. I guess I am mostly asking about different tunings to the courses but also dont really know if it makes more sense to just add extra strings in equidistantly. I'll try to notate the tunings more coherently going forward, I was not aware of the correct way to write them.

And yes 12 strings are a bit of a challenge for me but specifically my hands have gotten used to the freedom of sliding around and only having to stay over 1 string per finger while they do. So i have gotten used to hand positions that put pressure in the exact place on the string that I need, and when another one is added in, my muscle memory doesnt compensate for having to move my finger slightly to the side well enough. That being said if I can find a tuning that has a sound I really like, it would be a pleasure to put in the practice.

Anyway, I am very curious  if you can still use DAd tabs with the tunings you mention? Will they still sound correct? I have a hard time understanding how our ears interpret these intervals but intuitively it seems like if your melody string was Ad it would change some chords. Is this the case? Also if the middle string is tuned 'Aa' (which I think is A3a4) then the highest pitch open string would be the middle correct? Does this affect the way the sound is perceived if the melody you are fretting is lower in pitch than the drone, instead of typically always being higher? Again, to be clear, this is all coming from an uneducated perspective.

updated by @nate: 05/06/20 02:49:11PM

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

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Interesting question Nate! First about 6 string dulcimers and things: I have a mcspadden baritone with 6 strings. Before I restrung it, it was A2A3-E3E4-A3A3. I also thought it was a little annoying to play, since the pairs of strings are not equal in size. But I thought it had a very rich sound with the octave courses.

Then you're also talking about some 4 string ideas. I think those are fun. However, going off what Ken was saying, a 4 string dulcimer is not really a "trational" dulcimer. You'll have to do more chords usually and be more careful what strings you play.

A few different tunings:
D-F#-A-d:
I haven't done much with this but I think most of the time, folks are using this to access more chromatic notes on a diatonic instrument. If you're not familiar with chromatic stuff, this probably won't be very intuitive.

D-G-A-D:
This is the first 4 string tuning I really tried. I also played Rondo Alla Turca with this tuning. I think it's more intuitive, because both DAd and DGd are hidden in there. I also like it because you can get more 4 note chords in a tighter range, and have extra strings for fast melodies. However, this tuning is harder with strumming because one of the middle strings will often get in the way.

D-A-d-a:
I of course like this tuning. It's got a larger range, but with four strings more 7th chords and other 4 note chords are avaliable. Another observation to help playing in this tuning: the higher three strings, (A-d-a) are actually the same intervals as DGd tuning. If you know DGd chord shapes, you can play them there.

One thing to think about is what you want extra strings for. Do you want to play songs you already know, just with a different sound; or do you want to dive into a completely new tuning and different techniques?

Grant

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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Yes, unfortunately I had my doubts that the spaces would be big enough, though I would say it may still be useful for picking styles where the pinky is used to anchor the hand in place. Of course I eventually intend to practice enough that it stops being a concern, but since I build all my own dulcimers, I frequently indulge on 'crutch' modifications that help the sound along in the meantime. Not to correct the mistakes in my technique, but to correct the sound even in the event of a mistake so that it's more appealing to listeners while I am still learning and often mess up! 

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

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You don't seem to be talking about adding additional strings, just about changing the same six strings to different tunings.  Two different things.  

FWIW -- mostly we refer to tunings from the bass string to the melody, not melody to bass the way you write them...  Tunings are usually written  DAA, DAd, etc, where the lower case letters show a note an octave higher -- d versus D

Remember, the dulcimer is a 3 course instrument -- melody, middle drone, bass drone -- not a 6 course instrument like a guitar.  Any course can have 1, 2 or even 3 strings, but we still retain the concept of melody, middle drone and bass drone strings.  MOST dulcimer tunings involve the bass and middle drones being tuned a fifth apart, with the melody string(s) tuned to create different "scales" as the guitarists call them.  D-A or C-G or G-D are fifths apart 1-5.  Tuning the melody strings to different notes gives us scales-- 1-5-5. 1-5-7, 1-5-8, 1-5-4 etc.  -- which start at different frets.  

If you think strumming a 3-course dulcimer with 2 strings per course (total 6 strings) is "very cumbersome to get used to fretting..." and you're not getting "all that much fuller of a sound" -- them you're really in trouble if you try to strum a 6-course doubled string instrument like a 12 string guitar.  

A 3-courses double strung (6 string dulcimer) tuned with some octave pairs and other combinations are not uncommon.  Bass courses strung and tuned Dd are very common.  So are melody course tuned Ad.  Thus you have Dd-AA-Ad.  Once in awhile you'll find someone experimenting with octave tuned middle drones Aa and you could have Dd- Aa-Ad.  Any of these octave tuned couplets would need something other than the ordinary set of dulcimer string, of course.

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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Terry McCafferty makes what he calls an "extended" strumhollow.  Bascically he cuts off the fretboard a few frets early to creater a longer and more usable strumhollow.  How many of us actually fret those little tiny frets above 14 anyway?  Take a look at his instruments and you'll see what I'm talking about.  I love playing with the extra long strumhollow.

It might be that @Natebuildstoys saw Stephen with one of Terry's dulcimers.  He's been playing them a lot the last few years.

 

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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I think you're tilting at windmills here. 

Dishing out between frets to make 'strum-able' spaces has been tried; and not very successfully.  The lengths of the spaces are too small and it's too hard to stay in that space as you strum.  Hardly anyone keeps their strums within a one inch zone! 

If it were worth the time and effort, you'd see all kinds of builders using the idea in their builds.  

IMHO it's also gonna be ugly.  Also, to me, it's too much work for virtually no gain.  "..consistent sound quality with less effort and technique... would maybe reduce the damage" Consistent sound quality is the result of good strumming technique.  Sloppy technique results in damaged fretboards and tops.  Learning how to hold the pick and strum with it is the second most important skill to learn with the dulcimer, or other stringed instruments.  First skill is learning to fret the string(s) cleanly.  No facet of instrument design can truly compensate for poor playing techniques.

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

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I'd like to put more strings on my next dulcimer. I have a 6 string dulcimer which is tuned dd-AA-DD. Very cumbersome to get used to fretting those extra strings and not all that much 'fuller' of a sound in my opinion. @Granto has one which I've seen in his videos that is tuned D3 A3 D4 A4 which I'd love to do eventually but for now I gotta study theory more so I can actually get some use out of the extra range. The same goes for adding an f# string as in d-A-F#-D Someone mentioned on here a dulcimer tuned dd-a-Dd with a D4 string running in course with the D3. That's hard to wrap my head around.I am aware that 12 string guitars often use 'octave tuned' courses, but It seems to me that this might get in the way. For example 'dyad' chords which only use the middle and bass string would still have those high notes that you are meant to be specifically avoiding playing. Also I'd imagine the bridge would have to be cut bizarrely for better intonation. What do y'all think? Have you heard dulcimers tuned like this? Are you aware of specific issues in building or playing that relate to adding extra strings? What do yall think is an ideal 'extra' string or strings to add to a dd-a-D dulcimer? Finally what about these two extremely radical tuning ideas: d4d4-A3A3-D3D2 as well as d4D3-A3A2-D3D2 basically, all three strings running in course with their lower octave. Conceptually i would think it would sound good but I have no education in music or building so It might very well be muddy or chaotic or impractical. I'd love to hear thoughts!

updated by @nate: 05/07/20 11:38:18AM

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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I saw a Stephen Seifert video where he showed a dulcimer made for him that had a strumhollow which went all the way up to the 14th fret (16th literally) and he explained it was made this way because that was where he preferred to strum. I have attached an image. What do y'all think of the idea of hollowing out one of the spaces between two of the frets low down the fretboard? For example, if there was a strumhollow between the 8th and 9th frets, another between the 12th and 13th and another just past the bottom frets? Then while playing the top of the fretboard you could use the top strumhollow, while playing the middle you could use the middle strumhollow, and when playing way down the frets you can use the traditional strumhollow. Maybe this would be structurally weak or ugly, but I would expect that it would be more practical for consistent sound quality with less effort and technique and also would maybe reduce the damage over time caused from the pick hitting the fretboard.

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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Irene -  to play with a pick and not get flap, you have to slide the pic across the strings at an angle in each direction, not hold the pick rigidly vertical at right angles to the plane of the strings.  On the outstroke the angle is like this / but a shallower angle.  On the instroke the angle is opposite \ again again even more shallow.  if you keep the pick vertical | you get a distinct 'click' as the pick releases each string in turn.  But if you angle the pick it just slides from string to string.  The trick is learning to turn the wrist and forearm as you strum.   That's how I learned from Robert Force anyway...

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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Thanks Lois.   Well, I can see folks playing here and on youtube....playing on the 12 fret or there abouts....with using their hand and not a pick, then the sweet tone is there for sure.  I watch Kendra Ward play, always in the strum hollow....she uses a corset stay.....that would make a quick mess of fret boards up higher.  I can also see that's it's  a bit hard when it's on the lap.....so the flappty flap flap is copied.  Tell me how you can play with a pick and NOT get that flappy flap flap?  It's great percussion, but I don't want percussion on all my music with the dulcimore.   As others have said many times here, there's no right or wrong way to play a dulcimore....there's just  the joy of playing music alone or with others.  So thank you other lutherers out there that made a strum hollow....I use 'em.  aloha, irene

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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At the risk of leaving the point of the discussion, since the strum hollow seems a bit of protection from picks . . .

Tend to agree, @Irene.  Picks cramp your hand and, unless I specifically want the percussion, I, too, am no fan of the FLAP FLAPITY FLAP.  As to where to play, I probably need to pay more attention.  I remember being surprised when my husband asked why I didn't use the strum hollow.  Never noticed.  Had more important things to pay attention to and now this discussion's got me noticing a bit more.

Dulcimer String Anchor Pins

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I thought the same when I first tried it Don, but since then I've made perhaps 50 dulcimers using this method and it works perfectly. I wouldn't want to try it on softwood though. This is what it looks like with the strings in place.

Dulcimer String Anchor Pins

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Grateful for the place to order the brass pins, thanks John.  and a beautiful job of how to hide the ball end of a string.   There are a lot of ways of tying those strings down.....but a stick out with all of 'em attached to one is not a good solution.   aloha, irene

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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I add a strum hollow on all the dulcimers I build. I assume my customers expect it. And it looks cool. But do you need one? I would say no. Personally I never play over the hollow. Usually it's over the twelfth to sixteenth fret area. But I can see it's usefulness with finger picking. Metal finger picks especially.... Robert.

Dulcimer String Anchor Pins

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I would think that eventually the hole will elongate from the tension of the sting pulling the ball end into the wood. The pin holds the ball end in place away from the wood. However I am not a luthier...

Dulcimer String Anchor Pins

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Very neat workaround. Definitely an aesthetically nice solution

What's your favorite tune or dulcimer to play this month?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Have been practicing on Ashokan Farewell trying to get fluid on it. Very fond of Dusty's performance and have watched it a few times for study!

Favorite Dulcimer to play right now is my 30" long dulcimer. Keep it between us, but i never bothered to finish trimming the frets down

Dulcimer String Anchor Pins

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That's an interesting design, Clive.  Wouldn't work for every design, certainly, but if it works for you, that's what matters.  

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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My belief is that strum hollows are not necessary.  I think many new builders (in the 60's and 70's) followed the Kentucky tradition of Ed Thomas.  They saw many photos of these dulcimers, to the exclusion of older Virginia dulcimers, and just thought that was "the way they were supposed to be built".  I certainly didn't see any examples back then of dulcimers without strum hollows.

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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Rob, I had a Hughes dulcimer from the 80's, and it did have a strumhollow...and, I lived in Colorado at the time ...I don't know about any of their dulcimers  before that.

Is the strumhollow redundant?

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When I got my 1st dulcimer nearly 40 years ago I thought you should play over the strum hollow most of the time.  I learned quickly that sul tasto (toward the nut) and sul ponticello (toward the bridge) would do the same as on the guitar: a sweeter sound toward the nut, a more metallic sound near the bridge.  Like others I used them to vary the sound as I did on the guitar.  However, you can do the same thing without a strum hollow.  Here's a pic of my Heatherwood, which has no strum hollow:

I believe the Hughes dulcimers were made the same way.  Maybe that was a Colorado thing? 

That being said, you can see by some old dulcimers without strum hollows people wore down the part of the fretboard over which they were strumming.  My problem is not that but wearing the top from vigorous strumming and fingerpicking.  My Rockwell is going to look like Willie's Trigger in about a year if I don't watch it.  LOL.

 

 

Dulcimer String Anchor Pins

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I got so fed up with pins that I decided to try something else. I drill 4 shallow holes big enough to hold the ball end and cut 4 slots between them and the bridge. It makes changing strings easier and makes the sound better, on my dulcimers at least, perhaps because it is attached to wood and not metal.

 

What's your favorite tune or dulcimer to play this month?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

yep, Steven, I'm with you on that.   However, during this Plandemic, I've loved the hymns most of all and Tomasi, my husband, playing the autoharp with me.   There's one I've been working on...........COME HOME.  although I'm already muchly at home............I love playing my newest dulcimer that is all cherry wood and I'd sent the peg head to a carving son that lives in Maui, he carved a beautiful scroll head for me and this is a bright sounding dulcimer.  Still, I love my big Box dulcimer that is so very mellow.....aloha, irene