Forum Activity for @jerry-c-rockwell

As Dusty Turtle say, this is NOT a dumb question!! It is a question which opens up many doors, and once you start opening the doors, you will have more and more questions. This is basically the large field of "Tunings and Temperaments" or sometimes referred to as "Microtunings" or "microtonality" -- basically all pointing to the whole idea of notes in between the keys of a piano (or smaller than a half-step).

There is some great discussion here, and many of you seem to have a good handle on the overall, general ideas of where frets might go. I particularly resonate with the single string stretched across a board of some sort, where you map out the divisions of the string - which will give you the harmonic series. If you get the harmonic series: dividing a string into 2 (2nd harmonic), 3 (3rd harmonic), 4 (4th harmonic), 5 (5th harmonic), 6 (6th harmonic), 7 (7th harmonic), and so on----then you can see how easy it is to build a just-intonation scale based on VERY simple small-integer ratios:

1/1 - 9/8 - 5/4 - 4/3 - 3/2 - 5/3 - 15/8 - 2/1

These would correspond to the frequency ratios of C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C ---- if you want fret spacing for your dulcimer's bass string (this is for 6+ fret only here - computing the normal 6th fret is another ballgame), you would use the inverse of these (frequency is inversely proportional to string length), remembering that the string length is the distance from each fret to the Bridge. To get your distance from the nut to a fret, just subtract that from the open nut-to-bridge V.S.L.

Another very important thing to remember on the dulcimer is that -- in C - G - G (1 - 5 - 5 Ionian) Tuning, the middle and melody strings will NOT go up EXACTLY as the bass string, because they are tuned to the 5th of the scale (so you start from 3/2 at the nut on these strings, and this time you will have the natural 6th fret and NOT the 6+). So, I'm basically saying here that it is not possible ALWAYS to have one fret go all across the fingerboard like they do on guitars, banjos, and modern dulcimers.

The wikipedia entry on just intonation is superb on deriving all this:

just intonation

I really need to get around to making some sort of an adjustable-fret dulcimer -- individually adjustable frets for each string. Of course one way around this is to use bagpipe tuning 1 - 8 - 8 (I know this works well for just tuning because my 1966 Jethro Amburgey is pretty close to just tuning and bagpipe tuning ROCKS on this!). Sorry about all the detail and ratios, but it really comes down to this kind of stuff, and there are many, many worthwhile web sites to help you get it.

I may be able to answer your questions, or at least I may be able to point the way to some good web resources. Thanks for the great thread!! BTW, I'm a major fan of Equal Temperament, mostly because I play a lot of chords and want to be in tune with keyboard synthesizers.

And by the way, this is not a "dumb question" at all but in fact a very complicated one that involves mathematics, acoustics, and other sciences about which most musicians (including wannabees like myself) are entirely ignorant.

James, the conversation that Strumelia links to will indeed help you understand the difference between mean tone and equal temperament as they pertain to the dulcimer, and Peter's explanation also offers more than I can.

But let me just explain the problem that these two fretting systems try to address. It is sometimes said that G-d invented the octave and the fifth and humans invented all the other notes. Imagine a string tightened over a soundbox with no frets. Obviously, if you stop the vibration exactly half way along the string, you will get an octave of the open string. But between that open string and the octave, how many notes should there be? Different cultures answer that question differently. Some have 5 notes, for example. In western music, a chromatic scale has 12 notes and a diatonic scale has 7 notes. But where along that open string would you put them? It turns out that placing those notes along the string is not as simple as it seems, and exactly where they go would actually depend upon the note they are tuned in relation to. That is why in John's discussion Robin talks about placing frets not in relation to the open string, but in relation to the fretted tonic note.

So if you were fretting an instrument to be played in only one key, you could do a great job of placing those frets so that the notes would all sound great in relation to one another. But if you tried to play in a different key, they would sound off. Equal temperament tuning tries to basically split the difference and create note placements that are equally off in all keys, but hopefully close enough so that most of us can't hear the dissonance.

Here is a mathematical explanation of all of this: http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/52470.html . The first response by Dr. Toby might be all you need, but the conversation there goes on for some length.

Hi James,

I just stumbled upon an older blog post by John Henry that discusses mean tone fretting, it might help explain!:

http://mountaindulcimer.ning.com/profiles/blogs/mean-tone-fretting

I have a dumb question but exactly what is mean tone, and how does it relate to the dulcimer? I know the sound is different and that is about all I know. Best,

The Dulcimer Shop in Blowing Rock was started by Rogers McGee, and is now run by his son, Bill. It's a small shop but has a nice variety of items for its size. And Bill and company are friendly folks who'll chat with you all you want, as long as you give them a break when paying customers walk in!

High Country Dulcimers in Foscoe / Boone appears larger in it's website photos. I haven't been to their shop, but my wife as dealt with Mac McKinney over the years with various Girl Scout projects, and they, too, seem like nice people.

I'm sure both would be nice stops on your trip, but you might want to check their websites or call for their hours.

If you do plan to stop back in Black Mountain, besides Song of the Wood you might want to see if Tom Fellenbaum is around at Acoustic Corner , just around the corner from Jerry's shop. Tom's workshop is next door to the shop and he isn't always in, but you might be able to find out when you could visit. He doesn't usually have many instruments available to buy "right now", but hey, he's dulcimer folk! Another good guy to visit and learn from!

Another option is to see whether Don Pedi is playing around the area. If not, you might be able to catch his radio show his show on WCQS except in Boone, where they don't have a translator. Even then, you could listen online!

I'm coming late to this discussion, but I also had noticed no comment, until Brian's, about key. Carrie, I know what you mean about folks being scared to lower a string. It's frustrating, as it isn't that hard - it just takes a bit of practice to get used to it. But, it is not necessary to retune any string to play in a different key. E minor, G major, A major and others are all pretty accessible in DAd tuning. A tune in a minor key can really help add variety to a set. Just be sure to add tunes in a variety of keys to your usual playbook so you can insert them in a set list. Have fun!

Linda

www.cabinhillmusic.com

One thing I don't believe I saw mentioned yet is key. As in, vary the key of the tunes you are playing. An entire performance in D can get old pretty quickly, even if you are varying tempo, mood, etc. And you don't even necessarily have to retune (I mention that only because is seems there are some people/groups who can't stand the idea of retuning out of DAD or DAA), just play in a key other than D. Your audience will appreciate it. :)

One thing I don't believe I saw mentioned yet is key. As in, vary the key of the tunes you are playing. An entire performance in D can get old pretty quickly, even if you are varying tempo, mood, etc. And you don't even necessarily have to retune (I mention that only because is seems there are some people/groups who can't stand the idea of retuning out of DAD or DAA), just play in a key other than D. Your audience will appreciate it. :)

Thanks to everyone for the great suggestions. Sorry, I do not have veto power. I can suggest but suggestion may not be taken. It seems like some want to just have one book, the practice book, alphabetical, and then put tabs where the songs are to be played for the next performance. (Don't ask me why. I agree--makes no sense).We always end up waiting for someone to find the next tune while the walk-by audience is moving on.

I would like to have a couple of basic play lists, with the tunes printed in playing order. Then add to or subtract from the chosen list as time or event dictates. But others do not wish to copy songs they already have or to have more than one book. And definitely do not rearrange the book.

I am looking for more on what should and should not follow another and the over all look of the program.

We try to add things to make the songs more interesting such as train whistle on Ruben's tain or another instrument such as banjo on appropriate tunes. I like the idea of silly songs and will look for some of those. Some audiences like to sing with your playing more than others. So we try to be sure to include tunes they will probably know.

Being flexible is a good idea and keep working to improve.

Thanks, everyone.

Ken Hulme said:

Dusty has a good additional category of song to throw in the mix -- humorous or silly songs. Abigail , Side by Side , Five Constipated Men , Hole In The Bucket , even a funny rendition of Darlin' Clementine or Oh Susannah can really wake up an audience.

I think it's wise for everyone to have a "set list" of at least half a dozen songs that are practiced and well developed. A long time ago I had a single page that listed something like 200 songs that I know, plus their opening measures. I'd get in a jam circle and blank out when it came my turn to lead a tune, so I created that page as a memory aid. Well the original is long gone, but earlier this week I decided to recreate that list to help me pick out tunes to play at a weekly Open Mic I attend. Still adding to the list...

Dusty has a good additional category of song to throw in the mix -- humorous or silly songs. Abigail, Side by Side, Five Constipated Men, Hole In The Bucket, even a funny rendition of Darlin' Clementineor Oh Susannah can really wake up an audience.

I think it's wise for everyone to have a "set list" of at least half a dozen songs that are practiced and well developed. A long time ago I had a single page that listed something like 200 songs that I know, plus their opening measures. I'd get in a jam circle and blank out when it came my turn to lead a tune, so I created that page as a memory aid. Well the original is long gone, but earlier this week I decided to recreate that list to help me pick out tunes to play at a weekly Open Mic I attend. Still adding to the list...

I have run across the same alphabetical order weirdness with a local group, so your group isn't the only one. It might only be for practice though, not sure if they will do it at a performance. The reason given was so folks could all find the songs quickly. Seemed pretty weird to me. I figure that the binders don't have the songs in alphabetical order any way and if folks have to arrange the pages they could just as well arrange them in any order. I will just go with the flow on this one though.

Yeah, you should just veto the idea of playing songs alphabetically. Decide on a set list and arrange the music or tab in that order and no one will have a problem.

I think Ken hit on the main points above. Try to vary tempo, subject matter, playing style, songs with vocals and instrumentals, and so forth.

I just recently began putting together a set list for myself. Oh no, not because I have a gig, but because I like to fantasize that someday I'll get a gig. And I've begun to practice the set in order so that I know how long things run. I have put a couple of slow, fingerpicked tunes back-to-back on a couple of occasions, but as Ken suggests, I make sure they are couched in between upbeat, flatpicked tunes. I also like to pepper things with silly, nonsensical tunes here and there just to keep things lighthearted.

Thank you so much. Lots of good ideas there. Have fun on your float done the river. Sounds like a great place to be.

Ken Hulme said:

Mix up the fast, faster, slower and slowest tunes. Playing two slow pieces back to back isn't bad, but make sure there's a peppier piece on either side of them. Same things with tunes that may have "down" connotations or words; they should be followed by something more upbeat. For example Streets of Laredo and St. James Infirmary should not follow each other. Both are beautiful tunes but the subject matter in both is depressing (death & dying).

Make sure you really DO play tunes at different speeds; many groups have a tendency for all the songs to slump down to a common, below normal, speed.

Start and finish with songs your audience will know by heart -- tunes from the 1940s - 1960s. You Are My Sunshine is always good. Also Tennessee Waltz and Danny Boy . A mixture of folk and popular tunes with a hymn or two like Amazing Grace and Simple Gifts thrown in goes over well. Mix up the "ethnicity" of the songs too -- American, English, Celtic, etc. Do, please be aware of copyright and performance rights issues. Public domain songs are the best, always. You can play Aura Lea , which the audience may recognize as Love Me Tender , but tell them Elvis "borrowed" a much older, public domain tune, and wrote his own words for it. There are several other examples

Playing songs alphabetically is. frankly, a bit weird. Number the songs as they will fit in the set/play list. Make them a printed "playbook" with each song, in order, stapled together at the corner.

I would start with your BEST tune, not necessarily a fast or peppy one. Don't assume the audience will know all the tunes -- announce the name of each one, with a bit of background if you can.

Just a few thoughts while floating on the river aboard the s/v ManCave thinking about what I'm going to perform at Monday's Open Mic...

Mix up the fast, faster, slower and slowest tunes. Playing two slow pieces back to back isn't bad, but make sure there's a peppier piece on either side of them. Same things with tunes that may have "down" connotations or words; they should be followed by something more upbeat. For example Streets of Laredo and St. James Infirmary should not follow each other. Both are beautiful tunes but the subject matter in both is depressing (death & dying).

Make sure you really DO play tunes at different speeds; many groups have a tendency for all the songs to slump down to a common, below normal, speed.

Start and finish with songs your audience will know by heart -- tunes from the 1940s - 1960s. You Are My Sunshine is always good. Also Tennessee Waltz and Danny Boy. A mixture of folk and popular tunes with a hymn or two like Amazing Grace and Simple Gifts thrown in goes over well. Mix up the "ethnicity" of the songs too -- American, English, Celtic, etc. Do, please be aware of copyright and performance rights issues. Public domain songs are the best, always. You can play Aura Lea, which the audience may recognize as Love Me Tender, but tell them Elvis "borrowed" a much older, public domain tune, and wrote his own words for it. There are several other examples

Playing songs alphabetically is. frankly, a bit weird. Number the songs as they will fit in the set/play list. Make them a printed "playbook" with each song, in order, stapled together at the corner.

I would start with your BEST tune, not necessarily a fast or peppy one. Don't assume the audience will know all the tunes -- announce the name of each one, with a bit of background if you can.

Just a few thoughts while floating on the river aboard the s/v ManCave thinking about what I'm going to perform at Monday's Open Mic...

What are things to consider when making a playlist for performance. we are a small dulcimer group and have been invited to perform for a senior group. I am not asking what songs to play. I know to consider for whom you are playing, what is their event such as valentine day etc. I am really asking what kind of song to start with (peppy I assume), how to build up the interest, what kind of song to finish with, what kind of songs should not follow each other ( such as two very slow ones etc) and whateverelse I may be forgetting to think about. For convenience, our group wants to play alphabetically. They are very dependent on the paper. I think there is a better way and a much more interesting playlist. Thanks for your help.

Here's a couple to start the ball rolling ! I met a busker playing a HD, we got talking, and he said when given his instrument by an elderly relative all the strings were rusty, so he had restrung it, but now had a job keeping it in tune. On examination it was plain to see that he had 'wound on' the strings the wrong way, so as he attempted to tighten a string he was raising the tuning pin. I took him back to our place, my wife fed him, and I restrung his dulcimer, and no, I did'nt put anything in his cap !!! Another story which I have mentioned on this site before, a friend purchased a Ledford dulcimer at a knock down price, only trouble was it resembled one of Charlie Chaplins boots ! Top and back just holding at the head, completely free of sides and tail, one side only holding at the tail. Long story short, pleased to say it finished almost as new (I posted a vid of me playing it on this site) That friend is John Shaw, currently in the USA, catch him at the Lincoln Theatre, Marion, Virginia if you can, well worth hearing !

JohnH

As a luthier, I've run across several dulcimers that have needed major repairs done. Some of them were my own! I think of the time I sprayed finish on one and had it hanging upside down to dry. Only it didn't stay hanging -- it fell and busted its head on the floor! Fortunately I could piece the splintered wood back together again, and the repair is almost unnoticeable.

I'm sure some of you builders have "tales of woe and intrigue" regarding old or damaged dulcimers that have looked almost beyond hope of saving. How about sharing one or two?

Jerry, I like it!

Howdy Folks:

I wanted to let you know about my new mountain dulcimer blog. After some months of frustration with Blogger, which is very outdated these days, I have nestled myself in at wordpress.com and I'm reading WordPress - the missing manual, by Matthew MacDonald (highly recommended!), so I can get up to speed. Anyway, have a look at my beginnings and see what you think... I just put up a post about pentatonic scales and the mountain dulcimer:

Jerry Rockwell's Dulcimer Blog

Just wanted to add a note to this, that I found the PBS website to work better in Chrome. If you use Microsoft's browser, this pop up to set your local PBS station keeps interrupting you. Of course, if you want to set your local PBS station, it's not an issue, but if you're just looking, it's insistence that you do so an annoyance.

I stumbled upon this while looking for the lyrics/chords to this song.

This is a project to have a collection of many versions of this song. The video submissions have closed, but there appears to be no deadline for submitting covers anyway to youtube as part of this project.

I suppose all the youtube clips are collated? Anyhow, I thought members here might be inspired to submit their own version of this song -

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/this-land/mission-statement/

Joy To The World is fun on mountain dulcimer. Good King Wenceslas is another one played around Christmas. The Friendly Beasts is another one.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Glad you liked them Ruth

"On Christmas Night" is better known as 'The Sussex Carol', here's Maddy Prior.

Plays really well in Noter/Drone.

Thanks for the suggestions, especially for the unfamiliar ones mentioned by John P. I don't know Il Est Nee or The Rebel Jesus either. I'll track those down.

Thanks for the suggestions, especially for the unfamiliar ones mentioned by John P. I don't know Il Est Nee or The Rebel Jesus either. I'll track those down.

john's right. Most of the "church" carols and Christmas songs are folk-based.

Hark is pretty nice if you take it a bit up tempo. But Jingle Bells, Chestnuts and that modern stuff just doesn't make it. Here's a list of Christmas music I just assembled, since I'm re-making my Giant List of Tunes I Know.

Away in a Manger

Il Est Nee

I Saw Three Ships

Hark The Herald Angels

We Three Kings of Orient Are

God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen

Silent Night (originally performed as a single guitar accompaniment to a solo voice in 1818)

It Came Upon A Midnight Clear

Oh Holy Night

Oh Come All Ye Faithful

I also do Once in Royal David's City and Dona Nobis Pacem, but they are more "classical" music in form, not folk. I do the modernLittle Drummer Boy with a striker. My favorite modern Christmas song is The Rebel Jesus by Jackson Brown, and it plays well on dulcimer.

Hi Ruth,

I think a lot of the older carols were originally folk tunes, it's the more modern 'composed' ones that are 'churchified'.

One of my favourites for dulcimer is "On Christmas night, the angels Sing", sounds like a Morris tune to me if ever there was one.

'Sans Day' carol and 'Down in Yon Forest' are a couple of other good one.

Hello, I am hoping for suggestions of suitable Christmas music that is still sort of folk style.

I am having trouble imagining traditional carols like Hark the Herald Angels or even christmas songs like Jingle Bells and Chestnuts Roasting on an Open Fire (wahtever it's called) played by an acoustic ensemble made up of dulcimer, guitar, autoharp, fiddle and doublebass. But maybe I am limiting myself?

Helen, I love to hear of all these musical adventures of yours! Wewant a little beginner sample vid of you playing a few simple tones on your didge.... soon! No need for perfection...we just want to see you starting out on it!

Look on youtube - there are loads of videos of people playing didges while simultaneously playing other instruments. It looked to me fairly easy to make a stand to hold the didge in a comfortable position so you can just press your mouth to it when you want to play.

Hardest part of course is learning to play. It's easy enough to make it sound, and put rhythm into it too. But conquering the circular breathing is a nightmare. I've got to say I failed !

Helen, that would be a tall order! I can see doing something with a foot, but given the clumsiness of holding a didgeridoo, I don't know how doing anything else with the hands would be manageable. There IS a travel didgeridoo made of a square block that could possibly be mounted to a stand...hmmmm...

My mind is already working on some sort of a 'holder' which might allow the playing of your didge at the same time a dulcimer................... Do you have a choice of 'keys' ? This is a truth; I used to play in a pub session wherea

guy often turned up with THREE, and they were all different !

look forward to you posting soon???

John

That's great! I love my didgeridoos (or didgeridi?)!

Thanks Ken. Looks like a good resource.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

That is a great resource! Thanks Ken!!!

Just discovered this online collection. If you love American folk music you owe it to yourself to vist and at least scroll through the titles.

http://kodaly.hnu.edu/

contact the Ozark Mtn Folk Center in Mtn View. someone there might help you