Forum Activity for @benjamin-w-barr-jr

It would help to know what the acronym NGFDA stands for.

Hi! Yes. DAD you are tuned to the key of D mixolydian, and if you have a 6.5 fret you can also play in the key of D major (AKA D Ionian). In DAD you can also play in the Key of G Major pretty easily using your 3rd fret as your tonic (home base). But if you are using a noter drone style of playing, then you will want to tune to DAA if you want to use your 3rd fret as your tonic in the key of D, but if you are chording, then there is no need to retune.

Tumbleweed, "Blowin' in the Wind" can definitely be played on a diatonic fretboard, and the vast majority of Hank Williams tunes can, too. If you need help figuring out a particular part of a song, why not ask for help in the Help Me Learn this Song group? Start a new discussion including the title of the song and explain the part you can't figure out. I'm sure another FOTMD will help out.

Just one minor point of clarification. If you are tuned DAd, your dulcimer is indeed in an open D tuning. However, if you play chords and fret across all the strings, it is possible to play in other keys out of that tuning. Bm is the most obvious, but there are lots of arrangements in G out of the DAd tuning, and it is also possible to play well in A. (Gary Gallier has developed a whole bunch of arrangements in A out of the DAd tuning, something he calls "cross key" after the way blues harmonica players plays blues on a harmonica that is technically a fourth below the key they play in.) You cannot play noter/drone in these other keys since the drone strings are locked in the open tuning.

Your question about that "one little note" that you can't find is probably not a matter of keys, but, as Ken indicates, of modes. The dulcimer has a diatonic fretboard, meaning not every note is possible. If you are indeed playing "newer songs" those songs may not be written in the traditional modes. You might be able to find that "one little note" on a string other than the melody string, and you might be able to find it by bending a string. But just changing keys won't really help.

Hi Tumbleweed;

Tuning/Key-- yes, if you are tuned DAd you're in the key of D, as we say. The dulcimer's keynote is D. If you are tuned CGc you are in the key of C and the dulcimer's keynote is C. In both cases you are tuned to Mixolydian Mode.

If you "can't find a note" changing the key may help. Remaining in the same key, but changing the modal tuning may also help. A tune like Star of County Down can't be played properly (it can be faked, with varying degrees of success) in DAd or DAA tuning, but is played perfectly simply in DAG -- Dorian Mode key of D. Each Mode has a slightly different scale, not the usual Do, Re, Mi that you can play in DAd or DAA with/without the 6+ fret.

Hi Everybody:

I have search the site and read a few posts but I still have a question that I am sure has been asked many times before so here it goes:

I understand the difference between keys and modes but don't have a lot of music theory. If I am tuning to DADD am I in the key of D? If I am tuned to CGCC am I in the key of C? I like to learn new songs in noter style and sometimes have to figure it out by ear as there are no tabs for newer songs that I want to play. Once I am proficient I like to spice it up with chords. I am doing alright mostly until I get to just one little note in one area of a song and can't seem to find the right note. If I tune to another key would I fix the problem? Sometimes I have to dip down but this doesn't always solve it. Any responses will be appreciated but I don't have a lot of music theory terminology in my vocabulary so y'all may need to speak in simple terms for me. Thanks for reading.

TW

A varient of that picture is in Bonnie Carol's "Fingerdances for Dulcimer" book, but it says it's from 1979. Doug Berch and Marc Nelson should be in there somewhere. I believe Joellen Lapidus is beside Kevin Roth. Fred Meyer could be on pur left of Alan. Of course Bonnie Carol is on the far right, second from the bottom.

I believe that 2 of my then dulcimer students--Robin Mohun and Gail Larsen--went to this festival and had a very good time!

Peter

Sorry, I meant to say "Dulcimer History", I have Bowed Psaltery on my brain constantly.

Was just told Robert Force is on the right looking at the picture. Hei just below and to the right of the guy in orange t -shirt and blue shorts. This cool hope we can name some more.

Gregg, I thought this was a cool picture and there would be some who recognized a few folks. Thanks for posting some of the names. Maybe a reunion of some of these folks could happen.

Two people to the left of Hubbert is Leo Kretzner standing next to David Beede standing next to Kevin Roth. Directly above Beede is me Gregg E. Schneeman, wearing my fur lined knit cap holding up my Bowed Psaltery and my Mushroom Headed Dulcimer you see in my FOTMD profile picture. That was a significant moment in Bowed Psaltery History and I am proud to have been there.

Found this and wondered if there might be any FOTMD members in this picture.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10203580035116097&set=a.2348861075588.2123751.1071924118&type=1&theater

Thank you all for this. I looked on both sites for the Stew-Mac kits and they were never mentioned. It's probably food to have this up somewhere so others can reference it. I like the David Lynch idea. Really appreciate you guys commenting, it's just amazing how quickly the info showed up! I hope I can help others out too as I get more into this.

You could also consider the "Sweet Song" kits from McSpadden. I've made several, and they all turned out very nicely.

stew/mac kits have been made by folkcraft for years. they are good kits

Cynthia, I took a look and read the instructions at the Stew-Mac website.

http://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Kits/Dulcimer/Dulcime...

It appears that Stew-Mac is reselling the Folkcraft Walnut Kits since the instrucktions are labeled Folkcraft. The Ratings and Reviews on the Stew-Mac are mixed (overall 3.5 out of 5).

If I were going to have someone build a kit for me, I would have him look at both the Stew-Mac and Folkcraft sites to make a final decision. Here is the Folkcraft link.

http://www.folkcraft.com/appalachian-dulcimer-kits.html

If you are looking for your first dulcimer, I would recommend a student dulcimer from our member, David Lynch.

http://www.strothers.com/sweetwoodsinstruments.com/index.html

This is only my humble opinion and I hope that others will chime in. Welcome to FOTMD, Cynthia and enjoy the journey in the wonderfull world of the mountain dulcimer.

Dan

Someone has offered to build me one of these who has built beautiful guitars before but wants experience building a dulcimer from a kit. He said that if I bought the kit he would build it, but I can't find anyone who knows anything about this kit. If he is willing to build a decent dulcimer for me, I'd like to get a great kit that he could feel good about too, good instructions, quality materials etc. So, does anyone anywhere have any experience with this particular kit? Thank you for reading this.

An additional note to add to Ken's explanation - I always tab for both D-A-dd and D-A-AA for our dulcimer club tunes ,but I always show tab for all three strings, even though all of our tunes can be played on just the melody string or with chords, as desired. This is the first time I've seen tab like this, with only the top two strings shown for each. I can't say I get around very much, but in my experience this isn't a very common tab style.

In a comment on my I Just Got A Dulcimer, Now What? blog, Evy Bush asked:

I understand how to read all the tablature except the ones that are set up like this one where you can choose between DAD or DAA.

I just can't make sense of which strings are which because any way I look at it they don't fall in order. Can anyone explain this for me? Thanks! I, sure it is something very simple that I am somehow missing.

Here's a link to an example: http://www.everythingdulcimer.com/tab/amazingddul.pdf "

The subject comes up fairly often so I thought I'd answer publicly, so others can benefit.

The link is to Amazing Grace posted by RLWalker:

The top two lines, marked AD are for those who are tuned to DAd, and represent what you, the player must fret on the Ad strings of the DAd tuning.

The bottom two lines: DA, are for those tuned in DAA, and show you what to fret on the A melody string of the DAA tuning.

This particular illustration is the perfect example of how to "convert" DAd tab to DAA and vice versa. If you have DAd tab and want to play in DAA, simply add 3 to the d melody line numbers and play the new numbers on the A melody line in DAA. If you run into a 6+ fret notation in DAd, play that as a fret 9 in DAA.

"Ooh that dulcimer has a mean tone!"

Jerry says above that "it is not always possible to have on fret go across the fingerboard," but many luthiers are recognizing that and are making "true tempered" fretboards that look real funky:

You can find out more at True Temperament Fretting System .

As Dusty Turtle say, this is NOT a dumb question!! It is a question which opens up many doors, and once you start opening the doors, you will have more and more questions. This is basically the large field of "Tunings and Temperaments" or sometimes referred to as "Microtunings" or "microtonality" -- basically all pointing to the whole idea of notes in between the keys of a piano (or smaller than a half-step).

There is some great discussion here, and many of you seem to have a good handle on the overall, general ideas of where frets might go. I particularly resonate with the single string stretched across a board of some sort, where you map out the divisions of the string - which will give you the harmonic series. If you get the harmonic series: dividing a string into 2 (2nd harmonic), 3 (3rd harmonic), 4 (4th harmonic), 5 (5th harmonic), 6 (6th harmonic), 7 (7th harmonic), and so on----then you can see how easy it is to build a just-intonation scale based on VERY simple small-integer ratios:

1/1 - 9/8 - 5/4 - 4/3 - 3/2 - 5/3 - 15/8 - 2/1

These would correspond to the frequency ratios of C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C ---- if you want fret spacing for your dulcimer's bass string (this is for 6+ fret only here - computing the normal 6th fret is another ballgame), you would use the inverse of these (frequency is inversely proportional to string length), remembering that the string length is the distance from each fret to the Bridge. To get your distance from the nut to a fret, just subtract that from the open nut-to-bridge V.S.L.

Another very important thing to remember on the dulcimer is that -- in C - G - G (1 - 5 - 5 Ionian) Tuning, the middle and melody strings will NOT go up EXACTLY as the bass string, because they are tuned to the 5th of the scale (so you start from 3/2 at the nut on these strings, and this time you will have the natural 6th fret and NOT the 6+). So, I'm basically saying here that it is not possible ALWAYS to have one fret go all across the fingerboard like they do on guitars, banjos, and modern dulcimers.

The wikipedia entry on just intonation is superb on deriving all this:

just intonation

I really need to get around to making some sort of an adjustable-fret dulcimer -- individually adjustable frets for each string. Of course one way around this is to use bagpipe tuning 1 - 8 - 8 (I know this works well for just tuning because my 1966 Jethro Amburgey is pretty close to just tuning and bagpipe tuning ROCKS on this!). Sorry about all the detail and ratios, but it really comes down to this kind of stuff, and there are many, many worthwhile web sites to help you get it.

I may be able to answer your questions, or at least I may be able to point the way to some good web resources. Thanks for the great thread!! BTW, I'm a major fan of Equal Temperament, mostly because I play a lot of chords and want to be in tune with keyboard synthesizers.

And by the way, this is not a "dumb question" at all but in fact a very complicated one that involves mathematics, acoustics, and other sciences about which most musicians (including wannabees like myself) are entirely ignorant.

James, the conversation that Strumelia links to will indeed help you understand the difference between mean tone and equal temperament as they pertain to the dulcimer, and Peter's explanation also offers more than I can.

But let me just explain the problem that these two fretting systems try to address. It is sometimes said that G-d invented the octave and the fifth and humans invented all the other notes. Imagine a string tightened over a soundbox with no frets. Obviously, if you stop the vibration exactly half way along the string, you will get an octave of the open string. But between that open string and the octave, how many notes should there be? Different cultures answer that question differently. Some have 5 notes, for example. In western music, a chromatic scale has 12 notes and a diatonic scale has 7 notes. But where along that open string would you put them? It turns out that placing those notes along the string is not as simple as it seems, and exactly where they go would actually depend upon the note they are tuned in relation to. That is why in John's discussion Robin talks about placing frets not in relation to the open string, but in relation to the fretted tonic note.

So if you were fretting an instrument to be played in only one key, you could do a great job of placing those frets so that the notes would all sound great in relation to one another. But if you tried to play in a different key, they would sound off. Equal temperament tuning tries to basically split the difference and create note placements that are equally off in all keys, but hopefully close enough so that most of us can't hear the dissonance.

Here is a mathematical explanation of all of this: http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/52470.html . The first response by Dr. Toby might be all you need, but the conversation there goes on for some length.

Hi James,

I just stumbled upon an older blog post by John Henry that discusses mean tone fretting, it might help explain!:

http://mountaindulcimer.ning.com/profiles/blogs/mean-tone-fretting

I have a dumb question but exactly what is mean tone, and how does it relate to the dulcimer? I know the sound is different and that is about all I know. Best,

The Dulcimer Shop in Blowing Rock was started by Rogers McGee, and is now run by his son, Bill. It's a small shop but has a nice variety of items for its size. And Bill and company are friendly folks who'll chat with you all you want, as long as you give them a break when paying customers walk in!

High Country Dulcimers in Foscoe / Boone appears larger in it's website photos. I haven't been to their shop, but my wife as dealt with Mac McKinney over the years with various Girl Scout projects, and they, too, seem like nice people.

I'm sure both would be nice stops on your trip, but you might want to check their websites or call for their hours.

If you do plan to stop back in Black Mountain, besides Song of the Wood you might want to see if Tom Fellenbaum is around at Acoustic Corner , just around the corner from Jerry's shop. Tom's workshop is next door to the shop and he isn't always in, but you might be able to find out when you could visit. He doesn't usually have many instruments available to buy "right now", but hey, he's dulcimer folk! Another good guy to visit and learn from!

Another option is to see whether Don Pedi is playing around the area. If not, you might be able to catch his radio show his show on WCQS except in Boone, where they don't have a translator. Even then, you could listen online!

I'm coming late to this discussion, but I also had noticed no comment, until Brian's, about key. Carrie, I know what you mean about folks being scared to lower a string. It's frustrating, as it isn't that hard - it just takes a bit of practice to get used to it. But, it is not necessary to retune any string to play in a different key. E minor, G major, A major and others are all pretty accessible in DAd tuning. A tune in a minor key can really help add variety to a set. Just be sure to add tunes in a variety of keys to your usual playbook so you can insert them in a set list. Have fun!

Linda

www.cabinhillmusic.com

One thing I don't believe I saw mentioned yet is key. As in, vary the key of the tunes you are playing. An entire performance in D can get old pretty quickly, even if you are varying tempo, mood, etc. And you don't even necessarily have to retune (I mention that only because is seems there are some people/groups who can't stand the idea of retuning out of DAD or DAA), just play in a key other than D. Your audience will appreciate it. :)

One thing I don't believe I saw mentioned yet is key. As in, vary the key of the tunes you are playing. An entire performance in D can get old pretty quickly, even if you are varying tempo, mood, etc. And you don't even necessarily have to retune (I mention that only because is seems there are some people/groups who can't stand the idea of retuning out of DAD or DAA), just play in a key other than D. Your audience will appreciate it. :)

Thanks to everyone for the great suggestions. Sorry, I do not have veto power. I can suggest but suggestion may not be taken. It seems like some want to just have one book, the practice book, alphabetical, and then put tabs where the songs are to be played for the next performance. (Don't ask me why. I agree--makes no sense).We always end up waiting for someone to find the next tune while the walk-by audience is moving on.

I would like to have a couple of basic play lists, with the tunes printed in playing order. Then add to or subtract from the chosen list as time or event dictates. But others do not wish to copy songs they already have or to have more than one book. And definitely do not rearrange the book.

I am looking for more on what should and should not follow another and the over all look of the program.

We try to add things to make the songs more interesting such as train whistle on Ruben's tain or another instrument such as banjo on appropriate tunes. I like the idea of silly songs and will look for some of those. Some audiences like to sing with your playing more than others. So we try to be sure to include tunes they will probably know.

Being flexible is a good idea and keep working to improve.

Thanks, everyone.

Ken Hulme said:

Dusty has a good additional category of song to throw in the mix -- humorous or silly songs. Abigail , Side by Side , Five Constipated Men , Hole In The Bucket , even a funny rendition of Darlin' Clementine or Oh Susannah can really wake up an audience.

I think it's wise for everyone to have a "set list" of at least half a dozen songs that are practiced and well developed. A long time ago I had a single page that listed something like 200 songs that I know, plus their opening measures. I'd get in a jam circle and blank out when it came my turn to lead a tune, so I created that page as a memory aid. Well the original is long gone, but earlier this week I decided to recreate that list to help me pick out tunes to play at a weekly Open Mic I attend. Still adding to the list...

Dusty has a good additional category of song to throw in the mix -- humorous or silly songs. Abigail, Side by Side, Five Constipated Men, Hole In The Bucket, even a funny rendition of Darlin' Clementineor Oh Susannah can really wake up an audience.

I think it's wise for everyone to have a "set list" of at least half a dozen songs that are practiced and well developed. A long time ago I had a single page that listed something like 200 songs that I know, plus their opening measures. I'd get in a jam circle and blank out when it came my turn to lead a tune, so I created that page as a memory aid. Well the original is long gone, but earlier this week I decided to recreate that list to help me pick out tunes to play at a weekly Open Mic I attend. Still adding to the list...

I have run across the same alphabetical order weirdness with a local group, so your group isn't the only one. It might only be for practice though, not sure if they will do it at a performance. The reason given was so folks could all find the songs quickly. Seemed pretty weird to me. I figure that the binders don't have the songs in alphabetical order any way and if folks have to arrange the pages they could just as well arrange them in any order. I will just go with the flow on this one though.

Yeah, you should just veto the idea of playing songs alphabetically. Decide on a set list and arrange the music or tab in that order and no one will have a problem.

I think Ken hit on the main points above. Try to vary tempo, subject matter, playing style, songs with vocals and instrumentals, and so forth.

I just recently began putting together a set list for myself. Oh no, not because I have a gig, but because I like to fantasize that someday I'll get a gig. And I've begun to practice the set in order so that I know how long things run. I have put a couple of slow, fingerpicked tunes back-to-back on a couple of occasions, but as Ken suggests, I make sure they are couched in between upbeat, flatpicked tunes. I also like to pepper things with silly, nonsensical tunes here and there just to keep things lighthearted.

Thank you so much. Lots of good ideas there. Have fun on your float done the river. Sounds like a great place to be.

Ken Hulme said:

Mix up the fast, faster, slower and slowest tunes. Playing two slow pieces back to back isn't bad, but make sure there's a peppier piece on either side of them. Same things with tunes that may have "down" connotations or words; they should be followed by something more upbeat. For example Streets of Laredo and St. James Infirmary should not follow each other. Both are beautiful tunes but the subject matter in both is depressing (death & dying).

Make sure you really DO play tunes at different speeds; many groups have a tendency for all the songs to slump down to a common, below normal, speed.

Start and finish with songs your audience will know by heart -- tunes from the 1940s - 1960s. You Are My Sunshine is always good. Also Tennessee Waltz and Danny Boy . A mixture of folk and popular tunes with a hymn or two like Amazing Grace and Simple Gifts thrown in goes over well. Mix up the "ethnicity" of the songs too -- American, English, Celtic, etc. Do, please be aware of copyright and performance rights issues. Public domain songs are the best, always. You can play Aura Lea , which the audience may recognize as Love Me Tender , but tell them Elvis "borrowed" a much older, public domain tune, and wrote his own words for it. There are several other examples

Playing songs alphabetically is. frankly, a bit weird. Number the songs as they will fit in the set/play list. Make them a printed "playbook" with each song, in order, stapled together at the corner.

I would start with your BEST tune, not necessarily a fast or peppy one. Don't assume the audience will know all the tunes -- announce the name of each one, with a bit of background if you can.

Just a few thoughts while floating on the river aboard the s/v ManCave thinking about what I'm going to perform at Monday's Open Mic...

Mix up the fast, faster, slower and slowest tunes. Playing two slow pieces back to back isn't bad, but make sure there's a peppier piece on either side of them. Same things with tunes that may have "down" connotations or words; they should be followed by something more upbeat. For example Streets of Laredo and St. James Infirmary should not follow each other. Both are beautiful tunes but the subject matter in both is depressing (death & dying).

Make sure you really DO play tunes at different speeds; many groups have a tendency for all the songs to slump down to a common, below normal, speed.

Start and finish with songs your audience will know by heart -- tunes from the 1940s - 1960s. You Are My Sunshine is always good. Also Tennessee Waltz and Danny Boy. A mixture of folk and popular tunes with a hymn or two like Amazing Grace and Simple Gifts thrown in goes over well. Mix up the "ethnicity" of the songs too -- American, English, Celtic, etc. Do, please be aware of copyright and performance rights issues. Public domain songs are the best, always. You can play Aura Lea, which the audience may recognize as Love Me Tender, but tell them Elvis "borrowed" a much older, public domain tune, and wrote his own words for it. There are several other examples

Playing songs alphabetically is. frankly, a bit weird. Number the songs as they will fit in the set/play list. Make them a printed "playbook" with each song, in order, stapled together at the corner.

I would start with your BEST tune, not necessarily a fast or peppy one. Don't assume the audience will know all the tunes -- announce the name of each one, with a bit of background if you can.

Just a few thoughts while floating on the river aboard the s/v ManCave thinking about what I'm going to perform at Monday's Open Mic...

What are things to consider when making a playlist for performance. we are a small dulcimer group and have been invited to perform for a senior group. I am not asking what songs to play. I know to consider for whom you are playing, what is their event such as valentine day etc. I am really asking what kind of song to start with (peppy I assume), how to build up the interest, what kind of song to finish with, what kind of songs should not follow each other ( such as two very slow ones etc) and whateverelse I may be forgetting to think about. For convenience, our group wants to play alphabetically. They are very dependent on the paper. I think there is a better way and a much more interesting playlist. Thanks for your help.