Forum Activity for @paul-certo

Gail, if you are looking for a specific sound you aren't finding in your current dulcimers, your best bet is to get to a few shops or festivals where you can play a number of different instruments and let your ears tell you which one you like. Play every one in your price range, and if you don't find what you want, save up till you can increase your price limit. It's not only one of life's great pleasures to shop by ear, but probably the only way you will really find the one dulcimer that you just have to own. Sooner or later one dulcimer will refuse to let you leave without it.

Carolyn, No one is saying that the wood isn't important in making an instrument, any instrument. There are woods that I would choose over others. I wouldn't want to make an instrument out of balsa, for example. Two of my constructions have been made of cherry with western red cedar soundboards, though. The sound difference is dramatic, one is high, light, and sweet, the other has more of a mellow modern guitar type of sound. The first instrument is a traditional construction of the bridge resting on the fretboard but directly over the tail piece with a small shallow body. The bridge is about 5/8" away from the end of the instrument. The second is build with the bridge resting on the fretboard but way in (about 3 ") over a very large (wide and deep) sound box. Same woods, but the tone or voice of the instruments is totally different.

Carolyn - read David's explanation at the bottom of the previous page. No one says that the kind of wood in a dulcimer is not important. It's just not the most important factor in making dulcimer (or violin) sound the way many people have believed. There are many other things that a builder can do that will influence the sound quality more than the choice of wood species. It wasn't the wood that Antonio Stradivari used that made his violins so much better than others. It was many other things, including mineral treatments, varnish formula and more. There are perfectly good or better dulcimers and violins that are made from cardboard, plastic, even metal.

The wood is important in a violin why not a dulcimer?

Thanks Lisa, Ken and Kevin. Kevin, I'll sure take a look at some of yours. I mainly play chord/melody on my current dulcimers, but may want to play more of the noter and drone style on the other one. I really like both styles of playing. I have messed around a little bit with the noter,but am by no means very good at it yet (posted a video a while backI did with the noter here - Sad Old Aunt Rhodie).

Gail, I am the Kevin Messenger that these kind folks have mentioned above. And thanks guys for the mention. I myself believe that build design, set up , and string selection ha much to do with the tonal outcome of the instrument. I build mainly with poplar ,like a lot of the early builders did. I like the earthy tone of poplar. I use piano wire strings, that I make myself, the seem to have a brighter sound, more sustain, and just ring like a bell. Robin Clark a member here has many audio, and video files ,of him playing one of my Prichard reproductions. Take a listen and see if this is the sound you are looking for. The instrument has quite a range. You can also take a look on my website , www.kevinmessengermountaindulcimers.net and look at some of my instruments. Thanks again for the mention guys.

Kevin.

Second, and thrid Lisa's recommendation to take up Noter & Drone style when you get that narrow/shallow, high-silvery sounding dulcimer (or even before). The singing of the drones is, IMVHO a great part of that sound.

Gail Webber said:

I guess that high silvery sound is really what I am looking for.

Of course, to really bring out a 'silvery' effect, you'd want to try playing with a noter- that's where the bestest zzziiiiiiiiing! comes from.

I guess that high silvery sound is really what I am looking for. It sounds like a number of factors affect the sound. John, I have never been to Song of the Wood shop in Black Mountain, but want to go. I got my current regular McSpadden from The Dulcimer Shop in Blowing Rock. It was nice because I just kept playing different ones (as much as I could back in December) and found one pleasing to my ear.

As I have indicated in more than one post, I think that the sounds one hears from one's dulcimer may quite well be viewed as 'Subjective' even tho' we may start out looking for an objective result ! After years of noise from woodworking machinery and associated construction site noise, I know only too well how tinitus can interfer with things !!! On the positive side, it may make my playing sound better than it is, to me at least !!!

JohnH

Mike A ! again as said before, I grew up in the construction industry in the days when one's claw hammer became an extension of the arm, and six inch round steel nails formed an important part of a joint in some timber constructions, so yes, I drove steel !

Descriptions of sound are subject to variation based on people's definitions of things. To one person, a 'traditional sound' may mean bright and high...to another it might mean sweet and quiet. So rather than my attempting to define what is a 'traditional sound', I simply say that soft soundboards (spruce etc) and larger/deeper soundboxes usually produce rounder more mellow tones, while shallow/smaller soundboxes and hardwoods tend to produce a crisper brighter sound.

No one denies that wood is one factor in the kind/quality of sound in a dulcimer.

IMHO and that of many others, who are also builders, it is not the most important factor in the creation of that sound quality. There are other variables which can be scientifically proven to influence sound quality to a greater degree. Most notably cubic volume of the sound body.

This can be proven with a simple experiment involving a narrow necked bottle of glass and another of plastic, and some water. Begin with empty containers and blow across the mouths of said containers. Now fill each container 1/4 full with water and repeat. Do the same with half and three-quarter fillings. Larger volumes produce more bass/baritone/mellow sounds than do smaller volumes, regardless of material of the sound body.

Chuckle! I repeat, just my experience talking there Wayne , nothing written in ' Tablets of Stone'.Horses for courses as it were ! If you have the time (and/or inclination) have a listen to the vids posted of the epinettes I have made. The very first one I constructed was all cherry, 'cos the little reseach I did indicatedit should be of a fruit wood, I did'nt like the sound of that at all, almost muted .One for the bin !!! Succeding ones have all had soundboards from the same piece of Doug. Fir, with Hon. Mahog bodies, identical everything else,except for a much brighter sound , (in my opinion !!!)

Thanks for the good wishes, some slight improvement on the home front, have got systems in place which seem to work, tho' still seem to have very full days , lol, and continue to have to snatch moments to visit here and catch up with things. Have enjoyed the luxury of having a grand daughter help out for a couple of days, was able to play a bit , first real go at it since Christmas, but have not managedto find thetime to record anything yet. I reckon I shall be in the 'beginners' class all over again soon !

best wishes

John

I have worked with timber for many years, including the construction of various musical instruments. I agree that factors such as size/volume, string selection, bridge position, nut and bridge materials used, greatly influence perceived resultant sound. I also hold the opinion that the type of timber used, particularly for the soundboard "makes a difference", and in my experience if I was setting out to achieve a less mellow sound I would go for a medium density, straight grained quarter sawn softwood, such as Douglas Fir or similar, something showing a pronounced difference between its spring and summer growth. I went to my workshop just now and did a simple 'knuckle knock' test on more or less similar sized pieces of Mahog, Poplar, Walnut, Ash, Cedar, Maple and D. Fir. No doubt in my mind timbers which gave the 'brighter' sound ! That decidedly unscientific 'test' does'nt make me 'right' , but would influence the type of dulcimer I might buy should I not be making it.

Then of course, there are instruments made of plywood (veneers if you want to be fancy). Hmmmmmmmmmm.....

different ball game there......nothing wrong with 'em, just diff. ???

(sorry if that caused confusion Gail, I have'nt posted much lately, and being 'off duty' for a couple of days I am enjoying a bit of 'me' time' )

good luck in your search

JohnH

Song of the Wood in Black Mountain is a great shop, and you can play every dulcimer in there as long as you need to.

Thanks for all of your input. I guess the best thing to do for now is to just listen to as many different ones as possible - I listen to a lot of the recordings here and on YouTube. When my budget allows, I'll try to visit some dulcimer shops here in North Carolina and play various ones. I live about 2 1/2 hours away from both Blowing Rock and Black Mountain and they both have shops.

I couldn't agree more. Wood choice can be just as important as the size and depth of the instrument. The density of woods like walnut or cherry (or the like) has provided that traditional sound for many years. The caution comes when selecting a wood that is possibly too dense. Ebony looks great (and is expensive), but a dulcimer made of a dense wood like ebony would sound like a brick with strings on it. If you ever have a chance, sit down and play multiple dulcimers in one sitting made of as many materials (and shapes, sizes, etc.) as possible. That is the best way to determine what your ear is truly looking for...hearing it right in your lap!

Dusty Turtle said:

A dulcimer made entirely of walnut or some other hard wood will have a slightly more traditional sound.

I am one of those people who like the soft, round, guitar-y sounds of non-traditional dulcimers, but I think I know what you mean, Gail. You want that bright, high silvery sound rather than the soft, round, mellow sound.

One thing to do would be to get a dulcimer without a softwood for the soundboard. Both of your dulcimers have spruce, which is the standard soundboard wood for guitars. A dulcimer made entirely of walnut or some other hard wood will have a slightly more traditional sound. But folkfan is correct thatdesign factors other than wood type have a greater influence on tone quality. A smaller box, for example, is more traditional than the larger boxes of modern dulcimers like Blue Lion. For another example, check out this David Beede demo of his "de-coupled" tailpiece:

Many luthiers, such as FOTMD member Kevin Messenger,consciously try to make replicas of traditional dulcimers. Other luthiers, such as David at Modern Mountain Dulcimer, consicously try to make big round-sounding dulcimers appropriate for modern multi-instrument jams.

My advice would be to listen to dulcimer players, and when you hear one that has the sound you like, as who made it and what the design specs are. Most luthiers have their own specialties, but they are also willing to work with you to get you the dulcimer of your dreams. Keep your eyes and ears open so you can best explain what that is.

What Folkfan said --- volume of the box has much more to do with that 'high silvery' sound of a traditional dulcimer. Wood choice has very little to do with the tone of the instrument, in spite of urban legends to thecontrary.

If you want a traditional sounding dulcimer you want one of much smaller dimensions -- say 5-6" at the widest, and 1.5" at the deepest. The bridge should be at or near the tailpiece for best sustain.

Another thing that helps the older sound is to get rid of your heavy wound bass string and use a plain wound of slightly smaller gauge.

Look at Bobby Ratliff's Slate Creek Dulcimers -- his Virginia Hogfiddles are perfect examples. I own one of his Sow models with some slight modifications. If you aren't a Noter & Drone player he could probably be convinced to install full width frets.

Kevin Messenger and John Knopf here also make vintage dulcimer reproductions which have that traditional high-silvery sound. But again, they normally feature staple frets only under the melody strings. I haven't played one of Kevin's but I do own one of John's Uncle Ed Thomas reproductions, and the only fault I find is that he uses stapler frets and they just aren't as tall as I would prefer.

The volume of the sound box has more to do with voice of an instrument than the wood it's made of, all other construction being the same. If you want a traditional sound: high, light, silver, try getting an instrument that has a smaller box: narrower and shallower, the bridge should be located at the end over the tail piece, and perhaps an all the same wood construction, all walnut, all cherry, all poplar.

Gail, I'm with Mike on this one, what would you consider a more traditional sound? To me the McSpadden is a very traditional sounding instrument. Most of my instruments have a far more mellow sound than the McSpadden. Of course, style of play has a great deal to do with a traditional sound. What is your playing style?

Mike, I guess I mean one with a less mellow and brighter sound. I know a lot of the sound has to do with the woods used, but also wanted to try one from an individual builder.

I have been playing for about 7 months. I currently have a McSpadden dulcimer with cherry back and sides and a spruce top, and a McSpadden Ginger dulcimer with walnut back and sides and a spruce top. I really like both of these and both have a really nice sound. Both have more of a mellow sound. I am thinking about adding another dulcimer sometime in the near future and would like one made by an individual builder, perhaps with a more traditional sound. I would appreciate any input anyone can give with ones you may have.

There is a sweet spot on each fret right behind the fret. If you get too far behind the fret, or right on top of it, you get a less clear sound, distortion, buzz, etc. I think playing very slowly and cleanly especially when practicing up tempo songs yields the best results. I do think that muscle memory is important. Whether you are playing chord shapes or with a noter, your body gets used to playing on the sweet spots if you practice right. That's why it takes a bit of getting used to when I change dulcimers with a different VSL. So I think watching the fret board is very important until you get to a point where you are able to play cleanly without watching... sort of wean yourself off of it. Obviously if you are learning a song from tab or sheet music, you aren't as concerned with performance, but after its been memorized, unless your playing is somewhat advanced, I recommend watching what you are doing so that you don't practice something you don't want to be playing. But this is just how I play... everyone is different of course. When using the dulcimer to accompany a vocal, it's nice to not have the head looking down all the time, especially if performing.

I do on all the fretted instrument that I play.....I'm am perfectionist .....and control freak .....

It's right in front of you - why would you not look at it? Many other instruments of course you play reading from sheet music, so you can't look at your instrument. I've come across people who can't play their violins unless there's a music stand in front of them with the music on, but when you watch them most of the time they're not looking at it and even have their eyes closed - but take the music away and they can't play!

Also the dulcimer is mostly played to oneself while pianos etc are often being `performed' for others. Does it really matter, just do what you're comfortable doing.

Dean - I think thatif you switch your question around you will have the answer. Ask yourself: "What makesfolks NOT look at the fretboard? "Traditionally the instrument would have been played by ear, mostly for personal or family entertainment (ie not withmusic or TAB orfor an audience or withother band members or a conductor). Quite simply, there was no reason NOT to look down at the instrument. Those of us who play mostly by ear at home are likely to look down at the fretboard more than those who use TAB or music or who play with other musicians orplay gigs. Not looking down is a learned skillso there has to be some intrinsic motivation to cause that learning to take place.

I have noticed in myself that I look down at the fretboard when I play most of the time and that my playing is based on visual pattern movement. However, when learning a new piece from music I follow the music and play by feel (missing the odd fret and looking at the big jumps) - because the skill of not looking is useful when reading music. When I play in a string band (quite regularly), I will perhaps look down when soloing but look up and around at the other players when playing backing - because the skill of not looking down is really useful when playing with others. So it is the demands of thecontex the will drive whether or not a player hasneeded to learnto play head up or head down - and I think that has come across in all the previous replies to your question. If you play by music or TAB you will need to not look at the fretboard. If you play with others you will need to, at times, not look at the fretboard. If you play by ear primarily for yourself then learning the skill of not looking is not important.

Right from the very earliest days of mountain dulcimer playing you will see this reflected in photos:

Ed Thomas strumming away on a porch somewhere, lost in his music and......looking down He had no reason to learn to do otherwise

Dean Patrick Preising said:

.....I still find it interesting when I look at pictures, most people are staring intently down at the fret board, while people playing other instruments are not.

Dean

And she drove the car? Over here (Holland) it is enough using your cell phone for the police tostop you...

I know exactly why I myself sort of have to look at the fretboard when i play dulcimer ... when I play banjo, not only are my fingertips pressing on the fretboard, but my left hand or at least my thumb, is curled around the neck and thus giving me a physical reference point , a sense of where 'home' is for frets 1-5. Much the same as when folks plant a pinky when flatpicking across strings on mando, guitar, bluegrass banjo, and dulcimer too. Without that pinky plant, it's much harder to pick individual strings accurately when not looking- the pinky tip is the reference point. even with clawhammer banjo, most folks at least have their thumb on the back of the neck and it works well as a reference point. I can play banjo pretty well without fretboard looking, but not dulcimer.

With a mtn dulcimer, we don't have our left hand wrapping or curling around the neck for a reference point, once you go up and down the neck either fingering notes or using a noter, it's hard to know where the frets exactly are anymore. Of course this is a skill that can be developed and improved (look at highly skilled hammered dulcimer players), but most folks use the eyes becasue the physical reference point is not there as it is with necked instruments.

I know I have a terrible time when we play at night while camping, if we are playing by low lantern light and my fretboard is not getting any light at all. A good exercise is to try playingh for varying time lengths with your eyes closed....quite an education!

All that said, I'll look at my fretboard if I please to! :)

Look as much as you need to look. But not one glance more.

I still believe that too much is made of "not looking at the fret board". In a performance, what's wrong with looking at the work you are doing? Sure, you have to take your eyes off of the fret board a lot of the time, eye contact with the audience is important. Great guitarists like Jimi Hendrix, Neil Young, Bob Dylan & Keith Richards all spent time during performances looking at their fingers to get the music as perfect as can be. Young even closes his eyes on some songs for sometimes a minute at a time. If your heart is into the song, and you have confidence in your skill for this one song by preparing yourself mentally and physically, then there is no need to be worrying about staring at the fret board too long and making eye contact with the audience. It just happens. Just be your natural prepared self.

Riding a bike hands-free has to do with the gyroscopic effect of a running wheel and the bending of the fork of the front wheel combined with the center of gravity:a bottom in the saddle. That's plain physics and not being afraid... Hands-free standing in front of a traffic light with both feet on the pedals (sur place) or riding uphill standing on the pedals is almost impossible!

No need to look at the fret board is a psycho-motoric matter, createdin our brain and spine.

So, the challenge: riding a bike solo while playing the dulcimer on your lap! And watching the traffic at the same time :D

I think muscle memory isnt that important due to the diatonic fret board, special in the lower octave. There is enough space to get the right tone. The same goes to the VSL, I think. More troublesome is the retuning of the strings, which enables to play the tune right, also due to the diatonic structure.Sometimes a song needs the 5/6/6+/7 frets and a capo. Better look at the frets then

Wout

If you look at the fret board, how can you concentrate on the pretty girl in the third row?

As my old Drill Sgt. used to say,

"Ain't no use in lookin' down

Ain't no discharge on the ground."

Don't let all of us who didn't pay attention to the teacher change what you are doing. Music teachers will tell you to look at the music, not at the fret board. But try to make some eye contact with that girl.....especially if she's your wife!

Paul

Dean, let me reiterate a few points already made and add a couple of my own.

First, almost everyone will have to look at the fretboard when they first start playing. Eventually, you gain the muscle memory of where the frets are and you don't have to look as much.

Second, many of us play different instruments with different VSLs, so we can't rely on that muscle memore as much as those who play a single instrument all the time. I have five dulcimers I play regularly, only two of which are standard-sized dulcimers. The others are made to fill different tonal ranges, and their sizes vary. All five of those dulcimers have different VSLs.

Third, some songs are more complicated than others. For simple tunes played around the nut, I can play without looking at the fretboard. But other songsinvolve chords higher up the freboard and/ora lot of movement from lower frets to very high frets. It is very difficult to play those kinds of tunes without looking at the fretboard. When I play guitar, I can generally play chordal accompaniment even with bass runs and little licks without looking at what I'm doing. But if I have to take a solo, then my eyes will be glued to the fingerboard since my fingers will be moving around a lot.

Fourth, some of us don't use tab or sheet music. This might sound odd, but I learn the songs I learn. What I mean is that I use tab or music when I first learn a song, and perhpas I have to refer to that to refresh my memory of a song I haven't played ina while, but while I play I don't look at music. I find I can play faster and more precisely by concentrating solely on the fretboard and my finger placement. I don't want the distraction of looking at a piece of paper and then having to translate that paper to action on the fretboard. My fingers fretting and picking strings is all I want to think about.

What you do is your business I think many people still look at the fretboard because even though they may have been playing for years, that amounts to very few hours overall when they belong to a club that meets once a month for a copuple hours, and they don't practice in between.

The one good thing I have to say about playing from paper is that it does, at least part of the time, force the player to look at something other than the fretboard. Then you'll see the flicking eyes, like someone watching a tennis match, as they look at the page...then the fretboard...then the page...and repeat They play with their eyes rather than their ears.

Dean, I tend not to watch the fretboard as well. Since I play and sing at the same time, I usually concentrate on reading my tab for the words to the song.

I'll have an idea as to why many players would watch the fret board though. They might have more than one instrument and have varying VSL lengths. All my instruments but 2 have the same VSL lengths, which is why I tend not to play the 2 that don't. Their fret placement confuses my muscle memory. Even though one of them is only just over an inch longer as soon as I start playing it, I flub up and have to watch my finger placement. I'm a melody/drone player and so am only using one finger at a time the small difference in the VSL causes havoc with my playing.