Forum Activity for @robin-thompson

Thanks Lisa,

I've just been watching Clarence Ashley on YouTube. I've heard so many modern ballad versions recently that I'd completely lost sight of the way Clarence played the tune. I think I could possibly work out most of his licks and phrasing although the guitar is getting in the way a bit. He has such subtle hand movements - it's a joy to watch!

I have been getting some coaching from Nick. I'll work out a tune for myself and then take it to Nick and he'll show me how to make it better with different fingering, drop thums, hammer-ons, pull offs, etc - or he may move the rhythm around a bit for me. We've not actually worked on the cuckoo together yet.

I seem to be able to get a lot of different tones from my banjo by moving the rag around inside it and by playing in different positions. It is only a very cheap instrument - the bottom of the range. When I buy another I'd like to go for a slightly wider neck - but that's all I'd change.

Your banjo playing is really sounding good Robin. Most people take several years to get to where you are now. You must be getting help from Rick!

Most old-time players consider Clarence Ashley's banjo/singing version to be 'the gold standard', but of course it's good to have your own version in the end.

That banjo you are playing has a really nice tone.

Well I've had my banjo for 3 months - so I thought I would record something this afternoon. One of the tunes I've been working on is The Cuckoo. I've heard lots of different versions of the tune so I've just been stealing bits from here and there. The only problem I have is that it isa song, not a fiddle tune - and I don't sing

But it just didn't sound right playing it without the words - so I gave it a go

Playing clawhamer banjo and singing at the same time is a whole new ball game !!!!!!!!

The recording was on my Zoom H2 on a mic stand in my lounge while standing up playing and singing. Well this is certainly an "adventure" with a new instrument coz I'm well out of my comfort zone on this one

Robin

It's all about the journey, and it sounds like you're on your way. Years from now, you'll have years of experience.

Around here, Old Time music has gotten infected with Bluegrass disease, making a lot of people play the songs too fast. It's not really limited to banjo,though. I've seen mandolin and guitar players affected. Even some Mt. dulcimer players have gotten it. Let your friends keep the pace, is sounds like they still remember when it was dance music.

Paul

I had a tough hour last night.

A friend from down the road (fiddle and banjo player) knocked on the door yesterday and asked if I wanted to go down to his place to play banjo with him on fiddle. Another friend, Chris, turned up with his mandolin and it was a case of "Right - let's see how far you've got with that thing!".

I opened with "Old Joe Clark" and at the end of the playing the tune through a few a few times with them I looked up expecting high praise indeed All that came back was "TOO FAST" "Bloody banjo players - way too fast!!!!!!" Now, one of the first things that Nick said to me a couple of week's ago whentold himI wanted to learn banjo was "Watch your speed on banjo. It is really easy to play too quick at sessions". That lesson has now been learned, and I can expect an "I told you so!" when I next see him

Chris then asked me "What tunes don't you know on that thing?" Well, after a couple of week's playing I only have 3 or 4 tunes, so the list of stuff I don't know is pretty long! So the two of themthen proceeded to play tunes I have yet to learn giving me a couple of minutes or so to re-tune and work out some of the phrases before kicking off. It was a struggle to say the least but just what I needed really.

The double C tuning capo'd+ 2 to the key of D (aDADE) is giving me the most trouble at present. The first 3 strings are the same as "sawmill" capo'd +2 (aEADE) in A minor. In A minor you play the C scale but in D you play the D scale on the same strings. Those first two strings are so close (just a tone apart) that working out the best pattern for a tune is quite a challenge as there are so many options! Also, having chromatic frets means that 4 out of every eleven notes are definately wrong

I'm not actually thinking about scales when I play - in fact, I try not to "think" of anything at all, just hear the tune and let everything else just happen. I found that I got on best at picking up tune phrases on the banjo last night with my eyes shut, or at least when not looking at my hands. Whereas with dulcimer and dobro I definately use visual clues (I'm going to have to have a play around with that!!!!)

This is certainly turning into an "adventure" with another instrument!

Robin

I was VERY tempted to buy a nylon strung fretless as my first banjo - and I don't think that there is any doubt that I will have one at some stage. I had aquick playwith one before making my decision to opt for a standard banjo as a starter.

I'll look up those Doc Boggs tracks.

Thanks

Robin, that dropthumb teaching video is very well done- I'm glad you found it, he gives great advice and it's very clear!

He's an excellent teacher.

Paul what you said about Pete Seeger is fascinating. I found the very same thing to be true for me- that learning/teaching dropthumb later on in one's playing is not ideal.

Robin- try watching/listening to Doc Boggs on banjo- it's pretty inspiring and yummy. I have a friend who learned nylon-strung fretless playing by listening to his playing and she sounds fabulous . Wish I could play like her!

Thanks Paul,

I've been working from this YouTube clip - for me, as a beginner,it is the best explanation and skill breakdownI have seen (it is lesson 2 for beginners - lesson 1 was the basic stroke):

I've been working on these exercises for just over a week so I'm starting to get up to playing speed. I'm now looking at where and when I can use the technique by playing around with slotting it into the tunes I already play.

Only another 10,000 hours of practice and I'll be able to do it really well !

Robin

When Pete Seeger wrote his banjo book, in the late 1940's, he taught the basic stroke, and added drop thumb in a later chapter. But some years later, he said that was not the best way to teach it, and that he now thinks drop thumb is best taught early. The real key is to do it as slowly as is necessary to do it correctly. Speed comes at it's own-well, speed. Rushing it is counter productive in any learning.Smooth and in time, as slow as needed.

Paul

That's exactly what I was trying to convey! Break up the standard strumming structure and throw in syncopated pauses, dropthumbs, hammer/pulls, and slides...they are the tools to make your playing come alive and be really banjo . Every time you start feeling too comfortable with doing something the same way, break it up again with something new like drop thumbing on a different string or using a left hand pluck note in a syncopated rhythm place, etc. Keep shaking things up and you will start automatically incorporating the little tricks and tools in to your normal play without having to think about it much. It will make your playing much more interesting and alive. Keep up the good work!

If you choose crooked/funky tunes to do this practice with, it will force you to break out of the comfortable bump-a-ditty pattern, which will be even more helpful. I had to do this. Actually, what I did was lock away my fretted banjos after two years of playing and force myself to play fretless banjo only for about a year, and boy that was the biggest thing that broke me of my over-dependence on banjo chord strumming. I doubt you would ever need to take such drastic action as I had to.

I've had a bit of a drop thumb breakthough

I was playing around with the drop thumb motion and thought of "You Are My Sunshine" - so I used that tune as an exercise to practice the movement on the spaces between the phrases. Sort of "You are my...boom-chinga-linga-chinga-ling. My only.. boom-chinga-linga-linga-ling." So I had that going OK last night and was really cheesily over doing it !

This lunchtime I had a go at "Pigs Foot" trying to apply your "skating and skipping" by halving the number of right hand strikes and using more hammer-ons pull-offs and slides. After playing it through a few times I realised that I'd thrown in a drop thumb pattern at the start of Part B without really thinking about it So all that practicing of the movement without actually knowing how to fit it into the music has paid off! I'm now starting to understand where it fits - although it looks like my subconscious mind is already way ahead of my conscious reasoning (as usual !!!!!)

Robin

Robin you are very observant!

Dwight doesn't believe in teaching beginners to drop thumb much. In fact, he is the one who discouraged me from incorporating drop thumb as a beginner- which is exactly part of what caused me big problems a year later as my playing improved.

Because of that, I always teach my beginner students drop thumb right from the beginning, with good results.

Dwight is all about rhythm, and he's one of my favorite players to listen to. :)

In his classes and teaching, Dwight doesn't touch on drop thumbs much if at all. But if you watch Dwight playing banjo in a non-teaching setting, you'll find he drop thumbs regularly (you can hear them more than see them)- but it's always really hard to see anything about what his individual fingers are doing because his hands are like big HAMS! lol! His fingernails are like horse hooves !

Hey thanks!

I've just been watching some of Dwight's posts on YouTube. I think I may get a couple of his videos. Great rhythms!!!

The wear pattern on his banjo heads looks like a big giveaway on how he gets his sound? I didn't see him drop thumb at all ?

Robin

Cool, Robin!

For old-time Appalachian tunes, Dwight Diller's play does something for me. Although I don't own a banjo, I have 2 of his cd's and 2 dvd's; one of the dvd's is instructional and it's about rhythm.

Wow - you have had some good teachers Lisa!

My banjo has a simple wooden potwith ametal tone ring:

Oops - perhaps I should have taken my good lady's vest that I stole to use as a damper out of the back of the banjo before taking the photo - she may have something to say about that!

Robin

Looks like a humdinger of a banjo, Robin. I love those 'put together' basic banjos- they often have that wonderful down home sound. Reminds me of the 1060's Kay banjos that were very affordable and simple back then, but are now much sought after by smart banjo players because they were well built despite their plainness and they just play and sound GOOD! Is it a spun-over metal pot or a wooden pot?

Yes a good approach is to keep testing things and not let yourself get cemented into habits that might hold you back later. I made that mistake by avoiding drop thumbs the first year and when i tried to incorporate them later I found it terribly difficult. I learned a lot from that mistake. I was fortunate to take a workshop with Brad Leftwich at the time and I got a 30 minute private sit down with him. I asked him why i couldn't manage the drop thumb well, and he watched me and nailed it - he showed me the specific details of what my problem was, he knew exactly, and after that I was able to 'get it'. Otherwise my rhythm would have continued to be slightly awkward forever I think.

i found the best books & teaching materials for me were from Dwight Diller, Brad Leftwich, and Miles Krasson's book- all their ways of playing are a little different, but they all 3 teach fingering and phrases that encourage natural fluidity and yummy syncopated rhythms. They broke me of my self imposed chord-based bump-ditty dependence- that was my personal problem in my first couple of years. Not saying you are going to be like that at all- I think you are a more experienced musician than I am for one thing- just saying what helped me tremendously with my own banjo struggle. :)

Congratulations Robin, that sounds amazing for a couple of weeks study.

Had a guy at the club who went from concertina to banjo in 3 months flat, and good too.

john p

Ahh!!!

Skating and skipping over the fretboard - I can imagine that I've beenattempting to playCripple Creek and Angeline the Baker a bit like that.

Air pauses and less notes - very good!!!! I've just started to have a go at "The Cuckoo" - that's not got many notes at all so it is really making me think about how to carry rhythm. And I'm trying a slow Frosty Morning.

I'm playing around with all sorts of different right hand positions and movements - every player I watch on youtube is doing something slightly different so I'm just copying styles at present and listening to what happens.

I haven't got any idea at all where to use drop thumb (yet!). So I'm just practicing the movement for 10 mins or so each day. I'm sure that Nick will show me how to bring it in to the music when I'm ready. For now I'm basing everything around bum-di-dy and di-dy, thumb on thumb string - it is going to take quite a while to get that flowing.

It is great fun just learning something new

I try and have the approach that "I don't know what I don't know". And that what I'm physically doing now is not what I'm going to be physically doing next week.

I bought a really basic banjo from Andy Perkins banjos. It is his own brand "Grafton" made from Chinese parts and then assembled by him. It has no bells or whistles just very basic parts but it holds itstuning well and will do me just fine. It will certainly be well abused

Robin

Been there, got the tee shirt, and COULD'NT do it !!!

JohnH

You are done for now...the long slippery banjo slope.

You'll find that dulcimer fingering and rhythm doesn't really translate well onto banjo.

You are a good musician, so I'm hearing in your clip that you are able to dive right in and find all the notes pretty quickly- a great accomplishment and head start!

But it will take a much longer time to get the 'feel' of the special rhythms the banjo offers. Right now you are playing rapid fire melody single notes on one string at a time, with an occasional decorative strum. That won't get you a real southern appalachian banjo sound- it's more Dave Macon/Pete Seeger. Start learning especially drop thumb , start using slides and hammer-ons/pulloffs instead of keeping each note separate. I'm just trying to be helpful when i say think more ice skating and skipping and less typewriter. Think of the air pauses- they are just as important as the notes.

My suggestion is to slow down and forget trying to play fast tunes with lots of notes. That will not get you to where I suspect you want to go. Take a lot of steps backwards and work slowly on the RHYTHM, not the notes, not speed. To get the special banjo rhythm you'll need to work hard on drop thumb, slides, pulloffs, and hammerons...but drop thumb more than anything. Those are the tools. And remember your friend is the open drone strings- but not just for brushing and strumming- rather they are an integral part of almost every little 'dance phrase' of notes. I hope some of this makes some sense- it's hard to put into words!

The commonest problem I see with new banjo students?- waggling their thumb separately from the rest of their hand, and using it as an afterthought in a separate note. The thumb needs to BE THERE ALREADY on the thumb string and just lifted off to make the rhythm note sound- you can't bring it along and position it only when you are going to make that note, like you do with the other fingers and notes.

So tell us about your new banjo...and pictures!!

I don't know what came over me? Perhaps it's just a phase I'm going through? Hopefully it is not a sign of something more serious

Two week's ago, on a whim, I pulled out my credit card and bought - a BANJO

I've been listening to loads of old recordings of Appalachian bands lately and it was listening to the banjo/fiddle combinations made started me thinking. If I want to improve my trad dulcimer playing perhaps learning banjo may be a pretty good way of thinking about rhythm in a different way - and it would be a good instrument for accompanying my fiddle playing better-half who is really getting into old time playing. So based on those lame excuses I bought a banjo (please forgive me ).

I've watched a few very basic "learn to clawhammer" YouTube lessons, got a few pointers off my banjo playing buddyand have set about trying to get my head around this weird instrument that has loads of different tunings and a strange right hand action (Mmm..... that reminds me of another instrument I play ). I'm not sure how far I'm going to get with the instrument but my present goal is to simply transfer the tunes I play on mountain dulcimer to banjo and see what comes from that. Already I'm noticing that I'm naturally making slight changes to tunes so they "fall to the fingers" on the banjo when frailing. And I've found I have to use a lot of hammer-ons and pull-offs, plus the thumb string to fill in 8th notes. I've also found that if I look at my hands too much it all goes horribly, horriblywrong So I'm just trying to relax and not think about anything at all - just trusting that my fingers will fall to the notes once I've worked out a phrase or passage.

So, 2 weeks into my banjo journeyI've just made my first recording, which is posted below. The instrument still feels very strange in my hands but hopefully over time it will start to feel more and more natural and begin to sound better too

Robin

Very true Robin!

I've not competed in a dulcimer competition (it is a bit of a swim to get across to the US ) but they do seem to be a part of traditional mountain community culture - so perhaps that's is the light they should be viewed under.

I understand the sentiment Mark and Greg"music is an art form, not a competition"but, just perhaps, in cases like this, the competition festival is a historic and cultural community art in itself?

I spend many years living in the Highlands of Scotland and each community's "gathering" was an important date on the callender - and a mix of sport and musical art competitions.

Where I live now, in Wales, the eisteddfod is an important part of the culture. Every child in Wales will compete in singing, dance, poetry or instrument playing right from first school. It is hardly a surprise that Wales is renowned for producingmusicians - the opportunities to practice and be coached are there for all !

So perhaps we should look at mountain dulcimer festival competitions as the continuation of tradition. There were dulcimer competitions held at the first Galax fiddle convention in 1935 (Ruth Melton won!). So that does suggest that music competions were part of mountain community life well before that - and that the dulcimer was looked upon as a worthy instrument for competition! And the settlers would have bought the culture of such events from the home countries.

Kendra - it is good to see you continuing this tradition and heartening to hear that young folk are the ones whofeel particularly energised by these events - long may they continue !

Robin

Robin Thompson said:

Although I don't think of playing dulcimer as competitive sport, contests have been a part of community musical get-togethers for a long time. So, I think of contests as being part of a tradition.

I've never competed and don't know whether I would or not. If the atmosphere of a given competition was light-hearted, friendly, maybe. . .

Personally, I've never competed in a contest and never will. Not that interested in making music into a competitive sport. However, I do not mind watching others compete in a contest. It would make a nice addition to a weekend festival. I prefer the festivals with workshops, vendors, jamming, and concerts by the professional musicians. A contest could easily be added to these festivals, perhaps free admission in exchange for entering a contest. Concerts and contests probably have a greater appeal to the non-dulcimer players attending a dulcimer festival. It would certainly give dulcimer spouses something to do while their spouse attends workshops, looks at the instruments being offered for sale, or jams over in the corner.

Greg

The Reds are my "go to" team for when the Indians aren't in the running!

Paul

Too funny, Geekling! We wouldn't want you to start gnawing.....but to tell the truth, I think I would start gnawing my arms off too if I had to compete....some people love it, some do not....it's very interesting to me....

YAY! Ken! Let's get 'cha up here next year so you can show 'em how it's done!

Paul, we welcome you back to Coshocton dulcimer days anytime with open arms....too bad you have to "wait 'til next year"! (I guess I will have to say it....."How about them Red's"!!! ) Am I in trouble now? I guess once a trouble maker, always a trouble maker!

Dulcerina-

I went a couple times, but it was always in May, and Mrs.Wanda's birthday, Mothers Day & The Memorial Day family cookout made for a busy month. Mrs. Wanda never developed an I didn't go much. Hoping for next year, now that it's in June.This June we have 2 graduations, a wedding, and a family reunion. I don't even get to open mics much lately.As a Cleveland Indians fan, I grew up saying "Wait till next year!"

Paul

Thanks for the comments!

I do think that festivals have all gone toward the workshop/concert type weekend and I think that is a good idea. We are trying to cater to as many people as we can, and the contests do bring in a lot of people, both contestants and watchers. I think the contest mentality is becoming more and more popular again, and I am so happy to see so many of the contestants are coming from the younger generation! YAY!

Paul, you need to come back to Coshocton and see how much it has changed....hopefully for the better....and it is all free, except the workshops which are $15 per person per workshop, paid directly to the teacher who keeps 100%. We offer between 50-60 workshops depending on the year, plus jams, vendors, concerts, lot's of food, and more....

Ken, float on up our way sometime soon.....we could use a good noter/drone teacher....maybe next year?

Thanks again for your comments....

Dulcerina-

Competition is a big part of festivals, but for me being a self taught player, I would rather attent a workshop / instruction class instead. Right now competing is not for me.

Although I don't think of playing dulcimer as competitive sport, contests have been a part of community musical get-togethers for a long time. So, I think of contests as being part of a tradition.

I've never competed and don't know whether I would or not. If the atmosphere of a given competition was light-hearted, friendly, maybe. . .

I watched some of the contests at Roscoe years ago, but I was a brand new player, and the idea of competing was way off in the distance. It was fun to watch, but at that time I was more interested in attending workshops,and learning to play, so I only watched when no classes were being held. I suspect many new players might feel that way, too. I never developed much interest in competing, and I now find I would rather jam at festivals than anything else. I also take less workshops than I did in the early days. Concerts are more appealing to me than contests, as I feel the performers have more time to display the depth of their abilities. Those on a level, and of a mind set, to compete may prefer to watch the contests, and probably enjoy them. I kinda lost interest. I haven't been able to attend Roscoe for a good many years, but hope to again in the future. The jams were always fun, even when I didn't know many songs.

Paul

I organize the Coshocton Dulcimer Days festival and we have the Mid-Eastern Regional Hammered and Mountain dulcimer contests. Winners receive a trophy, money, and entry into the Walnut Valley Festival in KS. This festival has had contests since the first festival in the early '70's.

I am just curious about what ya'll think about contests, if you would ever compete, if you have competed, what you think judging criteria should be, and any other comments. Since we are sanctioned by Walnut Valley, we do have go by their rules, but we can change minor things with their approval.

Me, personally, I cannot compete....it makes me physically ill!!! LOL I have not competed since about 1985. I could do it when I was a kid, but it is just not my thing now. Isn't that weird???? I remember one time, Bob (my hubby) and I borrowed Dad's courting dulcimer to compete against mom and dad....We tied!!! .....and had to have a play off!!! Isn't that too funny.....Bob and I did manage to beat mom and dad, but I don't know how!!!! Bob and I still play that courting dulcimer today....I guess it is our good luck dulcimer!

I hear people say all the time that competing makes them better players and I can see that. It makes them practice and to be able to be in front of people. It gives them a goal to work on.

What are your thoughts and opinions? I thought this would be a fun topic to discuss.

Back in the '70's, the entire structure of the Coshocton Dulcimer Days....then Roscoe Village Dulcimer Days....was all based on contests. They had a courting dulcimer contest, a kid's contest, a club contest, traditional contest, men VS women, duet contest, band contest, hammered, mountain, best male singing, best female singing, and so on. Today, I don't think there are enough people who would be interested in these contests, but some people have mentioned that they would like to have a duet contest and a vocal contest come back. What do ya'll think of this?

I am looking forward to reading your comments. Thanks........