Forum Activity for @dulcimerdonna

Jolene just turned 1 year old; I adopted her about 8 months ago from Berkeley Humane.

 jolene_bday.jpg - 110KB

No caption needed.

Glad you liked it.  It sort of comforting in a day when otherwise we are dependent on electronics to harken back to simpler times. Speaking of which, I just found out that you can dial an app. on your Smartphone called, Cleartune. You then place the phone on your dulcimer to tune it.  Needless to say, I am not a techie and will stick with my Korg Tuner or the old reliable, "Do you hear what I hear?"

John, that is so coooool!!! I'll remember that one and use it.

Thanks John.  An interesting alternative to bim-bim-BOM!

Responding to Royb and others looking for a simple way to tune to DAa or DAd, I found the suggestion of Joe Collins, a noted dulcimer teacher, very helpful. In his book: "Dulcimer Basics, A Mt. Dulcimer Primer",he suggests that in the sung phrase, "Do you hear what I hear.." in the Christmas carol, are the notes or intervals needed for DAd or DAa.

"Do you"=D (bass string);  "hear what"=A (middle string); "I"=d (melody string for DAd) and "hear"=(a)meldody string) DAa.  Used with permission from Joe.  Hope this is helpful. John

Thanks Robin. Interesting. I have Kevin Roth's two record instructional but not the booklet that would have come with it.

Roy B, I have this book, put out by Homespun, and it came with a recording:

https://folkways.si.edu/jean-ritchie/traditional-mountain-dulcimer-taught/book/smithsonian

I am a straight by-ear player and have listened to Jean's instruction (which accompanies the Homespun book) many many times.  There is also an older instructional recording Jean did and it is offered by Smithsonian/Folkways.  If I were only going to have one of them, I'd go with the Homespun.  I only include the link so you can see what it looks like-- I'm thinking I purchased my copy straight from Homespun.      

Robin, Homespun Instruction? Are you talking about a book or recording?

@lisa-golladay Beethoven and Jean Ritchie (from her Homespun instruction tuning description-- not the early Folkways version)!  

@royb I'm not a great player yet have been at it since '05.  Though modes haven't sunk in all the way for me, it hasn't stopped me from making music one bit.  Still enjoying the journey!  Happy strumming to you!  

Thanks Lisa. I agree with everything you wrote!

Ironically, the reason I recommend "In Search of..." to beginners is because it gets them tuned up and making music right away. No tab, hardly any theory -- just strum and listen while you play. Not until Chapter 6 do alternate modal tunings show up. So this is a point on which Force and d'Ossche agree with our own Ken H (and also me). Put down the book and play

I speak from experience, since I am another person who likes to gobble up information. It's fun to plunge into the deep end, but the only way to really grasp how a dulcimer works is to play it. The modes will make sense eventually, but not until you've been playing for a while. This is especially true for guitarists, most of whom need to let go of their prior training and allow the dulcimer to lead them down some winding roads that don't seem to be going anywhere... yet.

A lot of the old books have "creative" ways to describe tunings. We didn't have electronic tuners and you couldn't always count on having a piano, tuning fork or pitchpipe when you needed it. The "X+3" stuff is confusing and I'm glad we don't need it nowadays. CFCC is a reverse Ionian tuning that puts you in the key of F.

The Beethoven version of the t-shirt would be Bim Bim Bim BOM, wouldn't it?

I agree with with Ken H.

I do have one last thing to point out, He bases all his tunings as starting on the melody string [being D for example]. The current concept is to base tunings on the bass string. This difference seems to affect the results in various ways.

The Cripple Creek dulcimer book instructs one to tune to the key of G for ionian mode, but without using a reverse tuning.

They instruct to tune the bass string to the G below middle C for bass string (G3 in octave labeling), then to the D (D4) right above middle C for the middle and melody strings. (Gddd for ionian key-of-G, as opposed to our typical key-of-D ionian tuning DAAA which has all strings below middle C). 

(Note that this Gddd 'might' strain your bass and middle strings if they are heavy gauge or if you have a long vsl.)

Thanks.  I've probably read Jean Ritchie's book about 4 times now, emphasizing different aspects each time.  I've also enjoyed her "Dulcimer People".  I'll check out Cripple Creek Dulcimer (but don't tell Ken Hulme - he wants me to put down the books and play more ; )

Yes it's a mess.  If the video would play through for you you would see tons of instruments just plain ruined......warped, glue not holding etc.  Let alone some amazing machinery soaked.......and the dulcimers just soaked........I read they need about $25,000 bucks just to clean up the place................then we have the other side of the coin with people displaced, homes destroyed and folks dead and/or still missing...............prayers, money and lots of work needed.

Thank you for sharing the video, @salt-springs.  For some reason, I have been unable to watch past the 4:20 (or so) mark in the film yet am sure the damage is as awful as I can imagine from other images I have seen.  

I've made donation and am guessing donations will be needed for a very long time.  Just a bit ago, I saw where more heavy rain is forecast for the area already hit by floods.  :(

Roy -- it's your journey -- enjoy.

New video inside Troublesome Creek Guitar Factory........worse than you can imagine. Video was posted by the Development director of the Artisan center.

www.facebook.com/AACHindman/videos/3247264138892023

https://www.artisancenter.net/post/picking-up-the-pieces?fbclid=IwAR0sPkeTsARcnI1ACASSdfLHHDRexfOvwd-VY-0wvfFnQJmnyCg6CH2Rnck

I do second Dusty's recommendation for reading Jean Ritchie's Dulcimer Book.  She starts from the standpoint of playing traditional melody-drone style.  Not that it's wrong to gobble up all the information you can, I tend to do that as well! 

Another good starting-out book is Cripple Creek Dulcimer, by Bud and Donna Ford.  That's another "somewhat older" book, and it teaches about the various modes and how to tune to them.  As I remember it's less focused on chords. 

Those are some of the books I cut my dulcimer teeth on when I was learning in the mid-90's.  I love the modal tunings.  One thing I like about the 6+ fret is that it gives me two modes in one tuning. 

(By the way, I want a bim-bim-BOM button too!  Or maybe a T-shirt...)

Dusty, thanks for your very clear explanation.  I may get around to switching string gauge order at some point.

Thanks for your advice, Ken.  I am playing a lot, experimenting with tunings, getting frustrated with my old, wood peg tuners and my (continuously) sharp melody string, both of which I've mentioned elsewhere.  I do have a few songs down in Ionian, and a couple in Mixolydian (although without the 6+ fret that's a bit harder).  I switch back and forth between the 1969 model and my smaller Apple Creek, and am trying different string gauges on both.

However, I am who I am, so when I get into a new hobby or subject, I try to gobble up as much as I can on its history, background, methods, etc.  I am grateful that the dulcimer lends itself to initially sounding decent and playing tunes without much if any instruction or theory, except for YouTube videos (kudos again to Strumelia, and to Bing Futch, among others).

Thanks again. 

@RoyB, when I first picked up the dulcimer, I found discussions about modal tunings to be confusing and maddening.  I had a reasonable (though certainly not expert) understanding of music theory but it made no sense to me.  And today, I usually leave discussions about modes to others. I only joined here because your initial question was about an open chord tuning and not really about modes per se.

Why do I find the concept of modal tuning so confusing?  A given tuning is only limited to a single mode if you 1) have no extra frets; and 2) only play the melody on the melody string.  And even then, many folks songs are based on pentatonic (5-note scales) rather than modes, so they still don't correspond to the mode that gives a tuning its name.

Similarly, I found the concept of "reverse" tunings to be wholly unnecessary and confusing.  But the logic is not complicated.  

In the traditional style of drone play, the drones must be the first and fifth notes of the scale. That is why when we tune to the key of D, our bass and middle strings are always D and A respectively, and when we retune, we only change the melody string.  Similarly, in the key of C, the drones must be C and G.

But what if you wanted to play in the key of G?  Your drones would be G and D.  On a standard dulcimer, it would be really hard to tune your bass string to G.  It would either be too floppy to make any noise or you'd break it tuning up.  But what if you switched the order of the drones?  You could easily keep your bass string tuned to D and tune your middle string down from A to G.  Then you tune your melody string to d (an octave above the bass) and instead of a normal GDD tuning, you have a "reversed" DGd tuning.

That's all it is.  A "reverse" tuning just means the drones are reversed.  It's that simple.

Roy --- I think you're suffering from information overload!   You're reading In Search of The Wild Dulcimer, which is about as far from Noter & Drone as you can possibly get!  I know.  When I started there was only Jean Ritchie's first book.  Then along came In Search Of... and it just confused the heck out of me.  What Robert does, and what traditional Noter & Drone players do are not quite opposite poles of a magnet.  I've known Robert for years, and am amazed by his skills as a singer-player-songwriter.  But I'm never gonna get within a lightyear of what he does, and decided long ago it wasn't worth bashing my head against the wall in frustration.

I respectfully suggest that you put down the books, forget the theory, and just play.  Spend time getting to know the diatonic fretboard and where the notes are on it and how to move that noter fluidly from place to place. Get half a dozen songs in your repertoire in Ionian and half a dozen more in Mixolydian.  

Just to beat a dead horse, I've confirmed that Jean Ritchie's book did originally come out in 1963, and John Pearse published a like titled instruction book in 1970.  I am enjoying the 'folksy', personalized writing of Robert Force's book, however.

And Skip, I do understand that the note order doesn't change with the VSL being longer, but his string gauge recommendations and low and high chart for each don't work for me, I don't think.  Thanks

I think there's a proofing error there. In his description on page 66-67 he writes"~~where the mode's most major-sounding tonality is found. The Ionian mode originally began at the note C on the third fret." Then in the chart on page 109, in the Ionian row, he has C  under 'original tonality' but in the last column does not have a tuning showing the GCgg  [X  X+3 XX] tuning. Instead he has the CFCC tuning. Further down on page 67, he shows X+3 X XX as a newer tuning [what we expect for this mode].

So if he actually strums CFCC expecting a C Chord???

The VSL doesn't affect the note order, the notes remain the same, they just cover more length.  

 C D E F G A B C

  1  2  3 4 5 6  7 8

  C  G  G

   1  5   5

My poor beginner brain is exploding!  I've hardly learned to tune and play in Ionian and Mixolydian, and still can't wrap my head around the 1-5-5 etc. system, and now you're talking about reverse tunings? :)  I did notice that the book bases everything on a 24" VSL (which concept I was able to transfer from guitar scale length).  My large, older dulcimer is 28.5", as I've mentioned, so it's almost a baritone in VSL, if not build.  I've had to translate some concepts in the book to this longer, larger instrument.

I've been reading the book online, but sometimes you just need to hold a book in your hands, so I ordered a used copy.

Lastly, I was curious about the authors' comment about a lack of instruction books partially motivating them to write theirs.  I haven't read the whole book yet, but didn't they read Jean Ritchie's Dulcimer Book when they started on their journey?  I believe it first came out in 1963 (?), so it should have been readily available when they were writing theirs.  Maybe I should read the site that Strumelia suggested, about the writing of the book.

Dusty you correctly surmised the reverse tunings in the chart while I was typing my endless novel.

It's worth reading Robert Force's story about the book:
https://robertforce.com/SongsAndInstruction/InSearchOfTheWildDulcimer.html

And you can read the book itself online here:
https://robertforce.com/SongsAndInstruction/InSearchOfTheWildDulcimer-PDFs.html

NOTES:  in the "Tuning chart" page, at bottom he states the string length as being 24"... quite a short vsl.

He also states the strings as being listed 'from low to high', therefore he writes his mixolydian tuning in the chart from top to bottom: DADD meaning the top D is the low bass string and the two bottom d's are the pair of melody strings. He refers to the melody string s , plural. He lists the gauges as 22(low bass), 12, and 10 (0.22, 0.12, and 0.10)

He's giving DGdd as the tuning for Ionian mode. That's a 'reverse Ionian' tuning for the key of G.

Why that somewhat unusual tuning for playing in ionian mode? I figure this came about because when he tuned to DAAA on a 24" scale with the melody strings being 0.10, they were just too floppy for him to think playable. The third fret on the melody strings in DGdd is a G note, so that's the tonic/key he indicated. But if you tried to tune typically (1-5-5) for ionian in the key of G, you'd tune Gddd. The Bass string would break long before hitting that higher G, and it'd likely be too loose and jangly if tuned to the G below the usual D.  To avoid breaking the bass or middle string is the reason some folks use a 'reverse tuning'- where the tonic low note is instead on the middle string and the heavy string is tuned instead to a fifth below the tonic. The bass and middle string notes get swapped. It saves strings from breaking or from being too low to play.
For the key of G that reverse tuning would then be DGdd as in the chart, with the middle string taking over the job of the tonic low note, the melody strings playing high g tonic on the 3rd fret, and the bass string tuned to a fifth from the tonic (the 5th note in the key of G being a D) but in the lower octave. The bass and middle strings have exchanged duties, and you don't break any strings.

If the scale length of the person mapping out the tuning chart had been a more typical 26-28" length, then the normal key of D ionian tuning of DAAA would have worked fine. OR, it also would have also worked fine in DAAA on a 24" scale if he had put heavier strings on.
It's little wonder folks tuned up from the key of C to the key of D if they were making or playing 24" scale dulcimers. I also notice he has the chart use the key of E for aeolian mode. I think a lot of this was to accommodate that short 24" scale whoever wrote the chart was working with, assuming they didn't want to try changing to heavier strings for whatever reasons.

Robert's intro clearly states that he (and others he was working with) didn't really know much of anything about dulcimers or how they were traditionally played when they started having fun with them. They experimented, improvised, adapted, and learned as they went along.

I think those tunings listed in the back of the book would be considered "reverse" ionian tunings, correct? CFCC, for example, is an Ionian tuning in the key of F.  What is reversed are the drones, with the 5th on the bass sting and the root on the middle string.

That's wild!

Bravo @royb!!!

To return to my original question, concerning Ionian tuning and In Search of the Wild Dulcimer, I just found my answer, as to why Robert Force said Ionian doesn't sound good in open tuning.  At the back of the book he's got a "Range and Tuning Guide".  Under Ionian, he lists the notes as CFCC, DGDD or EAEE (with doubled melody strings).  My understanding from every other source is that Ionian would be CGGG, DAAA, etc..  None of his other named modes matches my understanding of the Ionian intervals.  Don't know where he got this one, but it would explain his opinion about open tuning in his version of this mode.  Now we can all sleep tonight :)

To complicate matters, as I recall, one of Jean Ritchie's instructional recordings has Jean telling how her dad, Balis, told to tune the dulcimer "Bim, bim, bom," and on another recording, she has him saying to tune "Bim, bim, bim , bom."  Both mean the bass is tuned then the other strings (whether 2 strings or 3) are tuned to the 5th above the bass.  Love me some Jean Ritchie!

You know, I have to tell all of you - I also belong to the Acoustic Guitar Forum, and this group is a lot better, with way more enjoyable interaction.  Maybe dulcimer players do actually have more fun! And I am enjoying how my original Ionian tuning question has morphed into selling buttons at zero profit and building dulcimers for the experience, with "meager" return.

Lisa, that's the very secret of success in dulcimer-building!   Spend lots on tools, equipment and lumber, and you'll get a guaranteed meager return!  It's the (modern) American way!

Well, maybe I could invest the tens of dollars I make with Dulcimore making and start me a button making empire? lol

How to make $20 by selling dulcimer buttons:
Start by spending $70 to make and mail a dozen of them.

You aint' got none posted for sale yet? I'll take one....