Forum Activity for @skip

Two buttons, bim Bim Bom and bim bim Bom.

[quote="Strumelia"]

I really think there should be a button one could wear that just says: bim bim BOM.

I'd wear one!

I really think there should be a button one could wear that just says: bim bim BOM.

[quote="RoyB"]

[quote="ocean-daughter"]

I think some of the dulcimer renaissance pioneers developed their own ways of thinking and talking about theory and dulcimer playing.  For instance Force and d'Ossche playing the dulcimer with it "sideways" on a strap, though they still fretted and strummed "overhand" like lap players would.  And I've heard people refer to tunings as "AAD" or "CAD", treble to bass.

Thanks, I'm starting to figure that out, as I read more about the dulcimer, especially from older sources.  I did note that Jean Ritchie, for one, would indicate GGC, where today we'd say CGG.

[/quote]

And Jeans daddy Balis, "you tune her like this: Bim - bim - BOM."

I just realized we'll be visiting our daughter and her family in Colorado Springs that day...they do have a nice porch, so I'll make sure to go out there!  I might also try to record something in advance, to post on that day. 

@ken-hulme On Orkney!?!  That sounds amazing! 

I've always kind of wanted to go to Anglesey and Holy Island... maybe someday. 

[quote="ocean-daughter"]

I think some of the dulcimer renaissance pioneers developed their own ways of thinking and talking about theory and dulcimer playing.  For instance Force and d'Ossche playing the dulcimer with it "sideways" on a strap, though they still fretted and strummed "overhand" like lap players would.  And I've heard people refer to tunings as "AAD" or "CAD", treble to bass.

Thanks, I'm starting to figure that out, as I read more about the dulcimer, especially from older sources.  I did note that Jean Ritchie, for one, would indicate GGC, where today we'd say CGG.

I think some of the dulcimer renaissance pioneers developed their own ways of thinking and talking about theory and dulcimer playing.  For instance Force and d'Ossche playing the dulcimer with it "sideways" on a strap, though they still fretted and strummed "overhand" like lap players would.  And I've heard people refer to tunings as "AAD" or "CAD", treble to bass.

Bobby & Dan, so good of you guys to do this.  

If it's OK to mention it here, Dulcimore Dan and I are making dulcimores with the proceeds minus shipping costs going to the Artisan Center and Troublesome Creek Guitars. Every little bit will help get them back on their feet.

@john-c-knopf I'll always remember coming upon you sitting on the sidewalk in Hindman playing your Uncle Will Singleton dulcimer.  I loved the sound of that thing and you played it wonderfully!  

The devastation in Hindman and surrounding areas is heartbreaking, I imagine, for all of us. 

This is horrifying news!  Several states are dealing with floods right now.  Hindman, home of the James E. Thomas dulcimer,  has been especially hard-hit.  Troublesome Creek often floods, but not like this.  Doug Naselroad, who runs Troublesome Creek Musical Instruments, the dulcimer museum and the downtown luthier shop has massive flooding problems right now.

Thanks for that update on Sarah!!! 

I've seen photos and videos of the horrible flooding in Kentucky, including devastation in Hindman.   My heart is with all whose lives have been uprooted by the torrent.  It was good to see on Facebook that mountain dulcimer friend Sarah Kate Morgan had marked herself as safe-- she is on staff at Hindman.  

Oh no, that is horrible!

Tragic news from Kentucky where a flood in Hindman has virtually destroyed the Dulcimer museum and Artisan School.  Loss of life and great sorrow.  Things can be replaced but lives tragically ended............great sorrow there.  News reports say this may be the most devastating flood in Kentucky history. David Bennett has posted photo's on the TTAD site of some of the destruction..........

Strumelia, I think the Seagull Merlin was developed for guitar players who wanted to try playing dulcimer.  I've tried them in the past, but never got comfortable with one, despite my years on guitar.  Somehow, I've taken pretty easily to noter dulcimer playing, with the instrument on my lap, Jean Ritchie style (and many thanks for your YouTube videos for tutorials).

I actually have two instruments - the 1969 28" VSL and an Apple Creek ACD100 24".  The latter has the 6+ fret, which, mainly tuning in Ionian and playing songs from Pete Seeger's American Favorite Ballads, I haven't had much use for as yet.  That book guided me through my first years on guitar, so I'm back to it now for dulcimer.

Thanks, Skip.  No need to hide.  "The confusion I'm feeling, ain't no time can tell".  That's exactly why I started the thread in the first place.  I did write to Bob Force, and await his response.

I've read his chapters on tuning, Mixolydian mode, and other modes and I'm uncomfortable with his approach to "music theory", which is what this thread is about, what's in his book. It seems to be a mixed bag of concepts and, maybe, opinions. 

This feeling is based on everything y'all have taught me along with a lot of time researching and thinking.

Now I'm gonna go hide.  

I agree with Dusty's thoughts in his last post below. As a banjo player, and as I'm sure many guitar players also know, there are 'open tunings' that create a satisfying tonic-note-heavy resolved sound when strummed across all open strings. Fiddlers sometimes use open tunings as well, in order to play tunes heavy on paired drone bowing- they call them cross tunings. In the dulcimer, DAd is such an open tuning, while DAA (for playing in ionian mode) is less so... until you fret the melody string on 3rd fret to create that high D note... and then it's not an 'open strum'.
Many of the young people during the 1960s folk revival who were discovering playing the mountain dulcimer started playing folk music on guitar. The use of a tuning like DAd that both facilitated making chords, playing barr chords, and which had an open/unfretted tonic chord... I imagine was naturally appealing to them.
They added the 6+ fret so they could play popular American folk songs from the newly favored 1-5-8 open string tuning. They also enjoyed turning their dulcimers up on the side to play them in guitar fashion, sometimes hanging them on straps and playing while standing up performing or jamming, and some even played them 'underhand' with their left hand wrapped around to the fretboard from underneath like guitar players do as well. They adjusted the dulcimer and its playing traditions to serve more modern needs.

I can't explain why, but I think the first 4 pages of chapter 4 have a big impact on this subject. It's a whole new way of looking at modes [for me, at least]. It's going to take awhile to digest.

I haven't figured out how the Ionian comment fits yet, probably never will. I don't think the current mode applications [theory?] apply though. He's coming at it from a different angle.

X X+3 XX is his take on DAd tuning. He starts on the melody string[s] [XX] then middle [X+3], then X an octave lower.

I downloaded the book from his site.

Thanks, Ken.  Although I've been singing and playing guitar for many years, music theory in any form has always alluded me, for some reason.  I did see the book is on Robert Force's website, but I've been reading it on Open Library, which I found a bit more reader friendly.  I may contact him about my question, though.

CGG and DAA are both Ionian Modal Tunings.  Instead of letters some folks use numbers to indicate the Modes generically -- rather than saying "CGG and DAA" the say  1-5-5 to indicate that 1 is 'whatever' bass note, and the Middle drone and Melody strings are both tuning "a fifth above" -- that is 5 note higher than the Bass note.  

Likewise DAd and CGc are both Mixolydian Modal tunes designated numerically 1-5-8.  The Middle drone is "a fifth above" and the Melody string is "an octave above" the Bass string. 

The other two commonly used Modal Tunings are Dorian -- numbered 1-5-4, and Aeolian -- numbered 1-5-7.  In Dorian tunings the Melody string is tuned "four notes higher" than the Bass.  In Aeolian the Melody string is tuned "7 notes higher" than the Bass string.

As an aside, you can always ask Robert Force what he meant directly.  He's still around and doing at least some Festivals.  In Search of... is available free online at www.robertforce.com.  Use the Contact to reach him directly.

In reading and rereading their x x+4 x x notation method, I'm not positive that their Ionian is my Ionian. CGG would not be notated the way they've written it, I don't think. In any event, you've confirmed what my ears heard - Ionian and Mixolydian sound fine when played open.

By the way, I just found that comment in the book and am still not sure what they mean by it.  Perhaps the idea is that the open strum in an ionian tuning does not include a "do" on the melody string. As someone who usually tunes to a 1-5-8 or mixolydian tuning, I can attest to how how nice it is to be able finish most songs by lifting up your fretting hand entirely and just resolving to an open strum.  The open strum in an ionian tuning sounds just fine as a chord but doesn't resolve the melody to the root or do the way our modern ears prefer.

Thanks Dusty. After years of guitar playing I can hear a dissonant chord.

I'm not sure what Force and d'Ossché intend with that comment, but both CGG (ionian) or CGc (mixolydian) tunings give us "partial" chords with the open strings.  Both have the root (do) and the fifth (sol) but not the third (mi).

In short, strumming your open CGG strings should sound just fine.

There was a really nice piece by Lindsay Zoladz in the NY Times on Joni's appearance at Newport, celebrating the bravery of an aging woman who recently suffered an aneurism and had to re-learn how to walk re-interpreting her music with a voice a couple of octaves below the voice that made her famous.

I've been reading In Search of the Wild Dulcimer, and under the tuning mode section it says a disadvantage of Ionian is the lack of an open strum. Is that right? I know that do is on the third fret, but I thought CGG as open tuning sounded ok? Thanks

Oh, that last line that Joni sang out in the video- "Oh you're a mean old daddy but you're outa sight"....  so wonderful to see that, it made me cry. 

Better to take material off the bottom of a nut or bridge to reduce height.  Deep notches can "run into each other on the top"...  Search on here on the phrase "nickel and dime" and you'll find descriptions on reducing string height to a good level.

Thanks (again) Skip.  I was able to deepen the nut notches, and the action is a bit lower on that end.  Tried to do the same on the bridge end, but there isn't much area to work with.  Splitting the difference, as you describe, seems to be the way to go, here.

I agree, Dusty, Brandi did an amazing job of singing Carey. She sounded just like Joni!

Thanks, @dusty-turtle.  I saw the clips you saw, it seems.  Pretty cool.

Changing strings or tuning isn't going to do much. The problem is the extra height causes the tension for the length to be too much. What may help is to lower the nut [or deepen the notch a bit], make sure the string is touching the bridge as far back as possible and kind of split the difference between sharp/flat [open/affected fret]. It should be ok to be on the slightly sharp side rather than the flat side as flat is annoying and more obvious. If it's less than about 10 cents [usually in the green on the tuner] it is probably acceptable to most folks.

Here's a photo showing the string height.

dulcimer1.pdf - 106KB

Now that I'm sort of getting used to the wooden tuning pegs, I've started to notice that the melody string on my 1969 hand built dulcimer is always sharp when I use the noter (28.5" VSL, staple frets only under the melody string).  I've tried easing up on the noter pressure, which helps a bit.  If I tune the string down just a touch (slightly flat) it sounds better anywhere up the fretboard but when played open.  Problem is the instrument seems to have been built with a high sitting bridge (which I assume is causing the string to go sharp when pressed at the fret). The bridge of course cannot be lowered except to cut down the end cap holding the bridge (which I wouldn't do).  The bridge itself is about as low on the end cap as it can go, sticking up just slightly.  The nut placement is ok - if the bridge were at that level, there wouldn't be a problem.  The action, from the top of fret to string, is - first fret 1/16, middle 1/8, last fret 3/16 (all approximate).

Any ideas?  Go heavier or lighter on string gauge?  Different tuning (CGG at the moment)?  Thanks

I don't think so, Robin.  I remember "A Case of You" and "Both Sides Now" and some instrumental Joni played on an electric guitar.  I don't think there was a dulcimer in any of that.

@ken-hulme You can always sing or play spoons if no luthier is to be found.  

@dusty-turtle Was there more mountain dulcimer visible in the video you saw (versus the one I posted below)?