Forum Activity for @elvensong

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

 

I whole-heartedly agree, Ken. The same goes for people who can only play with sheet music. Tab & sheet music are useful in SMALL doses. After that it becomes your ball and chain.

It's like training wheels on a bike. Sure you can keep your training wheels on but you'll never be a good rider.

Frank Ledgerwood told me stories of people who came to him to improve their playing and he would ask them to play their favorite song so he could evaluate what they needed. They would tell him they couldn't because they didn't have the tab...for their favorite song?

I often get asked how I developed my style and it was by just experimenting. I learned my instrument by making up tunes. Put away the tab and just spend some time with your dulcimer. Sight reading tab and music are two great skills to have but I'll take knowing my instrument any day.

I might not know a song but in a few beats I can jump in and jam with anyone because I know how to make the sound that I'm hearing in my head. I may not know know I'm playing a C9 chord but I know the sound I am after and how to get there. 

I have considered teaching a workshop on how to write tunes with no music theory or tab, and it will be a beginner class because if you can fret and strum your instrument, if you know what sounds good to you, then you have the ability to write your own songs. The biggest impediment is people thinking they can't do it so they don't even try.

Healthy Living- healthy eating, exercise, weight loss, veggie gardening, etc.

OFF TOPIC discussions

Good for you Sandi!!  Maybe keep it small/do-able, so you don't wind up putting it off.

Terry, I neglected to mention the large portion of potatoe chips though.  heheh Yes I grew the cukes- their seeds are a bit large tho...will try a different variety next year.

Dusty, I like mozz (and balsamic) vinegar on tomatoes sometimes too!   mmmm!

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Marsha, I saw this happen recently with my husband at our folklore group.  I do understand as I've felt intimidated by them because there's some darned good musicians in the group.  He can play banjo in the background at my Civil War programs and earn raves.  I also stop him being in the background to have him play the melody of "Old Rosin the Beau" for my singing the Civil War abolition song "Roll on the Liberty Ball" and later a bit of it for "Lincoln and Liberty, Too."  He knows the song and does it well. 

We had a theme of Cities for our folklore group's song swap and he wanted to sing and play it for the song "Denver."   It's to that same tune and he can do it in his sleep.  He blew it, not just a little bit, he got thoroughly spooked.  Don't think I'll ever get him to try playing there again. 

O.k. I make myself play there.  When I said "I've felt intimidated", that past tense isn't true as I still do.  I've blown it there at times.  It's good for me to set those goals.  Just hope someday he'll try it again and I keep trying to help him understand.

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

You are absolutely right Dusty. I need to work on keeping a happy face when I make a mistake. It seems that the difficulty of doing so is in direct coralation with who the audience is.... old folks, kids and family, no problem because they don't even know when I make a mistake, but on a stage, different story. I loose concentration and bingo, ooops!

 

Healthy Living- healthy eating, exercise, weight loss, veggie gardening, etc.

OFF TOPIC discussions

Day two of workin' out!  WHOOP!  WHOOP!

 

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Musicians (including dulcimer players) make mistakes all the time. I'm sure Yo Yo Ma makes mistakes daily.  How often you make mistakes does not differentiate a beginner from an advanced player.

But an important skill to learn is how to make a mistake and keep going, keeping the flow of the music.  If you make a mistake but skip right over and keep going, the mistake is gone, off into the ether, and even if anyone noticed, they forget about it right away. But if you make a mistake and then stop and start over, or utter some choice exclamations (as I am wont to do) or pause for a moment with an unhappy face, then you really look like a beginner who can't carry a tune.  And what's more, once you learn how to continue playing after making a mistake, then the fear of making mistakes goes away.  Magic!

Healthy Living- healthy eating, exercise, weight loss, veggie gardening, etc.

OFF TOPIC discussions

Beautiful tomatoes. Our tomatoes didn't do so well this year. On the small side. Lisa, did you grow the cucumbers too? Some friends gave us 2 quart bags of the largest blueberries I think I have ever seen. Sweet. Oh my yes. Good for you, Lisa. Your goodies are much better for you than my meal of deep fried Bluegills last night. Then leftovers today. You gained 6 months of life, while I lost a year. Oh well.

updated by @terry-wilson: 07/31/18 05:03:53PM

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Regarding the discussion of "when you can consider yourself a musician", I sometimes think I play like an Oriental Rug...there's always a mistake somewhere in it.  (O.k. so maybe the audience doesn't know -- if I'm lucky.)  My standard reply to the obvious mistakes is "Now you know why I'm a storyteller and not a musician."

Healthy Living- healthy eating, exercise, weight loss, veggie gardening, etc.

OFF TOPIC discussions

Those tomatoes look wonderful.    The woman across the street from us has a huge garden and no one to feed, so we get all hers.

Never heard of taxi, though.

I prefer some fresh mozzarella and basil to sour cream any day.

Healthy Living- healthy eating, exercise, weight loss, veggie gardening, etc.

OFF TOPIC discussions

Oooh... it's later than usual in the season due to our late Spring and then that drought too for a while, but...

We're finally hitting out tomato season!!  This year is a first in that our garden tomato eating is actually overlapping our blueberry picking.  This is what we wait for all year long... the blueberries and the magnificent tomatoes.

Here was our lunch today on the new screen porch, also with cucumbers from the garden.  The yellow is a tomato called "Taxi".   Yeah I probably went a little overboard on the sour cream, but hey.  

 

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I just returned from the Dulcimer U workshop in Cullowhee, NC where my main morning class was Tull Glazener's upper intermediate. He taught us how to take any music score, transpose it to key of D (or what ever key you want), then write the full chord tab for it. He also taught us how to then write other parts to do it as ensemble. No previous knowledge of music theory was necessary, nor did we have to be able to play by ear.

it was an intense week, but I came out of there with a whole new world opened to me. And I am so excited now to know that if I can't find tab for a song I like, it won't be a problem.

Choose just ONE song for all eternity...

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I would have to say "Come By the Hills". It's an Irish traditional tune that I first heard played by Celtic Thunder on one of their CDs. I think because I live in the mountains that it really speaks to me.

 

But I also LOVE "River" too that several of you mentioned. Put the two together and you would need a whole box of tissues to handle the tears.

updated by @marsha-elliott: 07/31/18 02:56:46PM

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Goals. I believe a key factor is:

"What do you want to do with your music." I believe if one can accompany their singing with an instrument, like a dulcimer, and it's acceptible, then you are a musician.

I believe if you can entertain yourself, your family, and/or friends, then you are a musician.

I could go on and on with other examples, bit I'll stop there.

The point is: "YOU WILL KNOW when you are a musician."

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I could open another can of worms by asking when you can consider yourself a musician :)

I find myself looking at a number of lessons on Dulcimer School for Intermediate and Advanced. They may be above my current skill level, but they give me an idea where the gaps are in my knowledge. Sometimes, it's something I've never even heard of. I know musicians use riffs to fill in a melody, but I'd never considered learning a few to add to what I play. I had no idea there was such a thing in the dulcimer world. That's the tough thing about being a beginner when you aren't taking lessons from someone in person. Sometimes it's something you can pick up from watching someone else play, even if it's just a video.

 

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

If any of you are Patreon supporters of Bing Futch, you see that he has just posted materials from his 3-Day Intensive workshops at Evart.  He is doing separate workshops for the beginner, intermediate, and advanced levels.

I just glanced at the material and haven't watched the videos yet, but so far I don't really see much difference between the intermediate and advanced stuff.  He teaches chords in the intermediate level, but he also teaches crosspicking technique there, which in my mind is more challenging than the scales he teaches at the advanced level.  In the arrangements themselves, it appears the advanced stuff is played faster and has more eighth notes, but the intermediate arrangements looked pretty advanced to me.

It's interesting to see his take on these categories. At some point when my work lightens up I'll take a harder look at that material.

I've said before that I don't see any use for these categories other than providing guidance at festivals about what workshops might be appropriate for individual attendees. Perhaps a more useful discussion would be what skills or techniques people have found useful and encourage others to develop.  Maybe an idea for a different discussion . . . 

Thanks Geckostar97 -- Wish I could be credited with the design, but an old boy named Jacob Gross made two round-bottom zithers back in the 1860s -- one fretted, and one bowed.  And his were based on the earlier fretted zithers of the Moravian settlers in PA.  

I may tackle the bowed version next as it's a bit simpler.  Right now I'm staining and sanding and staining again the fretted one, trying to get the color at least close to the original...

The trapezoid and its close cousin, the Tennessee music box, have the potential for great instruments.  Here are two of my recent builds where I added rounded corners and a waist.  As with all of my recent builds, they feature a bowed back and a floating fretboard.  Both instruments have strong voices.  The larger, 27" VSL, twangy due to stiffer bracing and the shorter, 24" VSL, more mellow.  The sound boards were from wood recovered from a house renovation.  I believe they are white cedar.

Thanks for the link. I agree with Ken.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

The one on the "front page"?  That's just a simple trapezoid-shaped dulcimer; a number of us make them.  Some are wider, like the one Stephen has, some are narrower like the attached photo of a museum replica I'm building which was made around the time of the Civil War. 

The body shape comes from the Pennsylvania zithers which came over from Germany in the late 1500s/early 1600s.  

I don't know the maker of Stephen's; you'd have to ask him.

I'm too lazy to search through all of Stephen's videos to find the dulcimer. Do you have a link to the video?

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Just watch his hands!

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Nah, I'm intermediate.

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

This is a good discussion and I remember it being discussed several months ago.  After reading Dusty's Berkley descriptions back then, I moved my rank up to Intermeditate. I still make mistakes while I'm playing but I can cover a lot of them up, too. Ditto everything Terry Wilson said.  I guffawed out loud when I read Skip's description of Beg, Inter, Adv.  Skip, so you have TAB for Flight of the Bumblebee?  Dulcinina

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I really think it's an attitude or state of mind. I was messing around with Southwind yesterday. I played it on the melody strings, sometimes throwing in a few chords. I played it on the upper strings, then the bass strings. I even tried it just on the middle string. I'm still not ready to call myself an intermediate, but that kind of experimentation is what you do when you are moving out of beginner status.

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Beginner-  "What's this?"

Intermediate- "I got most of the notes/chords in most of the tunes today".

Advanced- "Lets play 'Flight of the Bumblebee'".

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions



Lisa, I know you are serious, but you still brought a huge humongous smile to my face.

I certainly can't judge what "level" your career stands. But one thing I do know is this:

"If it wasn't for your videos, I may have given up early on. Far as I am concerned you be a "100." Seriously.

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ken, I'm not ready now to get a new dulcimer with the flexi-frets, but I would like to someday.  I did play one once, though.  I think you are probably right that inserting and removing the frets is not so easy that you'd be putting them in and taking them off in the middle of a jam session.  But it's not that hard either, at least not with the little tool Dwain supplies. I was surprised that the slots were not really noticeable by feel when the frets were not there.  But I only play with my fingers. I wonder if the "empty" slots would affect a noter sliding up and down.  Maybe we can have @elvensong answer these questions when he gets his.

 

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Dusty -- I'll be interested to hear your take on the flexi-frets.  I've heard from others that removing/replacing frets is not as easy/simple as it is made to sound.

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Lucky you! That'll be quite an instrument.

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Dwain is building a Concert Grand for me with flexi-frets. Brilliant idea! Opens up the entire dulcimer fret possibilities on one instrument. I'm hoping to have mine in time for Walnut Valley. 

 

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I'm joining this conversation late, but I do have one suggestion: flexifrets . Flexifrets are frets that can be inserted and taken out by the player.  I might not want to buy a dulcimer with a 4+ fret, but if it were a flexifret, I might be curious. I would still, however, want a 1+, so if you install a flexifret for the 4+, you should also do it for the 1+

Incidentally, Paul Furnas only plays Renaissance and early music, and he claims that even in DAd, a 4+ would be more useful for him than a 1+ or even a 6+.  He brought a diatonic dulcimer to a luthier to add the 4+ fret, but the luthier assumed he misspoke and put on a 6+ instead! (Paul ended up selling that dulcimer.)

Anyway, I've been thinking about getting a dulcimer with a true diatonic fretboard but then adding a flexifret for every half fret, so the dulcimer could function as truly diatonic, fully chromatic, or anything in between.

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I would have no idea how to rank myself or anyone else and I think it's important to point out that there is no perfect way to define dulcimer abilities.  I am sure I know a whole lot more chords than does Ken, but he understands modes in ways I never will.  The skills and knowledge for different styles of play are simply not comparable. Linda Brockinton one of the best fingerpicking dulcimer players around, yet her prowess with a flat pick or quill is pretty limited.

I don't think it is worth working on a skill just because you think you want to advance to some other level of dulcimer playing. Just watch and listen to the people who play in the style that most interests you and keep trying to improve.  That's all that any of us can do.

The only purpose for formal definitions of levels is at festivals to help attendees find the right workshops for their interests and skill levels.  But that's it.  They do not really define objective, measurable skills that everyone develops over time.

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Lisa and Strumalia, Thank you for you responses. This site has lots of good info from people in the trenches. I am thinking of the 1+ and 8+ now considering that I might start experimenting with the mixo. tunings.

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Oops, I answered off the top of my head.  It's true the 4+ is relatively the same fret as the 1+ for your tuning.  But I forgot about how the rest of the scale maps out.  Today I got out a dulcimer and studied the modal charts here .  Assuming my poor muddled brain has it right this time, if you want to play a Dorian scale starting at the 3rd fret you will need both a 4+ fret and an 8+ fret.   

Many tunes don't use the 7th note of the scale, and it's pretty easy to bend a note in the middle of the fretboard, so you could play a lot of Dorian tunes without the 8+ fret.  Still, the 4+ fret is not as magical for CGG tuning as the 1+ is for CGC.  I see several paths forward depending on where you want to go: 

1) You could order a dulcimer with 1+, 4+ and 8+ frets (6+ optional).  This dulcimer would be specialized for Ionian 1-5-5 tunings like CGG.  You might never be able to re-sell it, but it would be quite the conversation piece. 

2) You could get a dulcimer with 1+, 6+ and 8+ frets, which is not uncommon.  Play it in CGG and see what happens.  You'd always have the option to re-tune CGC.  It's not your favorite tuning, but CGC would give you Ionian (with 6+ fret), Mixolydian (no extra frets) and Dorian (with 1+ fret) ready to go.  Not Aeolian though: for that you'd also need... here it comes... the 4+ fret!

3) Get a chromatic fretboard.  Beyond a certain point it is easier to have all the frets and be done with it. 

4) Give up on extra frets and re-tune for Dorian mode (CGF). 

5) Experiment and see which extra frets work for you.  Straighten out a paper clip and use masking tape to hold it in place where the extra fret should be.  A total kludge, but it can be fun. 

I play using 2) and 3) and 4) above on different dulcimers, in different playing styles, as the mood strikes.

updated by @lisa-golladay: 07/28/18 05:19:09PM

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I don't know what I am. But I think, from 0-100, I am perhaps a 57. Yeah, I like 57. In 6 years, never been to a work shop. Jammed with other dulcimer players two times. Have never ever much thought about hammerons....and the other nifty skills mentioned. I still use tab some, but also play by ear. Use two octaves regularly. Love to strum. Play a lot with one and two strings. Have introduced  dulcimer to adults and children. Even when I was a 30 rank. So why a lowly 57? You might ask. Well, most every time there is a new video posted, I am faced with the truth. I KNOW SO LITTLE AND HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO. If the many members , for example, like Mark and Dusty and Christine, weren't so doggone good, then maybe I could be a 63.

updated by @terry-wilson: 07/28/18 07:31:24PM

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Folks, I didn't provide the criteria from the Berkeley Dulcimer Gathering because I agree with the descriptions there or think of it as the standard we should all adopt.  I just wanted people to see an example of descriptions that list some specific techniques, since the original question was about "skills" that would be considered intermediate.

I agree, @banjimer.  However, a lot of workshops don't actually teach skills but teach repertoire.  There are tons of workshops, for example, on Irish jigs or English country dance tunes or whatever.  In those cases, people need to understand the skills they should already have to benefit from the workshops.

Yes, there are plenty of great musicians who can't read music.  But some degree of music literacy is necessary if we are going to talk about how we're playing, to teach and learn from one another.  I give dulcimer lessons at a music store and they get a constant stream of young guitar players who want to teach there.  But many of them have no understanding of the basic concepts of music literacy, so they can't explain how to construct a chord or how long to hold a given note. All they want to do is show people how they play.  That approach is of limited helpfulness.

I agree, Ken.  That's why I asked the question in an earler discussion about when people know they are no longer beginners.  A lot of people hold onto that "beginner" label as a crutch, as a way to lower people's expectations of their playing.  But in my mind if you can follow simple tablature or follow by ear and eyes someone playing a simple song, then you are no longer a beginner.  You've reached a basic level of proficiency that deserves the term "intermediate."

 

BUT . . . at the risk of upsetting many of my dulcimer friends . . . I do think that dulcimer players have two main limitations which impede our progress as musicians.  One is the inability to do anything with the right hand other than strum across all the strings all the time.  The second is the inability to play in keys other than D.

Just because we have three strings doesn't mean we have to play all of them all the time.  We should be willing to sometimes play a single note or sometimes just two. And yes, that might mean working on the right-hand techniques to strum two strings or pluck one-at-a-time.

And if you ever want to join a jam that is not limited to dulcimer players tuned to the key of D, you need to understand how to use your instrument to accompany others playing in other keys.  Without this ability--which requires some basic music literacy--even intermediate and advanced dulcimer players would be considered beginning musicians.  I'm not suggesting that I can jam with a saxophone player in Bb, and I admit to "cheating" by retuning and/or using a capo when I can, but the old timey music scene includes fiddle players who want to play in A and banjo players who want to play in G and so forth.  We should all aspire to being able to join them.

 

Extra Frets for CGG tuning (DAA)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Lisa G. brings up a very good point- a dulcimer with added 4.5 and 11.5 frets would be quite difficult to sell.  Most folks who use extra frets in addition to the common 6.5 fret would want either 1.5 and 8.5 or all the way to chromatic.

FWIW, I play only in noter style and 'usually' in DAA type tuning, but I have found it very useful in oldtime fiddle sessions to have the two extra pairs of frets;  6.5 & 13.5, and also 1.5 & 8.5.  But for relaxed playing at home I do also enjoy and can appreciate a total diatonic fretboard and retuning to different modes while playing older traditional music.

As long as there are still a few diatonic fret spacings I've not found it hard to keep my bearings visually.  Once you get to chromatic I'd recommend having a few inlaid fret markers (like guitars and fretted banjos tend to use).

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I've seen that as an issue for both beginners and intermediate players.  Sometimes we get so focused on not stumbling or playing a single 'wrong' note that we forget about playing expressively and forget about the importance of the right hand as well.

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

That, plus it seems most beginners get caught up in collecting tab and playing only from tab without actually learning to play from memory.  I don't know how many folks I've seen who literally have to use tab to play Boil Them Cabbage!!!

IMHO "Intermediate" is just a state of mind.  If you play better than most of the folks around you, but aren't up to "really good" (in your mind) players,  I'd say you're intermediate.

 

Intermediates

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

To be honest, I wasn't thinking about workshops. I like to be able to judge my progress when I'm learning something. And I like to see more advanced techniques, because then I can see how it fits together. I'm starting to understand how to use chords now. You can play the melody, then drop in a chord at a good spot.

I would say it's possible to be an excellent musician and not read music. It's a good skill to have though. I think it's a good skill to be able to play a melody on the bass string or the high end of the dulcimer. I like the idea of learning riffs, to drop in as needed. I just think that beginners sometimes get so focused on learning a song that they don't understand the ways they can change it around and make it their own.