Forum Activity for @jan-potts

This is an interesting topic to me, Lois, because I play in several different keys (D,G,C,A, Em and some others I probably don't know the name of) without retuning or using a capo.(I do, however, have 1.5 and a 6.5 frets).If other people want to retune or use capos, that's fine, and there will--I'm sure--be exceptions for me here and there. For instance, I use a capo for Reuben's Train. This all comes under the heading of "more than one way to play the dulcimer", I think.

For me, it's just been easier to leave my dulcimer in one tuning (DAd). The majority of the songs I play fall within those 5 keys. As I become more and more familiar with my fretboard, it's easier to try songs in a variety of keys. I do the best in D because that's what I started with, but I'm getting better all the time in switching to , say, G or C.

Until I took music theory classes, I didn't realize that I had always thought of the tunes spatially, or as a series of intervals. To further get the tune down, I thought of the individual notes as having a certain position in a scale (the first note, the fifth note, etc). I now know that these are referred to as "scale degrees" and each degree has its own name--but to keep it simple, they are often referred to by their numbers (with a caret mark " ^ " to show it is a scale degree). I don't know how to type the ^ over the number, however. Anyway, my point is that using scale degrees, "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" will always start 1 1 5 5 6 6 5 4 4 3 3 2 2 1, no matter which key you are in. Still, my brain is probably more aware of the long leaps, short hops, and going up or down step-by-step. The numbers just help me be specific in the path I am taking (without having to name the intervals between the notes --and, yes, they all have names, too).

In a way,tab iskind of like using GPS and the car's step-by-step directions for getting somewhere. My brain wants to see the whole map and then know that I will be making several quick turns at the beginning of the trip, then going a long way on the interstate, then making a couple medium length sections and one final turn before arriving at my destination--and then I put numbers on it so I know I go 3 blocks, then turn left and go 2 blocks, then go 138 miles on I-75, etc. The "big picture" stays in my brain and at any given time I know where I am on it.

That's what music is like for me.

So when someone asks me, "How manytunes do you have memorized?!!" it's kind of like asking me how many ways I have memorized of getting from point A to point B in my hometown. I don't get lost trying to find the public library just because I'm starting out at the post office instead of at my house! The "music map" in my brain is even easier to follow, however, because those intervals stay the same no matter what key you're playing in....you just start out in a different spot.

Good luck with your music journey! A big part of enjoying the journey is finding out how you learn and internalize music.

Jan

My former music teacher worked with me on this, even trying to get me to learn the notes like you might learn multiplication tables for the different keys. Didn't ever get to the point where I can do it automatically. I can figure it out (& am grateful for piano training to make the 1/2 step, whole step dance make sense), but want a good resource to check.

This is especially since the dulcimer's ability to re-tune, & thereby change where the notes are, tends to throw me at times. Yes, I did a bit of Drop D tuning on the guitar, but if I try to think in SMN it takes me a bit to wrap my head about it. My teacher didn't seem to understand this, but to me it was as if the piano suddenly had the keys move, change colors, & generally become altogether different.

What can I say? We all have our mental blocks & weaknesses. I say I'm Numerically Impaired. This is just another way it shows up.

This may also be why tab issomething so many cling to. Personally I find the dulcimer comes the closest to letting me learn a song & not be unable to play without the music. I may have said that in a backward way because I love having the security of the music there, but I can look away a bit more comfortably.

Quick Dumb Question almost erupted. Was going to ask if there's a reason to get the so-called Encyclopedia, too. For now I'll skip the QDQ worry and get Neal Hellman's book. It + the SMN should do all I need at this stage in my development.

Hope the next wanderer on this path of learning finds our discussion useful. Thank you, Wout, Dan, and Ken.

Ken,

Like you, I tend to play pieces with SMN and chords often are listed. Figure the melody note is needed as I need all its help in singing, so that meant figuring out the other 2 notes. Compared to guitar, I'm finding when I want to switch from melody/drone to a bit of actual chord, it's a simpler, but less automatic process than guitar. Yes, a guitar is flexible, too, but most of the time I don't bother with unusual tunings or chords on guitar.

Excellent!

Thanks so much.

It covers just about any key you want and what ever mode.

Thanks, Dan, yes, I read that on the Mel Bay site. My question on that particular book is what keys does it cover? Oh the joys of long-distance book shopping! Definitely not my preferred way, but maybe this discussion will also help others when similarly seeking.

Lois, this little booklet has over 500 chords for 5 widely used modes including Mixoydian, Ionian, Dorian and Aeolian plus Jazz and 4 string chromatic tunings.

Yes, Wout, that lack of fixed tuning keeps cropping up as both a blessing and a curse. Still most of us use Ionian, Mixolidian, or Aeolian, so 7 major keys & minor keys are probably the most used. Yes, people could also do things like A flat, G sharp, etc., but the 14 main keys would seem basic.

Dan, what keys does your book cover? Mel Bayis a standard music publisher, but looking through their listings a while ago and now once again, I find myself with questions. It's the sort of thing handled so easily by browsing, but frustrating long distance. What keys does the Hellman book cover? The "Encyclopedia" omits Aeolian! If I eliminate the books only in the key of D, Mel Bay seems to come down to those 2 books in print or e-version.

Any other options beyond those 2? Even if it's an out-of-print book, there may be ways to find it without needing to create something that should be a standard reference.

Lois, you may want to check the publicaions offered by Mel Bay Publications. The one I have it the "Dulcimer Chord Book" written by Neal Hellman. There are several other dulcimer chord titles in Mel Bays listings. The url is www.melbay.com

As you put it: chord books for the dulcimer are available in the key of D. But are they useful?

The guitar has mostly a fixed tuning (EAdgbe), the dulcimer hasn't.

Playing guitar the chords notationis mostly given added to SMN, above the staff where the song tekst is beneath the staff. The dulcimer mostly uses TAB together with SMN.

If chord books are useful, why shouldn't we, as the FOTMD forum, create our own?

Walkedinto a music store yesterday -- always a dangerous thing! -- and saw guitar chord books. There have been various links and, I believe, even books for dulcimer chords in the key of D. Is there anything for other keys?

If Ican give a title, they can order it. Yes, I can do transposing, or work it up through SMN, but think it shouldn't be necessary to do all of that if someone has already done the work.

What the others have said! Like Robert, I often tune my .014" middle string up to c or d on dulcimers with 27"-28" scale.

Hi Kendra,

These sort of things always depend on the size of the strings AND the length of the scale for your instrument.

If you have a string set designed for DAd then you should be able to tune up to Ddd(bagpipe tuning), and Dcd should be no problem.

Very nice to have all the Ledford instrument owner's in one place, thanks for this information.

Not sure if this helps--I have a 22" VSL travel dulcimer tuned DAD--its strings are:0.026", 0.018", and 0.014.

If the action is reasonable and it tunes /plays DAd OK, it should be just fine, unless there are structural problems. Post a picture. The only other factor is how you intend to teach her/she intends to play. That short of VSL has pretty small spaces between some of the frets, especially higher up, and might be hard for someone with bigger fingers to fret in Chord-Melody style

Thanks Ken, Don't know why I did'nt see this, been there from this site. Your reminder will stay with me for awhile. I will save this site.

Not sure about this Dulcimer, me being fairly new am suggesting she find a at least a student Dulcimer.

If the bass string is .012-13. It may be set up as all strings the same size, dddd. which is also compatible with DAdd.

String gauges are always dependent on two things -- the VSL, which you've given us, and the desired tuning --- DAd which you've also given us. You then use a string gauge calculator, like the one at http://www.strothers.com/string_choice.htm

Plugging in the numbers you get:

D Bass String = 24 (wound)

A Middle Drone = 16

d Melody string = 12

And those gauges should be usable for nearly all of the D tunings.

My friend just got this Dulcimer. Need to replace the strings. They are very small, their bass string looks to be about 012,just a guess. What size recommended and what tuning. Hopefully compatible with me at Dad. Any other thoughts would be great. Like I said its small with 21 3/4" VSL.

Thanks

Dave

I remember that one, actually a pretty well done scene, I daresay the greatest kung fu zither battle ever recorded! I wonder if Jean Ritchie could do that?

Thanks Greg,

I guess you know 'Kung Fu Hustle' then

Kung Fu Hustle zither fight

OK, so it's an extremely cheesy old kung fu movie featuring a dulcimer-like instrument-- still it IS rare indeed to find those 2 of my favorite diversions in one clip !

Congrats Cynthia and Robert on this wonderfully sounding dulcimer.

I am so happy Cynthia that you are buying from Robert, he makes a sweet instrument and I know you will be very pleased.

I love my "Lil' ButterNut" Robert made for me, it is a treasured dulcimer.

I will be anxiously waiting for your unboxing video and best yet your sound test video.

Looking forward to getting this Thursday, and plan to do an unboxing video, so people will see what they will get since you are planning to build several of these. I may just buy the lot! Thank you Robert.

Here is a picture of this dulcimer and its almost identical twin. Both were cut from the same poplar log. You can tell by the birth mark over the upper bout sound hole ... The one on the right is just intonated the other is tempered. Gave me a great opportunity to compare the sound with two instruments that are almost acoustically alike in every other way. This was a fun project... Robert

When Robin said the drones had to be able to tune, DDd sounded like the most obvious successful tuning. Can't help it, I like it, it does something for me. Greta used to stop me from playing, would say enough noter, going nuts - she has not stopped me once with the JI cardboard even. Interesting isn't it? No matter how I'm tuned. Animals know.

Here is this dulcimer tuned ddd bagpipe. Although this dulcimer is clearly optimized for 155 tuning it can play well enough in any tuning. Advice I would give to all is if you can afford a second dulcimer, try to order one in just intonation it is well worth it. Ill be building a few for sale this year, and there are a few other guys on this site who can do the same.Thank you for listening... Robert.

Very interesting. And I guess if the ET folks are off all the time, some of the JI folks can be off some of the time, LOL

robert schuler said:

So what if you take your JI dulcimer to the club and everybody is boiling there cabbages in DAd ?. You can tune to DAd. The only note thats really sour is the E at the first and eight fret when played against the drones. Others like f#, d, a are sweeter than a Jersey peach...Here is a clip of sweet & sour liza jane... As I play the scale note the E, and the C is natural since no half fret. One trick I learned from fiddlers is to play fast and nobody will notice if your out of tune ...

What about Chords?. Mostly they sound ok just a bit new age . The A is a bit sour. In the clip Bile them sourkrauts down, I play the A as 1-0-1 then with the C# 1-2-1 followed by D, built up 5 ways followed by G 3-0-0 and 0-0-3. Anybody who plays more than three chords is just a showoff . Im a lifelong dedicated ND man so my chord playing is a bit sloppy. But I think DAd tuning is not out of the question on this instrument... Bob.

Robert, thanks for the examples, they are really interesting. In the Liza Jane scale the B is a little flat to my ear in addition to the E. But I would expect that since the calculator is designed around a scale starting at the 3rd fret rather than the scale starting on the open string.

So what if you take your JI dulcimer to the club and everybody is boiling there cabbages in DAd ?. You can tune to DAd. The only note thats really sour is the E at the first and eight fret when played against the drones. Others like f#, d, a are sweeter than a Jersey peach...Here is a clip of sweet & sour liza jane... As I play the scale note the E, and the C is natural since no half fret. One trick I learned from fiddlers is to play fast and nobody will notice if your out of tune ...

What about Chords?. Mostly they sound ok just a bit new age . The A is a bit sour. In the clip Bile them sourkrauts down, I play the A as 1-0-1 then with the C# 1-2-1 followed by D, built up 5 ways followed by G 3-0-0 and 0-0-3. Anybody who plays more than three chords is just a showoff . Im a lifelong dedicated ND man so my chord playing is a bit sloppy. But I think DAd tuning is not out of the question on this instrument... Bob.

Then it seems as if we may be somewhat in tune with each other on the subject of meantone fretting Robin !

John

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your comments and the demonstrations of your JI dulcimer. I think that the term 'calming' is very apt. For 1-5-5 and 5-1-1 and perhaps 1-5-7 then JI works very well (1-5-5 being 'perfect'). However, for those looking for more flexibility then 1/4 comma meantone or ET are going to be a better option. I would probably recommend that newer players go with ET as it is the most adaptable and easiest to tune to using an electronic tuner. The dissonance of ET is subtle and it would take many years of musical experience to be able to distinguish the difference between the temperaments. For my personal playing I'm pretty used to working with as many different temperaments as I have old dulcimers, as they are all different And most of those old dulcimer builders were not consistent instrument to instrument. But you can hear from the recordings I have posted (up around 100 now I think) that, for noter drone playing, the notes of the scale can to some extent 'drift' yet the instrument remains perfectly playable as long as your tuning matches the instrument in front of you.

And that I think is the major point of all this - it really is worth spending time getting your open strings tuned to the best possible match foryour dulcimer, whatever its fret temperament. The delight of JI is that the open strings can all be blended perfectly for 1-5-5 and then everything up the scale is also perfect - just don't take an electronic tuner anywhere near the dulcimer

Robert again, sounds so fine. I agree about the healing soothing sounds of JI, even on that simple cardboard one I got, and it gives it a more old-timey sound too to me. People start smiling the second they hear that sound.

Robert, I believe you taught me some about dissonance with this demonstration.

Thanks for your efforts, this is how I learn about music. This really sounds great.

Here is a clip in DAa that takes in the entire scale top to below bottom. Note how well melody played the low D string harmonizes with two droning A's, and how D at the 17th fret stays in tune with the drones. One thing I get from playing in just intonation is a calming, soothing, healing feeling. Probably from the lack of dissonance inherit in just intonation... Robert.