Forum Activity for @ken-longfield

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I usually try to tune "dead on" when I'm playing alone or with a group. This means I have to adjust the tuning after playing a while as the temperature changes in the room where I play most often. If I can get the needle on my tuner in the center for all three strings I'm happy. An addition to your question Nate "is to what standard do you tune?" I use A440 which our group uses. I think most orchestras these days use a standard of A442 and I've been reading that some groups are going up to A448 or in that neighborhood to "sweeten" the sound. Now having said all that, often when playing alone I'll just tune the dulcimer to itself. 

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I think repertoire and whether or not one plays alone make big differences in what is "good enough".  

For me, I use a Peterson tuner and Mark and I both try to be very much in tune with one another or we'll make our tunes even worse.     When I'm playing by myself, I like to be in tune with myself or it can drive me a little crazy.  

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Since I seldom play with others and I'm not haunted by perfect pitch or ADHD, as long as nothing is too sharp or flat, "in the vicinity of..." work for me. 

How precisely do you tune up?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hey folks 

Id love some input on how close you get your tuning to perfect before calling it "good enough"

I personally try to tune within 3 cents of exactly on note,(3/100ths of a semitone) and I am curious what is 'normal/common'

Thanks for any input

Nate

updated by @nate: 02/03/24 12:06:46AM

Any banjo players out there?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Jalan Crossland is an absurd talent 

Any banjo players out there?

Adventures with 'other' instruments...

 
Thank you for your offer I appreciate that. So far so good but if I have any questions I'll definitely take the opportunity to ask.
 
Those banjo-leles seem like a lot of fun. I just got everything I need to make myself a banjo drumhead, and a banjolele is going to be the first thing I try making.
 
That is very cool! I did not know his name, but I'm a big fan of Molly Tuttle with Golden Highway, which he is the banjo player for. Definitely an extremely talented and entertaining banjo player. There seem to be a lot of very talented banjo players coming out of the modern "folk punk" bluegrass scene. A few that come to mind are Billy Failing, Jalan Crossland, Matt Heckler and now, Kyle Tuttle

Nate
updated by @nate: 02/02/24 06:24:17PM

How do I create a new forum discussion?

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Hi Sandra. You can read this here discussion to leanr how to create a new discussion thread. Then, go to our For Sale/Wanted forum:
https://fotmd.com/forums/forum/for-saleinstruments-music-items-cds-wanted-to-buy

...and start your new thread about the dulcimer you are Wanting. Choose a title for your thread that lets folks know what it's about.  Thanks!

How do I create a new forum discussion?

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Am looking for a mcspadden ginger , key of d,

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Matt is correct in his pointing out that raising the nut (or zero fret) has benefits in achieving the lowest overall action.  Someone has done the analysis to prove that raising it about 0.005 from dead flat allows for keeping the action lower at the saddle.  To that end, I use a zero fret that is about 0.005 higher than the jumbo frets on the rest of the fretboard.  One of the advantages of the bolt on neck that I use is that I can adjust the spacer under the zero fret to fine the action a few thousandths up or down from there as required during setup.  The rest of the fretboard is flat when the strings are not at tension.  Under tension the fretboard bows very slightly, perhaps simulating the curve that Dwain explained.

Intonation Problems

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Thanks all for your generosity in sharing suggestions. Can't wait to get started!

Intonation Problems

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At the risk on being a contrarian, I have had good success with keeping my dulcimer from going sharp as you go up the frets a different way that also helps with the bass buzzing problem.  Rather than focusing on the saddle height, I find adjusting the nut or zero fret slightly higher allows me to keep a more consistent and lower action across the fret board.  Yes, definitely, it sounds like your saddle is too high.  When you get that resolved, and if you are in the mood for even more fine tuning, try raising your nut by maybe 10% and see if you can adjust your saddle down about the same percent.  As with any adjustment, your mileage will vary.

Intonation Problems

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This is very insightful I did not know about that feature. Thanks for the information,
Nate

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 

Some builders do build flat fretboards. When there are as many frets as the dulcimer has, though, the problem of getting the lowest action becomes very much like that of designing auditorium seating.

Imagine an auditorium in which the seating floor is flat: even if everyone is the same height, people will have trouble seeing over the heads of those in the next row. And in the foremost rows (that cost the most to get), you begin to see less and less of the performers!

So the answer is to make the floor a long sweeping curved surface sloping gently down, each row a little lower than the one behind. That works well until about 2/3 down toward the stage: at that point the person in the next row are no longer the issue. Now the problem is that you can't see all of what's happening on-stage. So the floor has to start to rise so each row is a bit higher than the one before. Then each person can see everything on the stage.

So think of the string's "line of sight" as it is fretted at each fret, and design your fretboard so that, at each fret position, the height above the further frets is equal. If you're good at trigonometry you can solve the problem as one of the string forming a constant angle when fretted at each angle such that the sine of the angle is just a bit greater than the top of the next fret's crown. Since the distance between frets is exponential, that fretboard surface will be very interesting mathematically. (I've never done it mathematically. I prefer the heuristic method in instrument building, not analytics —except in the matter of setting frets in equal temperament).

Intonation Problems

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Dwain, could you please explain this more, I was not aware of this. I have only built with flat fingerboards so I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by 'concave dish.'
Thanks
Nate
updated by @nate: 02/01/24 08:43:05PM

Intonation Problems

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That's a great idea! just remember to replace the nut with a packing piece so it is level with the fingerboard before starting.

Every dulcimer will have its own fingerboard 'profile,' meaning a concave 'dish', though some makers prefer to build with a flat fingerboard, I hear.

For what it's worth, I set the nut height at .015" higher than the fret crown I'm using. That seems about right for the way I profile the fingerboard.

updated by @dwain-wilder: 02/01/24 08:14:05PM

Is there an option to order replies from oldest to newest ?

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Nicolas, on almost any device- a phone, laptop, desktop, or tablet... there are quick keyboard or 'tap' commands that allow one to zip right to the top or bottom of a page. You might find such shortcuts come in handy to get places more quickly.
Thanks!

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Three dimes seems like a TON of extra height by the nut. I hope that isn't due to warping or bowing.

If you have a nice straight edge on a metal yardstick or something like that, you could set it along the fretboard and observe if the straight edge touches all the frets, or if some of them are lower/higher. It is possible that some frets have risen slightly out of their slots and need to be 'tapped' back into place.

It can be helpful to check each fret with a tuner and note how out of tune each fret is. If the first couple of frets are the most out of tune, the issue is most likely your nut being too high. If the frets get more out of tune as you get closer to the octave, you most likely need to move or reduce the height of your bridge.

Once the frets are all level and the action is correct, you will most likely have to readjust your bridge placement anyway. 
Tune the string up to tension and get it exactly to the desired note. Use a tuner to compare the open string to the note at the 7th fret (octave) If the octave is  flat, the bridge needs to be moved *closer to the nut* If the octave is sharp, the bridge needs to be moved *away from the nut*

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Bob Stephens dulcimers are absurdly cool. I haven't had the privilege of playing one but the engineering is fascinating and the tone is definitely distinctive. They incorporate a lot of design elements that you won't find in any other instruments. They may look 'guitar-like' but they are very optimized dulcimers. Features like the floating neck and internal soundboard are examples of taking things that are distinctive about a dulcimer and pushing them further.

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 
I saw a courting dulcimer on this site years ago and haven't been able to find it since. It had fingerboards that did not extend to any edges of the box, and both pegboxes were on one side of the instrument. When I realized that the fingerboard doesnt need to go all the way to the box edges, and that the pegbox can be at either end of the strings, I made this dulcimer

updated by @nate: 02/01/24 05:50:11PM

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The dulcimer played by John in the video does not seem to be a courting dulcimer, like the one in the patent document. The fingerboards are both facing the same way, and don't seem to be laid out in a way that would be easy for two people to reach both fingerboards at once. The fact that it is only one octave is the main reason I am guessing that John's second fingerboard is for lower pitch notes. It would not need the second octave, since the higher notes are already on the other fretboard.

Is there an option to order replies from oldest to newest ?

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Thank you for the clarification, at least I know there is nothing to “figure out” :)

the best of both worlds would indeed be the ability to switch between most recent to a kind of chronological order. 

what would be great is a “jump to bottom” option so that someone reading a post that already has a lot of replies would be able to quickly see the first message without having to scroll all the way down. 

i appreciate the huge task that administrating a forum like this one can be. Thanks again to everyone dedicating time to make this happen. 

have a good day everyone 

nicolas

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 

Yes, I wasn't quite clear on that was I? The dime is place on the fret board. The nickel is placed on top of the fret.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song"

Intonation Problems

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[/quote]. A set of number drills (1-60) is great for this, since each drill is a very small variant of its neighboring drills' diameter. So remove the bridge and substitute a number drill. [quote="Dwain Wilder"]

[/quote] 

Thanks for reminding me of this Dwain. I think you either mentioned this to me some other time or you wrote it somewhere and I forgot all about it. I think this is a very sensible way to adjust string height. I appreciate your sharing it again.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

updated by @ken-longfield: 02/01/24 08:29:28PM

Intonation Problems

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Can you specify when placing the dimes or nickels- the coins should be placed on top of the fret, right? (not on the wood of the fretboard surface between or next to the frets).

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@Bob-Stephens really does use a floating neck that does not come in contact with the soundboard.  His dulcimers also have a false bottom, so both top and bottom are free to vibrate. You can see some pictures here on his website and also in some of the pictures he has posted to FOTMD . He uses a metal rod that runs the length of the neck to enhance stability and reduce the need for excessive bracing of the soundboard.

He is a member here and has explained the evolution of his design principles elsewhere, so I won't go into more details (which I don't understand, honestly). One of those discussions is Floating Fretboards .

David Beede uses the same floating fretboard principle on his octave dulcimers.  (Or rather he did, until he stopped building.)  The fretboard is attached to the body with two or three metal dowels that drive sound vibrations directly into the sound chamber. I have one of these little dulcimers and am constantly amazed how much volume can emerge from such a small instrument. It's like the dulcimer version of Taylor's GS-Mini.  The "decoupled tailpiece" principle that David used on his full-size dulcimers is similar to a "discontinuous" fretboard to which Ken refers.

I have not yet played a dulcimer by Bob Stephens but I have a wooden, nylon-string dulcimer on order and will surely post a video or two after it arrives. (I have to specify "wooden" because he is now making dulcimers using 3-D printing for nearly everything but the top.)  I ordered one because I love the idea of a dulcimer specifically designed for nylon strings and look forward to exploring the different tonal possibilities of that instrument. Bob worked with Aaron O'Rourke on the nylon-string dulcimers and has been working with Butch Ross on the steel-string dulcimers. You can find them demonstrating those models on YouTube if you search for a moment or two. 

And here is Steve Eulberg demonstrating an earlier version of the nylon-string dulcimer .  When he turns the dulcimer on its side with the camera from above (1:17-1:27), you can see the space in between the neck and the soundboard.

updated by @dusty: 02/01/24 03:15:23PM

Intonation Problems

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This is genius. What about the nut? Remove that and replace with a closely sized bit, too?

Intonation Problems

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I agree.

One way to finalize the optimum action height the dulcimer is capable of is to find out the minimum saddle height at which the bass string doesn't buzz, then add .005". A set of number drills (1-60) is great for this, since each drill is a very small variant of its neighboring drills' diameter. So remove the bridge and substitute a number drill. Intonation doesn't matter for this test of course, but you do want to be tuned to playing pitch.

Pluck the bass string at each fret forcefully (sideways, not vertically). Substitute the next smaller or larger drill bit shank, depending on whether you find a buzzing fret. If you find a buzz on only a single fret, consider dressing that fret crown down a bit. After you've found a drill shank that represents the minimum action height on the bass, check for buzzes on the other strings. That's a check of the whole fingerboard's surface regularity, and the possibility that some frets aren't well seated or have worn or grooved crowns.

updated by @dwain-wilder: 02/01/24 02:13:40PM

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

ok so it's the fret pattern, not technically the 'pegbox' or tuning mechanisms that are opposite mirrored for duet playing. I was just assuming the peghead was usually at the 'fret 1' end of the fretboard, but there's nothing saying you can't put the tuning pins at what we consider to be the tail end of the box.

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Yes, they are mirrored. Somewhere in my files I have some photos of early courting dulcimers. I'll try to see if I can find one, digitize it, and share it here. It may take me a while to do so.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@ken-longfield Great info, saved for future reference, thank you

@dulcimaryland Looking for ward to hearing your results and experience. 🍿

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks, Ken. The action is significantly higher than that; I could probably put 3 dimes!

This is a great place to start 

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The first thing I would do is check to see that, if the bridge is moveable, it is in the right place. If it isn't moveable, checking the action is a good start. A general rule of thumb is that the strings should just touch a dime when placed next to the first fret. I place the dime on the side toward the second fret. Then place a nickel on the seventh fret and the strings should just touch the nickel. If that adjustment doesn't work, then I would calculate the proper fret spacing for the vibrating string length of the dulcimer. Some programs let you print out a template. I would use this to check the fret spacing and re-fret if necessary.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

updated by @ken-longfield: 02/01/24 12:00:41PM

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

KenL- but... are those also having the frets going in the same direction? I suspect the fret pattern will be 'mirrored' if intended for couple playing on facing knees... even if the tuning mechanisms (pins, pegs) are both on the same end. Hmm, I probably should have clarified that.

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@lilley-pad My experience is I play the mountain dulcimer with the sound I want to fit the repertoire(s) I want to play.  Also, my experience is there is no Holy Grail. Depending on style of play and repertoire, one instrument may suit over another.    

Bob Stephens is a member here at FOTMD and you can find his page by searching members.  Here is a video of Aaron O'Rourke playing a prototype (so, an early model) of one of Bob's wonderful-sounding dulcimers: 

https://youtu.be/EPClQt6v0Z0?si=0D_xkDv1OR9fTkH7

updated by @robin-thompson: 02/01/24 12:34:58PM

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Strumelia, I'm glad that you wrote "in general" as there are courting dulcimers out there that do have two fret boards with the peg heads at the same end of the dulcimer but fretted for playing by two people sitting knee to knee. I think this design makes the dulcimer shorter and easier to carry because you don't have peg heads sticking out on both ends.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Vintage dulcimer information sought

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I paid C$129.00.(plus tax).

Intonation Problems

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I have an old dulcimer, 1977, which has an intonation problem. It frets sharp. I'm handy enough that I'm willing to attempt to fix it myself. I suspect that if I lower the action, it might fix the intonation. Am I on the right track or is my only option to adjust the distance between the nut and bridge?

updated by @dulcimaryland: 02/01/24 08:32:00PM

instrument question- Stephens Lutherie/holy grail dulcimer?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Like John I've not heard of Stephens Lutherie.  And I also agree with John that there is no one Perfect Dulcimer, ... there is only what YOU find best for your playing style  Having just googled Stephens, I see a guitar luthier trying to improve the mountain dulcimer... 

The "floating fretboard" you see isn't that.  That's a "discontinuous" fretboard.  99% of dulcimer have a fretboard that runs all the way from the head to the tail.  The fretboard you see is 'guitar-like' -- it stops after the last fret, then there is nothing until a block for holding the bridge in its proper location and height.   

Some people will try to tell you that having the fretboard stop short will increase the tops' ability to flex and produce better sound. Truth is such an arrangement requires a lot of extra bracing under the top to prevent string pressure from warping the top downward.  That bracing does more to dampen sound than improve it and negates almost any advantage you might gain.

  Unlike the guitar, the dulcimer simply does not have enough top area available for such a scheme to work well.  I build a number of similar dulcimers 30 or more years ago, but discontinued the process because it was a lot more labor intensive for very little, if any measurable improvement in the sound quality.

John Molineux box dulcimer

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

 

As a professional patent illustrator for a living over the past 25 years and counting, i can maybe shed some light on that. 
There are utility patents and design patents. Utility patents cover the creation of a new or improved product, process, or machine- patenting its function -how it's used and how it works. (example: a new type of braking system for a bicycle or train)  Design patents protect how an article looks - its shape, configuration or surface ornamentation. (example, a new designer backpack or lamp)

If a new invention contains both unique function/use AND unique shape, appearance, or decoration, one can apply for both utility and design patents for that article.

We'd have to see the 'prospectus' or description accompanying that 1880s patent in order to see what aspects were being applied for. Perhaps it was the first US patent for a double fretboard box zither to be played by two people (utility patent). OR, perhaps it was for having those shape-note like indicators for each note right on the fretboard, as a music reading aid system (design patent). Could be any combination of a number of things both functional and design-wise being applied for. The official Patent Office description accompanying the drawings would explain what exactly was being patented.

updated by @strumelia: 02/01/24 10:42:54AM