12 String Guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
Yes I know both ( Leadbelly and Leo Kottke), alas my capabilities are not so high.
Lol@Pete Seeger quote :D
Forum Activity for @jost
virtual fest from Hindman KY
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
I've enjoyed both Don's and Joellen's presentations. I was disappointed in yesterday's presentation on Troublesome Creek instruments as they couldn't get the Powerpoint to work. I hope they get it together by the Traditional Dulcimore Gathering in Berea as Doug is to present the Powerpoint there also. Looking forward to Don's workshop this afternoon.
Ken
"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."
virtual fest from Hindman KY
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
I've enjoyed the segments I've watched of the Hindman Dulcimer Homecoming! The fest continues today (Sat 9 April '22) and ends with an evening concert.
12 String Guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
jost: An understandable sentiment. I love finger-style guitar (listening and playing) and this is just not possible for me with the 12 string. On the other hand the 12 string is great for songs with heavy strumming (Eg Star of the county down, The Blacksmith etc).
It is perfectly possible to play fingerstyle on a twelve string. Leadbelly did it. So did Leo Kottke. Check this out.
The real problem with 12 strings was expressed by Pete Seeger: You spend half your life tuning your guitar and the other half playing out-of-tune.
12 String Guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
Dusty Turtle:
Just noticed this post, @jost. How's the 12-string been treating you? I have a 12-string guitar made in Canada by Seagull that I bought several years ago, just before I discovered the dulcimer. It's fun to play something with such a full sound, isn't it?
Well up to now I didn't have much time for music since my last post here due to the workload on my employer. Now I'm on a two week vacation so more time for music :D
The full sound is really the nice thing, same why I prefer playing with two melody strings on the dulcimer and what I love about my Hummel.
Ken Hulme:
I don't play, but have several friends and bandmates who play 12 strings, and I know 3 players of 24 and 30 string Harp Guitars -- talk about "full sound"!"
Hollar when you're ready, Jost, and I'll build you the dulcimer equivilent -- 9 strings (3 courses of three strings each), on a 3" deep x 9" wide body, 27" VSL, with a double-back like a Galax.
Yeah I knew of harp guitars. They are heavily used in Viennas "Schrammel Music" (named after Schrammel brothers who popularized these in Viennas wine pubs at the end of 19th century):
As far I know you can get them only custom built so for the moment out of my financial and musical capabilities.
Interesting enough there used to be a so called "Bass lute" which was basically a lute guitar with extra bass strings:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Basslaute
Concerning the dulcimer equivalent: I already own a eight stringed hummel ;) And I fear the transatlantic shipment costs from your place to mine would cost more than the actual instrument. A more radical "12 stringed dulcimer" would be the hungarian zither the maker of my Dulcimer offers them too (with 19 strings!):
https://www.klangwerkstatt.de/ungarische-zither
Ken Longfield:
I didn't notice this post before either. My only experience with at 12 string guitar was a Yamaha that a college roommate owned. I played around with it some, but I never got into it. That was over 50 years ago. I do like the sound of a 12 string, but it is not something I enjoy playing.
An understandable sentiment. I love finger-style guitar (listening and playing) and this is just not possible for me with the 12 string. On the other hand the 12 string is great for songs with heavy strumming (Eg Star of the county down, The Blacksmith etc).
Composition in G minor
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Do you have a sheet? I think a G minor tuning might work for Noter/Drone playing and would like to try this. Since you clearly want to play with chords this is propably not of much help to you though.
And thanks for the youtube recommendation: It's a lovely tune.
Composition in G minor
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Thanks for the suggestion. Could be done but I want the minor chord to play open. Plus, there’s a certain sound quality when one tunes down to CGc and capo the first fret. I’ve noticed this on song arrangements by Jessica Comeau. So this is what I will stick with…for now.
I’ll hopefully post up a video soon of the piece
Dusty Turtle:
I would transpose to Bm. Then your chords would be Bm, D, and A. You'd be all set in either DAd or DAA. No need for a capo.
Composition in G minor
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
I would transpose to Bm. Then your chords would be Bm, D, and A. You'd be all set in either DAd or DAA. No need for a capo.
Composition in G minor
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
I was thinking that but seems like too much of a hassle. Tonight I ended up transposing to D minor. Tuned to Cgc with capo on the first fret. Chord progression now is Dm, Fmaj & Cmaj. Able to play all the notes without adding temp frets. But thanks o plenty for your suggestion.
Btw, the musical pc is Cantiga #302 from the 13th century. Look it up on Youtube, its a beautiful medieval song.
Skip:
You will probably need a chromatic or use temporary frets [paper clips about .040 or tooth picks may work] , tmp frets 0+, 4+, no capo [DAd. Can capo at 3 [DAd] by adding a temp fret at 7+ also.
Composition in G minor
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
You will probably need a chromatic or use temporary frets [paper clips about .040 or tooth picks may work], tmp frets 0+, 4+, no capo [DAd. Can capo at 3 [DAd] by adding a temp fret at 7+ also.
Show Us Your Pets!
OFF TOPIC discussions
Oh the life of the beloved household cat. I'm glad they are so pleased to own you.
How do we indicate the extra fret in tablature
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Thank you. We were talking and I guessed 6 1/2 but after thinking for a bit, 6+ seemed like it'd be easier to write.
Lucky guess on my part.
thanks!!
Composition in G minor
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Hi all,
I have a pc I want to arrange for mountain dulcimer. It's traditionally played in G minor. Altogether 3 chords, G Minor, Bb major and F major. I'm wondering what's the best approach to playing this. I usually toggle between a Dad tuning or a Cgc. If you were to tackle this, would you simply transpose it to a key favouring popular dulcimer tunings or would you keep the chords the same and capo in some way?
To be honest, I'd really prefer the G minor to be an open strum.
updated by @canadian-dulcimer-boy: 04/07/22 01:46:39PM
How do we indicate the extra fret in tablature
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
6+ is exactly right, @melvoid. We use the + for extra frets so that someone with a true diatonic fretboard and someone with extra frets can still refer to frets using the same numbers.
How do we indicate the extra fret in tablature
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
P.S. Thanks for all the "welcome" messages!
How do we indicate the extra fret in tablature
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
I give lessons and one of my guitar students recently mentioned an interest in dulcimer. I'm not an expert on the dulcimer, by any means. My dulcimer has the standard layout, meaning that from the zero fret up, I can get mostly a major scale, but with a flat 7th. My student recently bought on with that extra fret, allowing a true major scale. She borrowed mine first, and we started writing tablature, and now with the new one, and an extra fret, we thought maybe we'd refer to that as 6+ or something so the existing tab isn't changed.
Any suggestions for how to handle this?
Thanks!
12 String Guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
I didn't notice this post before either. My only experience with at 12 string guitar was a Yamaha that a college roommate owned. I played around with it some, but I never got into it. That was over 50 years ago. I do like the sound of a 12 string, but it is not something I enjoy playing.
Ken
"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."
worldwide Play Music on the Porch Day
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Folks, I hope y'all have the last Saturday in August marked on your calendars for the annual worldwide celebration Play Music On The Porch Day! Here at our house, we are practicing the one we think we'll play for PMOTPDay. 
12 String Guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
I don't play, but have several friends and bandmates who play 12 strings, and I know 3 players of 24 and 30 string Harp Guitars -- talk about "full sound"!"
Hollar when you're ready, Jost, and I'll build you the dulcimer equivilent -- 9 strings (3 courses of three strings each), on a 3" deep x 9" wide body, 27" VSL, with a double-back like a Galax.
updated by @ken-hulme: 04/07/22 07:22:55AM
12 String Guitar
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
Just noticed this post, @jost. How's the 12-string been treating you? I have a 12-string guitar made in Canada by Seagull that I bought several years ago, just before I discovered the dulcimer. It's fun to play something with such a full sound, isn't it?
Wormy Chestnut for dulcimers - Clifford Glenn
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Banjimer:
Most of the dulcimer builders who grew up in the tradition tuned their instruments for just intonation to sweeten the blending of the melody and drones. Modern dulcimer makers use a different intonation (equal temperament) which blends more readily into triads (3-note chords) to facilitate modern chord melody styles.
The older, traditional "just intonation" gives the most traditional dulcimer sound with the bass and middle drone strings ringing out a constant 1-5 drone against the changing melody. Leonard and Clifford Genn, Edd Presnell, Homer Ledford, A.W. Jeffreys, and a few others continued to use the just tempered scale, and their instruments were made with the drones in mind.
To get one of those sweet sounding "just intonation" instruments like the Glenns made, you need to find one of their instruments in the used marketplace or purchase an instrument from one of a handful of traditional builders. You will find them in the The Traditional Appalachian Dulcimer (TTAD) forum. They build beautiful traditional dulcimers based on the tried and true techniques of the Glenns and others.
Your post is so informative--thank you for posting it.
Wormy Chestnut for dulcimers - Clifford Glenn
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Strumelia:
There is nothing particularly special about 'banjo strings' vs 'dulcimer strings'... except in relation to their being offered in convenient pre-packaged sets. Banjo 'sets' are geared towards banjo scale length (generally 25"-30") and standard banjo tuning: gDGBD (the last D being an octave higher than the first D, equal to a dulcimer high d).
The reason old timers and older books mention using banjo strings is not because they thought banjo strings were better suited than dulcimer strings. Rather, it's simply because there didn't used to BE many places to buy pre-packaged sets of 'dulcimer strings' in those pre-1970s days, whereas banjo string sets have been around for a lot longer and were way easier to find in music stores. Old timers were resourceful and used whatever they could get their hands on. This was pre-internet- there were no websites to order strings from- you had to either go to a music store or order from a paper catalogue using stamps envelopes and sending checks. (and then "allow 6 to 8 weeks for delivery", LOL)
The truly best approach is to use a string calculator (Strothers is the current best one online) and based on the VSL of YOUR dulcimer and the notes that YOU want to tune the strings to, select the gauges you'll need for that tuning. Then buy some separate steel strings (usually loop-end) from a site like juststrings .com. Have some extras on hand for breakage. If you have a typical sized dulcimer and simply want to use typical DAd or DAA type tunings, you can buy packets of dulcimer string 'sets' and it'll work just fine in most cases. It's convenient if you don't need anything out of the norm.
Commercial strings heavier than a certain gauge will more likely be wound, which you'll notice when ordering strings online. If you have your heart set on unwound heavy bass strings then you 'may' have to buy a spool of that heavy gauge music wire and cut/twist your own unwound bass strings. It depends on just how heavy the gauge is that you want. Personally, I found heavy unwound bass strings to really hurt my fingers when fretting, so I do use wound heavy bass strings on my banjos and dulcimers. If you always play with a noter this wouldn't matter.
Thank you for such a detailed post on strings ... this is very enlightening!
Dulcimer in my car.
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
I saw this question and then lost it.
I have two “practice sticks”.
it just the fretboard. With the frets I use.
I got one from Backyard Instruments and the other from Grant Olson.
I keep one in the car.
Show Us Your Pets!
OFF TOPIC discussions
@alphie There's no accounting for tastes in music or anything else. :)
Introduce Yourself!
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Have fun, Alphie! I finished a McSpadden kit last Saturday! It's so much fun building, especially when all the hard work has been done by somebody else. Good to have you with us. We'll try to help you with whatever.
Introduce Yourself!
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Hi, I’m newer to this website and very pleased with all the information available. I recently visited Branson and bought a kit from Cedar Creek Dulcimers. Took about a week to assemble it. I’m pleased with the unit and it’s fun learning. Hope to improve my knowledge/skills over time, but it’s really for personal pleasure. Thank you all for the information all of you share.
Simerman Dulcimers
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Beautiful job, Ken. Nina
How does your pet react to your Dulcimer playing?
OFF TOPIC discussions
Well, my Cat doesn’t care at all. My Lab lays next to me and wags her tail when I pet her in between songs. My Australian Shepherd leaves the room.
Show Us Your Pets!
OFF TOPIC discussions
Our Aussie. I think he has perfect pitch since when I play he leaves the room.
Simerman Dulcimers
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Ken, great job! I bet she's tickled.
Simerman Dulcimers
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Thanks Robin.
Ken
"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."
Simerman Dulcimers
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
A friend of mine had an accident with her Simerman dulcimer and asked if I could repair it for her. Here are before and after photos. I learned that having lots of small sound holes make a repair of this type very difficult.
Ken
"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."
What's the scoop on "scoops"?
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Corvus: Thanks for the additional input. The variety of picking and strumming styles is one of the things that make dulcimers fascinating. I've played the banjo for about 12 years and the dulcimer requires a whole different skill set. I'm looking forward to the challenge!
Any banjo players out there?
Adventures with 'other' instruments...
Been playing banjo since 2008, the longest out of all my string endeavors lol. Been picking on dulcimers since 2015, learning on the first one I made. Here’s a duet video I made playing the tune “Hunt the Buffalo” on mountain banjo and dulcimer.
updated by @noah-cline: 04/01/22 01:06:51PM
What's the scoop on "scoops"?
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
I find that playing over a dulcimer strum hollow is the perfect place for me to play. I use a thumb pick and finger picks, and the extra space between the strings and wood top allow me to use my playing technique without any compromises whatsoever.
Also, I much prefer the dulcimer tone I get from playing over the strum hollow. I play the dulcimer because of the bright dulcimer tone, and the strum hollow area produces that bright, cutting tone perfectly for me. If I wanted a mellow tone, I'd just play a guitar. To my ears, playing over the fretted areas sounds like a second rate guitar. But a guitar can NEVER get that beautiful, bright dulcimer sound you get from playing over the strum hollow.
Remember, it's all about personal preference, we all hear differently, people have different musical needs, there's no right or wrong and diversity rules.
What's the scoop on "scoops"?
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Wow, even more interesting dulcimer information to store in my memory banks! Thanks again for the great instruction!
What's the scoop on "scoops"?
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Which is why some older dulcimer ancestors had their frets right along the edge of the instrument- because either they had no raised fretboard, or one that was less than 1/2" tall off the top of the instrument. Having the frets run along the edge of the body enabled using a noter when the frets were on or immediately above the soundboard itself. Imagine trying to use a noter on frets that are installed down the middle of the soundboard, directly into the instrument top rather than on a raised fretboard.
One of the very definitions of the mountain dulcimer specifies it having a "raised fretboard running down the center of the instrument". Many instruments that are earlier dulcimer ancestors have frets along one edge of the instrument- epinettes, hummels, langspils...
As to strum hollows and 'sweet spots', it's true that the mellowest sound of all will come from plucking/strumming a string near the halfway suspension point. Yet violinists, guitarists, banjoists, etc don't generally bow/strum/pick in the middle between nut and bridge. Some oldtime banjo players play "up the neck" to get a particular soft mellow effect, but bluegrass, tenor, classic, and Irish banjo players play near the bridge purposely because they like the crisp snappier sound. The strings are more rigid to play on right next to the bridge, with almost no flex. So most folks feel more comfortable plucking/strumming several inches away from the bridge, where the strings begin to have more give. On the other hand, bowing at the halfway point creates just too much string bouncing and flexing, thus a bow is usually kept pretty close to the bridge where the string tension is stiffer. Another physical issue is that the halfway point is where the seventh fret octave is, and people do a LOT of fretting in that area- you can't be both fretting and strumming or picking in the same area at once. (I'm assuming folks define the 'sweet spot' not as exactly the halfway point, but rather as somewhere between halfway and the bridge.)