Forum Activity for @robert-owens

Thanks Ken. Well, I don't know if that's more than I want to know, but it's more than I knew I needed to know! So, I've measured the vibrating string length of my dulcimer, and it looks like just a little over 28" (maybe 28-1/16"?). Given that, would you have any advice as to what tuning I might want to use? I'm not sure how to decide that, but would it relate in any way to my voice range (assuming that I sometimes might want to sing along with my playing)? If so, I have a fairly low range (not sure how to classify it...have never had formal voice training, etc.)...for example, I often sing the bass line in choral songs, and I often end up tuning my guitar down a full step to be able to comfortably sing certain songs (if I don't want to otherwise change keys, etc.)...does that help in any way?

As for the nut & bridge, I agree with you that the Wilcutt example definitely has metal for those two parts, with notches for the strings cut into them, etc. The nut on mine is somewhat worn and chipped, but it is definitely some kind of wood, and it looks very similar to the rest of the wood on the dulcimer (and it also has notches cut into it). (And as I think I said previously, the bridge is missing, so I'm not sure what it was made of.) I think I should be able to fashion some kind of wooden replacements out of the various varieties of hardwood scraps that I have in my shop.

As for moving to friction tuning pegs, I have found some different versions that might work, both on the International Violin Co. website, and on Amazon. I will keep looking around for options before ordering any. And I still might try and make them myself, since I would ideally like to replicate the shape of the knobs on the originals.

Thanks again!

Thanks Nate. I have various hardwoods as well as bone blanks for guitar saddles & nuts that I could maybe use. I also have the reamers, which I use for installing guitar tuners. Will do some online searching for the pegs themselves. 

Thanks again!

Well, in discussing the tuning pegs I forgot all about your other questions. It does look like the nut is made of metal. Perhaps it is a piece of sheet metal (steel)? In the Willicut photo the bridge looks like brass. As far as strings go we need to know the vibrating string length to calculate what you would use. Measure from the inside edge of the to where the strings touch the bridge. You can calculate string size by using the Strothers string calculator. You can find it here . You will also need to know what notes you will use for each string. When Dixon was making dulcimers the accepted standard was C - G - G. Today the standard is D - A - d although many people still play D - A - A (an octave higher than the old standard). Sometimes these tunings are referred to as 1 - 5 -5 and 1 -5 -8 tunings or Ionian and Mixolydian. The former tuning has a scale beginning on the 3rd fret while the latter has the scale starting on the open string. That may be more than you want to know at this point.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

On one hand, if you particularly wanted to install a "zero fret" made of metal that is an option. Common materials for dulcimer nut and bridge are very hard woods, bone, and plastic.

For the pegs, others might be able to provide insight,  but pegs of standard sizes are super cheap and "peg hole reamers" as well as "peg shavers" might be useful tools to use

Mike, I have one of the Hall brand pyrex glass noters that Amazon used to sell. Here is the listing explaining that it is no longer available: Hall dulcimer noter .  That is the exact model I have.  It was given to me when I bought my first dulcimer about 14 or 15 years ago.

It is well made and very pretty.  It produces a very bright tone and slides around like butter on a hot skillet, although my noter skills are pretty poor, so I can't do a good demo. I have trouble avoiding the fret wire.

I never use it.  If you pay for shipping plus make a $10 donation to FOTMD, it is yours.  Send me a personal message if you're interested.  I would package it up and get some estimates on shipping before you have to commit.

Hey fellas. End of the day update here...

I appreciate all of you who have weighed in to help me solve this puzzle.

So, I was able to remove the tuners, by heating up the posts with a soldering iron enough to soften the glue holding the wooden knobs to the shafts, so the knobs could be removed, and then the tuning machines removed from the box. Upon inspection (and touching with the iron), that is definitely lines of solder down the plate of each tuning machine. As I've reflected on it, although I'm new to dulcimers, I find it hard to imagine that this was the original tuner installation...I bet John is right that this was a re-do by some owner of it before it came to our family (although I had thought we were the original owners). I found another Arthur Dixon dulcimer that was sold by Wilcutt Guitars in Lexington, which clearly has the traditional friction tuning pegs (see attached photo)...BTW, this one is numbered 87, whereas mine is 42), and the knob ends on the pegs are identical to the ones on my dulcimer. I can't imagine that mine is the way Mr. Dixon installed tuners on his earlier builds, and then he went back to the traditional friction pegs later. I'm thinking that some previous owner wanted to put geared tuners into it, so they cut off the knobs of the pegs, and mounted them onto the shaft of these geared tuners. And in answer to some of your comments, it appears that the gears were facing down, and the metal rods were soldered to the top side of the plates (and there were no screws used, I guess because there was no way to use screws in the plates themselves). Also, in answer to John's question, yes, the holes do go through to the other side of the tuner box, just like in the Wilcutt example (which also seems to confirm that mine was not the original tuner configuration, because the geared tuners wouldn't have required the holes on the other side of the box). 

All that being said, I think I would like to restore it look more like the one sold by Wilcutt, with the traditional friction tuning pegs. Do you all have a source for such pegs? (I could possibly just make them myself, but may want to buy them.) And thanks, John, for your suggested solution...I may go that route if the traditional tuners don't work out.

Finally, any answers to my other two questions below, about strings and materials for the nut & bridge? Its pretty clear from the Wilcutt example that the nut & bridge are metal, like fret wire...although on my dulcimer, the slots are wider and deeper than typical fret slots, and the nut appears to be a thin slice of wood of some type (the bridge is missing).

Thanks again for any and all continued help!

 screenshot of headstock of another AD dulcimer (#87).jpg - 38KB

Mike, are you asking about a solid glass rod or a cylinder that you put your finger in like you would use for playing slide guitar? If it is the former, do a search for glass stirring rods.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

If nobody has one, or is not interested in selling, the big question is: does anyone still make them? Amazon has some "no longer available" items but that's all I can find on the web. Any help hugely appreciated!

I decided to look at some Dixon dulcimers. Here are links to two photos of Dixon dulcimers:

https://heritagedulcimers.wordpress.com/2021/06/05/arthur-dixon-1897-1978/

https://willcuttguitars.com/products/arthur-dixon-dulcimer-used

Neither dulcimer has tuning machines. The are wood pegs. Could it be that someone else decided to add the geared tuners?

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

It reminds me of the saying "If you do what you know then you'll know what youre doing."

Perhaps this concept was more familiar to the person who installed these tuners so its what they opted for. More than once ive seen people fix instruments in strange ways because it was their first instinct.

I cant imagine what exactly was going through their mind, but it would make sense to me if someone was "winging it."

Thanks, Nate. I see that I didn't pay attention to that in the original post. It seems like an awful lot of work compared to installing them the conventional way. 

Ken 

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Thank you, I appreciate it John!

With that said, I have to admit Ive seen a ton of folks use baking pans for resonators on other instruments and i just started slapping them on dulcimers. Id like to think ive seen a lot of string instruments, but using solder instead of screws is definitely a first for me

Ken if i am understanding correctly, there are no screws. After the machine tuners were placed in the peg box, a metal rod was installed spanning from the scroll to the bridge on both sides of the actual tuning cylinder, and the mounting plate ot the tuners were then soldered to the rods.

I might be misunderstanding, the whole thing is just such a head scratcher to me

Soldering tuners into a metal cage gives new meaning to the phrase "locking tuners" LOL

Just doing some quick "shop think'n"  A thin strip of wood or metal/brass/copper as a cover, mounted flush with the peg box might give it a nice "it was built that way" look? Would help stabilize the tuners in the slot, and cover any mounting screws?

 WIN_20250414_15_22_20_Pro.jpg - 52KB

I think I understand the tuning machines now. It appears that they were placed inside the peg head with the gears on the bottom. The shaft that holds the knob went through the wall of the peg head to the outside. I've never seen that arrangement before. Were the mounting plates of the tuners screwed to the bottom of opening in the peg head?  When I use open gear tuners like that I usually buy them from Folkcraft in Woodburn, IN. McSpadden (The Dulcimer Shoppe) in Arkansas also sells them. You can buy cheaper versions from places like C.B.Gitty or do a search on Amazon.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Bizarre is using bunt pans.....Love yer stuff Nate!

Seriously tho....Looking at the peg head, is it perhaps probable that it started with simple pegs, and this was an attempt to put in machine tuners that "looked" original?  Robert, give a look and see if the peg hole continues on the other side.....

Josephus book of antiquities page 438 b ...under pre Viking design concepts.........

Wow thats the most bizarre system for anchoring tuning pegs that ive ever seen. Is this a method others have seen before?

Thanks again for your all's input.

That makes sense about the sound posts. I think I'll just try and put them back the way they were.

And I may try to restore the tuners, if I can get them out without destroying them. I did take out the one that's missing its knob, and they appear to be just a square plate, with the usual posts & gears, similar to a guitar tuner (see attached photos). And upon closer inspection, it looks like the metal rods that ran the length of the box on each side were soldered to tops of the plates of each tuner (see photos), and the rods stuck into the wood on each end of the box. Seems like a pretty crude (but creative!) way of mounting tuners! Anyway, if I can't make these work, I may try to find some tuners that are similar, and figure out some way to mount them in the tuner box securely.

• If so, do either of you have a source to suggest for dulcimer tuning machines (either new or used/vintage)?

Two more questions...

• Any advice on what to use to replace the bridge & nut (both of which are pretty worn or broken)? I'm assuming I could make my own out of the materials I have...the mounting slots are pretty thin, about 0.050" (as you'll see if you zoom in one of those initial photos)...don't know if that's unusual or not.
• And finally, any advice on what type of strings to use, and any best sources for those?

Thanks again!

 IMG_2217.jpg - 144KB

Both James Edward Thomas and Charles N. Prichard used sound posts in their dulcimers. Thomas installed two post; one around the third fret and the other around the tenth fret. Prichard used one which was a 3/8 inch square at the center of the length of his dulcimers. Why Dixon used four is a mystery.

I'm still trying to figure out what all that stuff is in both peg heads.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

The long thin strips across the bottom helps keep the bottom from splitting, they also provide a thicker area of mounting for the top support posts. Effectively they tie the top and bottom together, transmitting the vibration of the top to the rest of the instrument. They also keep the top and bottom from flexing too much under the tension of the strings and the players pressing down on them. Not unlike the sound post in a violin or cello. Do you "need" all of them, or any of them......maybe. Can they be more of a delicate design instead of "barn beam" style? ? Perhaps you would be fine with just the one near the bridge end?

I know the positioning of the "one little" sound post in a violin/cello can make a HUGE difference in the tone...

As for your ancient viking style tuners......Please let us see how the battle goes......

Thank you John & Ken for your quick responses and great advice! I think I have the tools and wood that I'll need to repair it and reinforce it, etc. I guess my main challenge will be repairing/replacing the tuners, and then I have a question about the bracing.

As for the tuners, I've seen some photos of Arthur Dixon dulcimers that have simple friction tuners, but these are geared (see additional photo attached), even though they have knobs made of wood and seem to be handmade. Are there tuner sets available that would be a close replication of these? Maybe I can salvage the two remaining knobs, and carve the third one needed, and use them with some new machines? But actually, the existing tuners are working pretty well as is, in terms of turning pretty freely (even before any cleaning/lubricating), so maybe I can salvage them, and just make a new knob to replace the missing one. Also, that rod that is sticking out seems to have been what was holding the tuning machines down in the box (with apparently another rod on the other side (which is now missing). Maybe I could figure out a better way to securing these original tuners into the box. Any ideas about that?

Then, to Ken's question about the "supports" that appear to have been installed between the top & back braces...is that a common part of mountain dulcimer construction? I can see how they could offer some more rigidity, etc., but I'm not sure how necessary they are, since the fretboard makes such a stiff "brace" holding everything together, right? I could certainly replace them, if that makes sense (one is missing, which I would have to replace).

Any other thoughts/advice/referrals?

Thanks much!

 IMG_2215.jpg - 281KB

Wow....That peg box looks like it came up from the ocean floor in an old viking ship....

I think [if it was my project] I'd start by cleaning out those broken pegs and other "stuff" in that box, cutting the strings away first. It almost looks as if the string tension was high enough to snap the pegs {rotten?} off without spitting the box? if it is still sound, clean and replace pegs with re claimed  violin pegs, self carved or for "function" , machine tuners...YOUR preference.

The rib crack[s] can be a little tricky, if you only want function, a thin strip of opposing/angled grained wood clamped internally should do the trick. The broken curve on the upper bout is the most challenging, as you need to get it back to the original curve, and reinforce it so it doesn't do it again. Either make a solid piece clamping form using the "good" side as a template, or I have seen using plaster of paris to make a mold of it, making a form perhaps 3-4 inches thick to give something to clamp to.

From what I can see, your top and bottom seem to be intact. Looks like all of it was put together with hide glue, hot water and a 3M pad should clean old glue residue fairly well. Once the old glue is cleaned off of the wood, MY preference is Titebond II, perhaps keeping these repairs from being needed in the next 60+ years...?

 Don't know what your "shop" has for tools and clamps and such. Shoot me a message and I can send you some thin stock for cleats and reinforcement....

Best of luck on your upcoming battle.....

That looks like an interesting project. From your photos it looks like you have most of or all of the pieces you need. Since you have experience, what do you specifically need to know about this dulcimer. The cracks look like they can be repaired with the usual methods; super glue, clamps, and cleats. I've never seen a Dixon dulcimer. The pile of wood pieces appear to be braces for the top which should match up to the light spaces on the underside of the top. There are four light spaces on the bottom which indicated to me that there were supports under the top stretching from the underside of the top to the bottom plate. It looks like these were glued between the bottom and the braces. It would be fun to look inside an intact Dixon dulcimer to see if this is the case. Look in that pile of wood and see if there are four sticks that would work for this. It looks like you are missing on tuning peg. I have no idea what substance is filling the peg head. Please ask specific questions about anything that puzzles you. What other parts do you think you are missing?

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

I have a 1962 Arthur Dixon mountain dulcimer, from Whitesburg, KY, that has been in my family since it was built. It has a fair amount of cracks and other damage, and am hoping to restore it to playing condition. Although I've restored guitars and other stringed instruments, this is my first attempt at restoring a mountain dulcimer, so I need some advice, and possibly some parts. I will attach some photos here. Anybody out there who could help? Thanks!

 IMG_2200.jpeg - 154KB

(The Wayback Machine) 

Now we are really showing our age. Rocky and Bullwinkle (Really Rock) Smile 

I'm sorry to hear of Don Neuhauser's passing. We need to be training new talent as we get long in the tooth!

Actually there is a way to find the time information appears, and each time it changes. Go the the Internet Archive (aka The Wayback Machine), https://archive.org/, and enter the web address you're interested in. You will find all the times the Archive has captured an image of that web page.

@lilley-pad Don passed away a few years back.  

Hello everybody, does anyone know if Don Neuhauser is still making instruments? His Dulci-Bro Resonator.

Going by the pictures I've seen on the internet looks like he makes a pretty good quality instrument. The bad thing about the internet is there's no real time stamp so you don't know if the information that is out there is really old or new 

Yes, I remember that as well, Robin. Good to be reminded!

While I'm thinking about it, John Henry was, to my knowledge, our elder participant in IADD.  And he met Jean Ritchie many years ago on one of her trips to the UK.  Also, Val Hughes noted some time ago that it was Jean Ritchie who introduced the mountain dulcimer to Ireland.  Val contributed audio recordings here at FOTMD for IADD.  

Thank you @nate for these clarifications. I observed the same phenomenon on my spectrograms, indeed. Let's not forget that if we make a string vibrate, the sounds perceived are those produced by the entire instrument, that is to say, air and wood. By comparing different dulcimers built in different woods, I noted a whole variety of responses, for the same frequency, depending on the wood used. These variations affected both the number of overtones perceived, their amplitudes at attack and decay, and their sustain.

Thank you for taking the time to articulate your results dulcidom! I have been playing around with these ideas quite a bit. I have a one string dulcimer that i have tuned to exactly 100 Hz and a weighted pendulum that i have been moving down the length of the string and then observing the results in a spectrum analysis software. One observation is that on an instrument like a dulcimer, the overtones that sustain are not always the overtones with the sharpest attack. If one were to look at peak amplitude of frequencies immediately after the "attack" i have found them to be different from the ones that sustain the longest. 

I ran into a problem with a wound bass string once. There was a bit of a buzz which I tracked down to a broken winding. See the attached photo.

I identified the problem when I ran my finger up and down the string. It was visible to my naked eye once I knew where to look.

A simple string change fixed it.

 Damaged Winding-labeled.jpg - 496KB

I have found that the first strings to 'go dead' and sound crappy are usually the wound strings.
The easiest course of action here (pun intended) is to simply put on a new string and see if that solves it. I know that having extra strings and putting on a new string can be kind of a big thing to new players, but it's pretty routine for experienced players of stringed instruments. (not saying I do it all that often... i don't ) 
Chances are a new bass string will sound nicer for you no matter what the issue is right now. Think of changing the string as similar to giving yourself a new toothbrush- you don't necessarily 'have to', but it's not expensive to do and may give you good results.

P.S. do you know what gauge strings should go on your dulcimer according to its scale length from nut to bridge, and the tuning you usually play in? And do you have extra strings?

Specifically with the language of tinny, My first guess would be that the strings are not seated correctly in either their slots at the bridge, or their slots at the nut.

Hi @mdwannabe.  First, strings get stiff and stale just from exposure to air.  They also get grimy from being played, but strings age even if they are not played at all.  And wound strings age much faster than do plain steel strings.  So you might consider just changing your string.  Try that before anything else.

I am not sure what exactly you mean by "tinny."  Is there perhaps a buzz?  If you fret the string, does the "tinny" sound remain?  Try fretting at each fret and see if sound gets better.  If it is equally tinny up and down the fretboard, perhaps it is not sitting cleanly in the nut or bridge and a small adjustment might be necessary.

I'm sure one of the builders here at FOTMD will have better ideas than I do.

I have a June Apple Dulcimer that played really well when I got it but I took it out again and the bass string has a horrible tinny sound when it is played. I don’t think it has been played enough to need new strings.