Forum Activity for @ken-hulme

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Steve, welcome!   We look forward to insights from everyone.  As you mention, the dulcimer creates its sound differently than the guitar. 

Changing out a hardwood top for a softwood one seems like it would work, but doesn't really since there is so little top to vibrate.   What works much better, IMHO, is to completely free the back to vibrate -- hence the "false bottom" of the Galax style instruments mentioned below.   

A lot of guitar builders come to the dulcimer and try to apply guitar style bracing on the top and back.  Which does nothing, of course, except make those surfaces even more stiff and less sound producing!  With dulcimers, fewer braces are generally better.  That big brace on top can be massively hollowed, and arched to cut down on overall mass, but for conventional "on the lap" play it needs to be a minimum of 1/2" deep for Chord-Melody style play.  We Traditional players want a fretboard closer to 1" high so there is room for fingers to clear, but also like narrower fretboards since we are fretting only one string.

It's not sacrilege to consider moving at least the bridge inboard, and some builders bring it quite far in.  The nut is harder to move inward unless you restrict construction to flat guitar style tuning heads.  If there is "too much" dulcimer beyond the nut and bridge, balancing the instrument on your lap can become an issue.  

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Some thoughts, and some caveats. I come at this as a guitar maker. I’m just in the process of putting a tung  oil finish on my first dulcimer.

Having established that, I think that appreciably changing the volume of a dulcimer would be very difficult.

A guitar’s volume is a function of its responsiveness. A small guitar can be every bit as loud as a large one. Responsiveness is determined by stiffness and density of the top, and the stiffness of the bracing.

Stiffness and density? That’s why guitar makers use softwoods like sitka spruce and red cedar. The greatest stiffness with the least weight.

So I’d suggest that the first thing you do is sub out the traditional North American hardwood top for a good, stiff softwood.

But you still have this monstrously large brace running the length of the instrument. The fretboard. And make no mistake. It is a brace. Can the depth be lessened? A lot? I don’t know, I’m still learning about how the instrument works.

But one thing that immediately strikes me. Both the nut and the bridge are over the respective end blocks. They’d do a much better job of activating the top if they were actually on the top, as opposed to being supported by a couple of hunks of hardwood. Would it be sacrilege to move both of them a few mm closer to one another?

Anyway, those are just a few thoughts, and worth exactly what you paid for them :-). Happy to listen to any arguments, cause as I said, I’m new at this.

Steve

denvirguitars.com

film from Hindman Settlement School & the Artisan Center

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

updated by @robin-thompson: 07/10/20 06:30:37PM

Aeolus dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thank you very much @dulcimermaid , I will have a go at that! :)

Aeolus dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

If you haven’t found Dale yet, try contacting the Southern California Dulcimer Heritage Society or the Harvest Festival of Dulcimers The current president is a student of Cyntia’s and they may have current contact info. Cyntia founded the group and was the president for years. Good luck!

Does anyone know anything about Jim Hamilton Dulcijos?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I've heard very good things about Mike Clemmer's banjammer , but the Dulcijo looks pretty nice, too.

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Like KenH said, elliptical, deep body and false bottom. (Built in possum board) I also put feet on the bottom of my false bottoms! I may look into one of these... just have to figure out what to call it?
updated by @dan: 07/09/20 03:19:19PM

Does anyone know anything about Jim Hamilton Dulcijos?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I am interested in getting a dulcimer-banjo hybrid. I have found a Jim Hamilton Dulcijo and wondered if anyone knew anything about the builder or his dulcijos? 

OR does anyone have a dulcimer-banjo and have a recommendation for a brand/builder?

Thanks!!

Elizabeth

Grant Olson Website

Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

Grant, nice website. You are quite the player.

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Nate -- Dan is referring to the more or less traditional Galax shape and construction -- a deep-bodied elliptical (not teardrop) shaped body with a double bottom.  That sort of shape needs no special tools or anything to make the elliptical sides.  

Many builders today do not use any bracing.  The top and bottom are simply glued to the edges of the sides without kerfing even; especially with teardrop and elliptical designs.  

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Nate, I just wanted to increase the size of everything on that dulcimore by 3 times, to see what would happen.  I guess some tweaking is still in order?  The string material, for one thing.  Right now it's music wire, but maybe weed-whipper line might work better.

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hello John. 'Uncle Eddie' is quite a sight to behold. Very cool! I am curious to know if in hindsight you feel some alterations could have produced more loudness for its size, since you say it is not particularly loud for it's size.

Also, I have been reducing my bracings more and more in favor of loudness and I think I have reached a point where I am sacrificing the longevity of my builds by making the bracing so minimal. Ditto for wood thickness. 
This leaves me to wonder which matters more for volume of sound; having a sturdy build with heavy gauge strings, or a very lightweight build with lighter strings so as to not stress it?

Would love some input 

Thanks,
Nate
updated by @nate: 07/07/20 04:32:09PM

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hello Dan. Does 'galax' mean a dulcimer with a 'false bottom' or 'possum board?' Or is it the wide oblong shape that denotes a galax? I do not have access to any means to curve wood into the shape of traditional dulcimers such as a lozenge dulcimer, however if you are referring to the false bottom, I have been adding these with noticeable benefit!
Thanks, 
Nate

Grant Olson Website

Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

It's working great for me as well now!

Grant Olson Website

Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

Very nice website, Grant!  You are such a musically talented young man. 

Grant Olson Website

Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

I was able to check out the site no problem.  Here is the link: https://www.grantolsondulcimer.com/ .

Grant Olson Website

Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

was not able to access the site. Screen looked like image attached. Hope I can check it out soon!

<Edit: Nate, I doubled-checked the link in Grant's post- it's working fine and so is Dusty's link- strumelia>

updated by @nate: 07/07/20 09:54:03AM

Unknown maker

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

But what a cool instrument!. I'll bet it has an interesting sound.

Grant Olson Website

Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

Hello everyone! I wanted to let you know about new resources I've made. -my website:

www.grantolsondulcimer.com

I've got on there some more information about my musical background and info and pictures on some of the dulcimers I've built. <>

I hope those who are interested find this helpful!

Grant

Unknown maker

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Dan is right-- there are many dulcimers that were made by novices that were never signed, for whatever reason.  This looks to be one of them.

Unknown maker

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I saw that piece and thought it was quite interesting. (Still do!) There are a lot of pieces out there that were made one off. If the maker didn't sign it, we may never know?

updated by @dan: 07/05/20 07:49:48PM

Unknown maker

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I've looked all over and cannot determine who made this dulcimer. I got it through an online auction. The dulcimer was in Roanoke va.

Bass String Buzz @ 1st & 2nd Fret

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Bass String Buzz @ 1st & 2nd Fret

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Great News! My dulcimer is really fixed. I found someone in North Georgia who actually cleaned up several frets, had to level one fret and built up the bridge under the bass string. Used a wood that matched perfectly. I did write to McSpadden since I had shipped the dulcimer once to them. They were willing to pay for the repair since I made the effort to ship it to them first under warranty. This restores my faith in McSpadden. Just wanted to let everyone know the update. 

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I like the challenge of playing slowly-- it can be hard to keep a tune slow and melodic.  Great exercise for me!  @ariane's Shenandoah project is just the right kind of challenge for this old girl.  

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Nate,

Many things impact loudness, size of the sound box, thickness of the soundboard, weight of the strings, size of the soundhole and how hard the player hits the strings.

Matt

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I'm going to suggest a large Galax with heavy strings drawn up tighter than a banjo.......like a Mahhee in steroids?

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The general rule of thumb for loudness and 'baritone-ness' is that the larger the volume of the soundbox (not just width or length, but volume), the louder the overall sound... especially when accompanied by more than 4 or 5 square inches of sound hole.  

Size (square inches) of sound hole is important to creating volume.  There's a complex mathematical solution called the Helmholts Equation (Wikipedia has a good write up on the subject).  As a dulcimer gets bigger it needs more soundhole to let out the sound, and it's not a linear progression.  John's Uncle Eddie has soundholes that are scaled up from the originals, but it needs maybe almost twice as much area of soundhole to "let it all out".  If you are truly interested in maximizing performance, I think you'll want to find someone who can help you solve the Helmholtz equation specifically for the volume of the proposed body. 

Mass of the body isn't as important as you might think. 

Look at the traditional Tennessee Music Box -- roughly 4" deep, 14" wide and 26'-28" long, with planks (sides/top/bottom/back) averaging about 3/8" thick!   Usually on feet to allow the back to vibrate as well, and a solid (seldom hollowed) 2x2 freboard.   

Without a lot of "messing about", the simplest solution to a LOUD dulcimer is, IMHO,  to build something about the same dimensions as the Tennessee Music Box I described above.  Look at pictures of original TMBs to get an idea of how many soundholes/how much area of hole you'll need for something that size.  Then here's my suggestion.  Make twice as many soundholes as an original TMB of the same dimensions.  Then start blocking off holes two at a time, and see the effect on the sound. 

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Nate, look at a mariachi guitarra quintet.  They have all sizes of guitar soundboards.  The largest is pretty BIG.

But then, a dulcimer is not a guitar.  "Uncle Eddie", the world's largest (and longest) dulcimer is not particularly loud for its size and soundbox volume.  Usually taller sides equal more bass response, and maybe more loudness too.  I think overall loudness is derived from several factors working together, such as wood thickness, bracing, design, string gauges and tension, etc.

Size of Soundbox and Loudness

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hello all, I was wondering how much loudness is affected by the size of the soundbox. I am trying to make an extremely loud dulcimer that doesn't rely on any metal cones, pickups, or microphones, and have been testing lots of concepts to try to get the most efficiency I can, but my understanding of the physics of acoustics is very limited. I assumed bigger means louder, but i would also imagine that the more wood which has to vibrate, the more energy is needed to get the whole box vibrating before it can project any sound. So it would make sense to me if a small box lets the energy be more concentrated and therefore agitate the air more, but it would also make sense to me that a bigger box is more wood moving more air and therefore more loudness. I really am out of my depth so I'd love some input. 
1: Is taller louder?
2: Is a larger soundboard louder?
3: Is there a size that is accepted to be loudest?

Also, I have reduced as much extra mass as I can off my last build with the most minimal bracing necessary to not warp or flex, a false bottom, an almost entirely hollow fingerboard, and a saddle that sits directly on the soundboard. Pretty dang loud but I want to leave no stone unturned so I am very open to more ideas for loudness.

Thanks!

updated by @nate: 06/30/20 03:32:07PM

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

<crawling back under my rock now... see you when Covid is a memory...>

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

When I don't have an answer I ask myself, "What would Groucho say?"

Not only for recordings like this, but for any kind of group play we don't have the luxury of varying tempo for expressiveness. Unless you have a conductor or other clear leader, you just have to find a tempo and stick with it. I am always humbled when I practice with a metronome.  It is one thing to vary tempo on purpose, but too often I vary uknowingly, speeding up over easy sections and slower down over the harder ones. That's something I'd like to eliminate.  I wasn't joking when I mentioned the frustration that comes with a metronome. I can only take it in small doses.

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

"like a kidney stone...." ...that's a gem!  I'll definitely be using that one.

Ken, I guess it'll be a good growth exercise in controlling your playing then. I know it's true for me that sometimes simpler things can be hard when I'm used to doing stuff my own way (the way I'd prefer).
It's like someone who has lived alone for decades has difficulties adjusting to living with someone else. I had an older girlfriend who was engaged for two years to the nicest guy, they felt so lucky to have found each other, ...but they finally broke up because they both couldn't deal with moving in together and just visiting wasn't what they really wanted... they were each 'married to their own houses' full of their treasured stuff and could not deal with making the changes.

I too can vouch that you've been saying 40 years for about ten years now. No offense intended Ken, but since you mention it on average once every day in one post or another, that means we've all been reminded of your 40 years of playing approximately 3,650 times now. We've definitely gotten the memo!     

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Yes, "normally" I also prefer when playing alone to paraphrase a tune and to have a more "flexible" tempo  - but in such a kind of project I think it is "necessary" to play to an agreed tempo so that I can put the measures of different musicians in a row and the tune still will have its flow.

If one has "difficulties" in taking over the tempo I still have the possibility to place his/her measures more to the end of the tune - that will be no problem

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Dusty -- back then -- 10 years ago -- I was saying I'd been playing 30 years.  Now, 10 years later, I'm saying 40 years...

2020 -1975 = 45 years    "Time flies when you're having fun; fruit flies like bananas." -- Groucho Marx

I play a number of songs very slow --  Londonderry Air, Danny Boy, Amazing Grace, and others.  It's the regular tempo that I'm struggling with -- rather than playing "expressively" to the rhythm of the words, I guess. 

"Like a kidney stone, this too shall pass."  -- Unk Nown

updated by @ken-hulme: 06/30/20 07:03:53AM

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Ken--Pretend you're playing it to a baby you want to fall asleep.  Playing a song slowly is sometimes harder than playing it fast....kind of like riding a bike.

I'm working--and enjoying--Skye Boat Song

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@Ken-Hulme, whenever there is too little frustration in my life, I practice with a metronome.  Problem solved.

By the way, I first discovered the dulcimer about ten years ago and joined ED and FOTM around then, too. You were saying back then that you'd been playing the dulcimer for 40 years.  Maybe the math needs to be updated.    I'm not saying  . . . I'm just saying.

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Speed issues with Ariane's Shenandoah Summer Project.  I've spent 40 years playing to the rhythm of the words, and I decided to get involved with her group play project for the challenge.  But 60 beats per minute seems glacial!   Have I mentioned how much I hate those little blue city guys -- metro-gnomes? 

updated by @ken-hulme: 06/29/20 10:33:36PM

What Are You Working On?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Tryin' to smooth out ashokan farewell, Barlow Knife, and currently arranging/learning Cold Frosty Morning

Hearts Of The Dulcimer Podcast In Its 5th Year

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hi Dusty! I agree ... this is a silver lining with this horrible, horrible situation. I'm glad you're enjoying the podcast. We've been busy working on several more episodes ... stay tuned! Hope all is well with you and yours.