Forum Activity for @granto

granto
@granto
08/30/24 10:07:47AM
8 posts

Reasons NOT To Get a Chromatic


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Been a bit since this thread was active but I enjoyed reading and thinking about it.

I think it's worth pointing out this discussion is really just about names. Whether some instrument is a "dulcimer" or not simply depends on how we define "dulcimer". Of course we will disagree on that. Should "dulcimer" be used in the strictest sense, or allowed to be used more broadly, referring to any instrument that had it's beginnings at least partially with the dulcimer? There cannot be agreement on this question because it is a matter of opinion. 

Honestly I don't think it matters. The purpose of words and names is to communicate. As long as there is no confusion of communication then the names serve their purpose. If I say "chromatic dulcimer" and everyone knows exactly what I'm referring to, that is sufficient. Of course we could discuss whether to use the term "dulcimer" or not. However, alluding to Shakespeare, what we call the instrument doesn't change what it is, its value, or its place in the musical world. Every instrument in the dulcimer world has it's strengths and weaknesses. Furthermore, everyone sees the relationships between different varieties of dulcimers differently because they all have different experiences. 

I totally agree with OverDrive; every instrument you play affects how you play other instruments. NateBuildsToys points out how he played the diatonic dulcimer first and later played the chromatic dulcimer, which then affected his view of the diatonic dulcimer. 

NateBuildsToys:
OverDrive:

Whenever I take up a new instrument, it gives me a fresh perspective on the other instruments I play. 

 

It's funny that you mention this. My experience with chromatic dulcimer is that it enhances my perspective of diatonic dulcimer. The cultural place of chromatic and diatonic dulcimers might be different, but to me, as a self taught dulcimer player, chromatic dulcimer provides me with useful contextual information that I can apply to diatonic. Specifically, hearing the ways that the same chords that I play in diatonic can fit into other keys helps me to think of them with a more open mind. 
Nate

 

However, Dusty Turtle played chromatic instruments first, and later played the diatonic dulcimer. Because of this, his experience learning the diatonic dulcimer was very different than it is for others. 

Dusty Turtle:

I think of diatonic and chromatic dulcimers as two roads that lead to different kinds of attractions along the way. One will mainly take you to traditional music, both modal and pentatonic, and the other leads you to pop, blues, and jazz.  Both can cross over a little bit, but they have different emphases.

Of course, I mainly play a dulcimer with 6+ and 1+ frets, so I've chosen a kind of middle path.  I play mostly diatonic music but can occasionally add blue notes or switch keys in ways that would be much more difficult on a truly diatonic instrument.

I would like to caution us all not to assume generalizations hold for everyone.  I played the guitar, mandolin, and ukulele before discovering the dulcimer, and the diatonic fretboard did not make the instrument easier to learn.  On the contrary, the fact that I could not play so many of the songs in my head was very frustrating. It took about 2 years of playing everyday for me to get a sense of what melodies could be found on the diatonic fretboard and what couldn't.  (It may be true that there are no wrong notes on the dulcimer, but that doesn't mean that all the right ones are there!) 

And chording on the diatonic fretboard is more complex.  On a chromatic fretboard, a chord shape will be the same type of chord as you move up and down the fretboard, but on a diatonic dulcimer, that chord shape changes between major and minor.  That fact significantly slows down the development of dulcimer players who wish to play chords.

 

For me personally, I learned the diatonic dulcimer as my first instrument. My understanding of the diatonic fretboard has shaped my entire understanding of music theory and how I play any musical instrument. I see the keys on the piano in terms of numbers from a dulcimer fretboard. When playing even a six or seven string instrument, whether guitar-like, zither-like or otherwise, I understand the tuning in terms of groups of three strings I can recognize as dulcimer tunings such as DAD, DAA, or DGD. For me, the diatonic dulcimer is absolutely fundamental to music, so when I play a chromatic dulcimer, I instinctively think of it as an extension of the dulcimer. Yet I know not everyone thinks this way. The cool thing is, that means I and other people have very different musical ideas, and we can learn from each other. 

Whether you want to play a chromatic dulcimer or not is totally up to you. People will be attracted to different instruments (including types of dulcimers) for a variety of reasons, whether natural playing style, preferred sound, desired musical genere, etc. I think the important thing is that we all make music. The value of us all making music together is we get to see everyone's unique approach and individual ideas, and learn from each other. I want to value and preserve the traditions of past generations, and explore new ideas at the same time. There are things I can do with a chromatic that I can't with a diatonic, and vice versa. Both have an important place. I love the stuff I do on the chromatic dulcimer, because it's just plain fun! I also love playing the diatonic dulcimer. Then again, I can't even play noter style, but I love that sound and am so thankful for people who play it well. In both cases, we're all making music, we just don't do it in the same way or with the exact same instrument. The dulcimer community will be the healthiest when we all value the music everyone makes, whether it's like our own or not. 

Strumelia
@strumelia
08/30/24 08:42:04AM
2,356 posts

History of mountain dulcimer


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Not sure exactly what time period we are talking here- during or before before Jean's time (b.1922)?  Remember that the earliest mtn dulcimer so far that has been accurately dated was from the 1830s- actual mtn dulcimers may not even have been 'invented' before 1800.
I've always been doubtful about the conjecture that mountain dulcimers were commonly played for social dances or in church. I've never read any verified references of it, and it seems unlikely to me. On the other hand, many churches and most grange halls had a piano. And guitars, fiddles, and (to a lesser extent) banjos... were pretty widespread among the communities.

Nate
@nate
08/30/24 03:14:36AM
408 posts

History of mountain dulcimer


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Wally Venable:

He proposes that the dulcimer was commonly used for dances and church services. I have seen no evidence that dulcimers from our area were ever used in dances or church. 

 
I know only a little about dulcimer history, and even less about the history of southern churches, but with smaller churches it makes a lot of sense to me that musicians would be invited to play small intimate performances in front of their congregation. Most church people that I've met love musicians bringing their instruments and performing a piece of worship music, since church is fundamentally about community. I guess i had assumed that any instruments which weren't considered "of the devil" would end up getting played in churches. I really hope it wasn't that different in 'puritanical' times in Appalachia...
updated by @nate: 08/30/24 06:31:24AM
John C. Knopf
@john-c-knopf
08/29/24 03:51:12PM
435 posts

History of mountain dulcimer


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Yes, old dulcimers were quiet instruments, almost always played in the home.  No big concerts back then.  They were just meant to accompany singing, like Jean Ritchie demonstrated. 

Wally Venable
@wally-venable
08/29/24 10:23:55AM
115 posts

History of mountain dulcimer


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I watched Robin Clark's video. He does a great job of covering dulcimer types and construction, and he plays with great skill.

On the other hand, I don't think he really understands the place(s) of the dulcimer within Appalachian culture. He proposes that the dulcimer was commonly used for dances and church services. I have seen no evidence that dulcimers from our area were ever used in dances or church. 

Both from reading Jean Ritchie's Singing Family of the Cumberlands book (Eastern Kentucky) and from studying local sources (North Central West Virginia) I am aware that in many communities dancing to instrumental music was considered sinful. This was particularly true among rural Methodist and Baptist congregations. In those communities "children" of all ages attended PLAYS or PLAY-PARTIES where dance-like activities took place while the participants SANG the music. 

There are many scholarly and semi-scholarly books which discuss play-parties in detail. In many cases the tunes and dance figures were nearly identical to fiddle tunes and square or line dances. 

Dulcimers were not more affordable than fiddles and banjos. Both box and gourd homemade fiddles and banjos were used by others (Presbyterians and Anglicans ??) within the same areas for dancing.

As to dulcimer playing in church, I'd guess that it occurred on occasions, but it was unnecessary. The Ritchies, and probably most other Methodists and Baptists, learned highly structured unaccompanied singing in shape-note schools and from the Sacred Harp schools. It is quite possible that many of the small churches had foot-pumped organs, there was one in the Ritchie home. 

If anyone has primary source material describing dulcimer playing at dances or in church, I'd like to see it.

Robin Thompson
@robin-thompson
08/28/24 10:12:27AM
1,512 posts

Play Music On The Porch Day 2019


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

We have internet disruptions frequently due to, I think, extreme heat/demand on the power grid.  Our plan is loose:  make music, record it some way on whatever day works, and put it on the internet.  

Happy strumming, friends! 

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
08/27/24 08:50:49AM
2,157 posts

History of mountain dulcimer


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Robin has been a member here for years, although he hasn't participated much recently.  He's a great dulcimer player and innovative builder.

Nate
@nate
08/26/24 09:20:43PM
408 posts

Play Music On The Porch Day 2019


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Robin Thompson:

The 2024 edition of worldwide Play Music On The Porch Day is Saturday 31 August!  Make music where you can when you can, friends!  (Not everyone can go outdoors to play nor is everyone available on the actual stated date.) 

 
Glad you brought it up! This year is slipping by far too fast I almost let it blow past me!
Lilley Pad
@lilley-pad
08/26/24 03:14:23PM
53 posts

History of mountain dulcimer


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Just thought someone may find this interesting.  History and tradition of the mountain dulcimer.  By Robin Clark

Dusty Turtle
@dusty
08/24/24 10:40:58PM
1,817 posts

Play Music On The Porch Day 2019


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Unfortunately, I'll be traveling this year, but I'll come up with some way to mark the day and share some music.

Salt Springs
@salt-springs
08/24/24 09:01:01PM
214 posts

Magic Mountain 469-H Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Salt Springs:

https://fotmd.com/forums/forum/general-mountain-dulcimer-or-music-discussions/20342/does-anyone-know-when-my-mountain-dulcimer-was-built


I heard from JC years ago when checking one out......if I remember there might be a number stamped in the wood somewhere that could give you an idea as to when it was made.  I just don't remember.  People that have owned them, some on this site, swear by them.


 
Salt Springs
@salt-springs
08/24/24 08:45:08PM
214 posts

Magic Mountain 469-H Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

https://fotmd.com/forums/forum/general-mountain-dulcimer-or-music-discussions/20342/does-anyone-know-when-my-mountain-dulcimer-was-built

I heard from JC years ago when checking one out......if I remember there might be a number stamped in the wood somewhere that could give you an idea as to when it was made.  I just don't remember.  People that have owned them, some on this site swear by them.


updated by @salt-springs: 08/24/24 09:00:18PM
Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
08/24/24 05:53:29PM
2,157 posts

Magic Mountain 469-H Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Pictures would help.  Especially a close up of the Maker's label inside the instrument.

Robin Thompson
@robin-thompson
08/24/24 04:27:19PM
1,512 posts

Play Music On The Porch Day 2019


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

The 2024 edition of worldwide Play Music On The Porch Day is Saturday 31 August!  Make music where you can when you can, friends!  (Not everyone can go outdoors to play nor is everyone available on the actual stated date.) 

Comixchik
@comixchik
08/24/24 11:44:43AM
2 posts

Magic Mountain 469-H Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hello all.  Does anyone know any information about this model, made by the Shellnut Company, as Magic Mountain, in the San Francisco area, probably in the late 1970's or early 80's?

I'd appreciate any details, information, guidance or informed opinions.

Thanks all!


updated by @comixchik: 08/24/24 08:49:55PM
Dusty Turtle
@dusty
08/23/24 01:56:23PM
1,817 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I have to admit that I'm the opposite: I love changing strings.  New strings look, feel, and sound better than old ones.  On the dulcimer and guitar I use regularly, I change strings about every 3 months.  The other ones might go a year without new strings, but once I pick one up to play and realize how dull-sounding and stiff-feeling they are, I put new strings on right away.  Sometimes I have a little string-changing party and change strings on several instruments at once.

Make sure you have the right equipment: a string winder, a wire cutter, a capo, a tuner.  (If you have one of those scroll heads with the closed back, you might also need some needle-nose plyers.)  It takes 5 minutes to change 3 strings, and then for several months you get to enjoy the bright tone and soft feeling of the new strings.

Strings last longer if you keep your instruments in cases. If you hang them on the wall or on stands, as I tend to do, the oxidization process speeds up. 

Maddie Myers
@maddie-myers
08/23/24 12:47:59AM
10 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Strumelia, I had to laugh at what you said about changing strings.  I absolutely HATE changing strings!  I don't know why find it so tedious to do, especially when one has so many instruments. So, like you, I do it only when it can't be avoided any longer - like when I can see the rust on the strings and they sound totally dead.  I think with guitars, because it takes so long before the strings settle down and stop going out of tune right away. Annoying!  Dulcimers hold tuning so much longer! thumbsup

cairney
@steve-c
08/22/24 10:56:56PM
96 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Maddie and NateBuilds Toys,

it’s taken years to find the strings that I like best and suits my playing, but when I did I shopped around and bought them five and ten sets at a time.  Strumelia, I also found trying to change the strings on a large number of instruments at once is overwhelming. So I do one or two instruments a week until they are all done.  Guitar strings wear way quicker than dulcimer strings due to the high tension.  For me that could take a year.  

Nate
@nate
08/22/24 08:54:13PM
408 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Maddie Myers:

 How come nobody ever comments on how much money it costs to keep all these babies in fresh strings !?!  lipssealed


 
Right? One thing I've been meaning to try per the advice of some folks on here is getting a spool of string, which seems to be WAY cheaper.
cairney
@steve-c
08/22/24 07:31:24PM
96 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Susie,

haha, yes, I have owned so many instruments in my lifetime but what fun it has been.  

Susie
@susie
08/22/24 04:56:51PM
510 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

cairney:

I’ve always had too many dulcimers, it’s now a lifestyle! I’m living the dulcimer life.  Besides owning 35+ historical dulcimers, I own 3 Blue Lions, a McCafferty, John Stockard, Bella Dulcimer, 3 Folkcraft, Clemmer Banjammer, Keith Young, Ron Gibson, 2 Ron Ewings and a host of guitars, harps, grandpa’s Sax, psaltry, plus many more. It can’t be helped my father owned a music store when I was growing up.


 

I don't feel so bad about my "collection " any more. wasntme


That sounds like a dangerous thing, to have a family owned music store. But, oh so much fun! happydance

cairney
@steve-c
08/22/24 10:58:34AM
96 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

My Keith Young is a great player too!  I also have five Ukuleles that are a lot of fun.  My banjos are a five string and a four string that I’ve strung up with nylgut strings.  I play it the most in Chicago tuning, just like a big ukulele.

Strumelia
@strumelia
08/22/24 09:51:25AM
2,356 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

For the past 25 years I have had two mtn dulcimers that are good players- my Keith Young maple teardrop, and my cherry Galax by Ben Seymour. I have a finicky old kit dulcimer someone gave me from their closet yrs ago, but I don't play that one. So I consider I have two mountain dulcimers.
But I also have two epinettes, a langspil, and a hummel, which are all dulcimer-like instruments. It feels pretty well rounded. My wallet has kept me in line a little over the years. I have 8 banjos last i counted. Each one is very different from the other, for example my gourd banjo.

Strumelia
@strumelia
08/22/24 09:37:29AM
2,356 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

@maddie-myers , one day years ago, i got it into my head to change the strings on seven of my banjos at once. 35 strings, took hours. I don't know why i did such a crazy thing, but i vowed Never Again. shake   I'm normally pretty cheap about strings and only change them once in a while, not 'regularly'. The only strings I actually notice that 'die' over time are wound strings. The great Margaret Barry once said that in hard times she stripped wire from window screens to string her banjo with. surprised

cairney
@steve-c
08/22/24 08:27:06AM
96 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I’ve always had too many dulcimers, it’s now a lifestyle! I’m living the dulcimer life.  Besides owning 35+ historical dulcimers, I own 3 Blue Lions, a McCafferty, John Stockard, Bella Dulcimer, 3 Folkcraft, Clemmer Banjammer, Keith Young, Ron Gibson, 2 Ron Ewings and a host of guitars, harps, grandpa’s Sax, psaltry, plus many more. It can’t be helped my father owned a music store when I was growing up.


updated by @steve-c: 08/22/24 08:28:58AM
Maddie Myers
@maddie-myers
08/22/24 07:07:32AM
10 posts

amps and dulcimers


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks, Dusty.  Yeah, I didn't expect it to sound great but I'll be traveling in the US and won't have access to my regular amps at home in Oz.  I'll be dying to try out my new baritone - as better than nothing dulcimer

Dusty Turtle
@dusty
08/22/24 12:33:55AM
1,817 posts

amps and dulcimers


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Maddie, you will not harm either your baritone dulcimer or your bass amp.  The sound would likely be OK but not great.  Remember that the low string on a standard guitar is lower than the low string on your baritone, so normal guitar amps can handle a baritone dulcimer with no problem.


updated by @dusty: 08/22/24 12:34:52AM
Maddie Myers
@maddie-myers
08/22/24 12:33:32AM
10 posts

How Many Dulcimers Do You Own?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Yeah, I'm a little out of control with dulcimers and a few other things with strings: I have a standard McSpadden, McCafferty, Keith Young, 5-string Homer Ledford, a Clemmer Banjammer, and a huge standard I made from a kit (I call it The Boat). It doesn't yet know if it's a boat, standard, baritone or a bass. I have a McCafferty baritone on order to collect next month in the States.  My other noisemakers are 3 banjos, 3 guitars, waaay too many harmonicas, a panflute, and an electric bass I'm giving to my grandson who wants to play in the school jazz band. I gave my Native American flute to my son who cast covetous glances at it.  Just a final thought:  How come nobody ever comments on how much money it costs to keep all these babies in fresh strings !?!  lipssealed

Maddie Myers
@maddie-myers
08/21/24 11:44:35PM
10 posts

amps and dulcimers


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Can I plug my baritone dulcimer into a bass amp with no ill effects and will the sound be ok?

Thanks, Maddie

Lilley Pad
@lilley-pad
08/21/24 09:13:14PM
53 posts

String Action


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks everybody I think you're right I should just leave well enough alone if the instrument plays fine, I have no issues with the way it sounds at all, And it sounds really good. I think I'm just getting caught up in all this technical stuff, one of the drawbacks to YouTube I guess. Thanks Nate and Ken shrugger

Nate
@nate
08/21/24 04:11:40PM
408 posts

String Action


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I am not sure about the "one size" anecdote, but dramatically changing string size will dramatically change intonation. In the past, when I have already installed a fixed bridge, and it is only off by a couple cents, I will sometimes file a slot or two slightly deeper to adjust it. Not my favorite solution, but it shouldn't affect playability very much. For that reason, I recommend taking a tuner and fretting each note to see if the instrument is well intonated. If all the notes are in tune, I'd say leave it alone. If they're not, then it may be fair to assume that the strings are at different heights due to imprecision.
Nate

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
08/21/24 08:36:55AM
2,157 posts

String Action


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I've never heard that about not going up/down one string size once you set the action.    I suppose it's possible to adjust intonation by having the strings at different heights, but certainly is not a common technique.  Normally, folks who worry about intonation (not all of us by any stretch) adjust the angle at which the bridge sets to the strings -- usually the bass end of the bridge is something like 1/16" to 1/8" farther down the fretboard than the melody end  rather than exactly 90 degrees to the line of the strings.

Gotta remember that the dulcimer is still a folk instrument.  People keep trying to apply fancy orchestral instrument "tweaks" to an instrument never intended for such things.

Lilley Pad
@lilley-pad
08/20/24 03:21:26PM
53 posts

String Action


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Hey thanks Nate. It does have a fixed bridge. Is that why I have heard that one should only go up or down one size string size

once you sent the action?

Nate
@nate
08/20/24 05:53:37AM
408 posts

String Action


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I would recommend checking the frets with a tuner before making any alterations. It may be the case that the strings are set at different heights to accommodate their location on an installed bridge. There may be very small variations in the bridge that are actually adjustments made for intonation.
Nate


updated by @nate: 08/20/24 05:54:33AM
John C. Knopf
@john-c-knopf
08/18/24 09:35:04PM
435 posts

Tennessee music box just finished


FOR SALE:instruments/music items/CDs/Wanted to Buy...

This new solid-poplar Tennessee music box is offered for sale.  This is a replica of heavy, primitive dulcimers produced just after the Civil War in south-central Tennessee.  David Schnaufer was crazy about these things and made a video of several old ones, and collaborated on an article about them and their history. You can read more and see a video on my website of a guy playing one with a violin bow!  knopfdulcimers.com

The list price for these is $375, but I'll sell it to you for $300 plus shipping.  How's that?


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