Forum Activity for @lilley-pad

Hi kids. I hope I'm not repeating a previous post but I could not find anything under search so here goes. It's just a general question about pickups wanted to get feedback. K&K pickup versus LR baggs under saddle pickup. the little that I've been reading on the internet suggests that the K&K gives you a more realistic Acoustic sound. Do you guys find that to be true or what's your opinion in general? Thanks again, I hope everybody's doing well. A few months ago they operated on my left hand so now I'm doing finger exercises. I was getting what they call dupuytren’s contracture. I guess I'm just getting old. The good news is that everybody else is getting old with me. smile 

Thanks for the support, NATE

Really glad to hear you're recovering, John. I'll keep you in my prayers. Hope you're feeling well soon.

THANKS DUSTY

John, I'm so glad you're back home and healing. I hope you're feeling stronger every day and I look forward to hearing more of your music.

thanks GORDON.

John, thank goodness you are back home and on the mend please take good care of yourself and rest well. Pneumonia is nothing to sneeze at!😊

John, I hope you continue to feel better!  

Jan, that is so nice you got to meet Cynthia!  I always enjoyed her videos and her participation here. 

Jan, that is wonderful that you were able to visit Cynthia. On the way there and back you could have visited many more members of FOTMD who are not far off the route you traveled. I have not seen Cynthia participating here in a long time and must admit that I've been neglectful in contacting her.  Thank you for your report on your visit.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Thanks Ken

Hey!  Guess what?!  After 4 1/2 years of talking on the phone nearly every day, Cynthia Wigington and I finally got to meet in person and spend a week together in her Vermont community of West Fairlee.  My husband Craig and I drove up from Kentucky and got to enjoy the sights from Ohio to Mass. and up north from there.  We stayed at a nice Airbnb about a mile from her house and enjoyed many meals at local restaurants (think lobster, clams, scallops...yum!)  We even played a little music together!  We thank FOTMD for introducing us to each other so we could become friends during COVID.  

I'm happy to hear that you are back home. I pray that you recover fully and heal quickly.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

John I'm so glad you are on the mend. That sounds like it was no fun at all.
Big hugs to you...

Thanks John!

Glad to see you on the mend. Try and rest, seek some sunshine, and the opportunity you have to be "in the garden" where you're never alone....

Shalom

Sorry for the confusion....I have bought one. At an extremely low price, but it is in Rogers Ar, and I'm in Illinois. My quest is to either have some one help me pick/pack it up and ship it to me [all costs/fees paid in advance]. Or... If there is some one who could use/needs one, I would flat out "gift" it to them. I'm sure it needs some TLC, how much or little I do not know at this point. Although I do not play HD [yet], I've always tried to get instruments into the hands of those who strive to, but are "acquisition" challenged through cost or life getting in the way....

 share.png - 793KB

Hi Everyone,  A couple of days ago I just got back from a six day stay at the hospital with pneumonia.

I am glad to be in rehabilitation now at home. Thanks for your prayers and support. John McKinstry

@john-petry , from your wording I'm not quite sure whether you are looking to get a hammered dulcimer, or looking to sell one...?

Looking for someone near Rogers Arkansas interested in a VERY inexpensive Hammered dulcimer, or for help in shipping it to me?  anybody.....

Glad it all worked out for you.  And you probably have the only Roosebeck with a bone bridge!

I'm glad to hear that everything worked out for you with your new dulcimer. I'm sure you will enjoy playing it and it will bring you joy for many, many years.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

I frequently tell people ALL NEW INSTRUMENTS NEED TO BE SET UP AFTER ASSEMBLY. On factory made instruments this is often left to the retailer, or to be done by the buyer or at their expense.

Sounds like you got great service at a reasonable price.

I've bought a number of instruments on Shop Goodwill. The dulcimers have had minor issues which were easily resolved. The violins/fiddles frequently never had the bows properly rosined. When you "buy cheap," expect that an hour's work, or more, will be needed to make a string instrument play properly.

Hi everyone. 

I have picked up my Roosebeck from the luthier, and as promised, here's an update: 

The luthier fashioned a new bone bridge that fits more snugly in its slot. He also glued the nut in place. More importantly, he addressed the tuning peg issues. It seems that Roosebeck used standard guitar machine tuners, which have a lot of washers and nuts to stop the pins from bending, as they would not be supported otherwise on a guitar. However, on the dulcimer, they pass through the peg head, and the end of the pin is supported because it fits neatly into a hole on the other side, so there is no need for the nuts and washers. The luthier removed these so that the strings can now be wound closer to the edges of the peg head. I just have to leave a bit of extra length on the string when I restring. This reduces the angle the string takes from the nut to the tuner. You can see the before and after pictures attached. 

I also asked him to cut slots for three string arrangements: 

- 4 string double melody: I asked him to bring the melody strings closer together, as I found my finger was slipping between them. He reduced the distance between them by 1 mm, and it has made a huge difference. The middle string is now actually centred over the fret board, and is equidistant between the outer melody string and the bass string, which is great because it has made strumming easier.

- 4 string equidistant: the slots he cut are shallow enough that I don't have to detune much to slip the strings across. 

- 3 string equidistant: I can now remove the inner melody string so I have three equidistant strings. 

I can now use any tuning I like without the nut and bridge moving at all. 

Finally, I asked for the following string action: 1.5 mm at the first fret; 2.5 mm at the seventh fret; 3 mm at the 17th fret. He achieved this perfectly, and I love the action now. (Apologies for using mm - I'm not familiar with inches.)

Thank you all very much for your contributions, without which I would have struggled to explain what I needed from the luthier. (He works primarily on violins and cellos, and he'd never worked on a dulcimer before, but he did an excellent job, and I'm happy to say that the Roosebeck sounds and plays great and the intonation is perfect.)

Although it cost me an extra R1700 ($90), I still don't regret buying the Roosebeck because it was basically my only option, and without it, I wouldn't be playing dulcimer right now.

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Thanks for pointing this out Wally. I guess I skimmed over the Geared Tuners part without it registering in my brain. The word "Friction" jumped out at me. 

Yes, it would be nice to see the installation instructions.

I agree, it is a puzzlement.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

" Its is made of sturdy metal, which is very. " 

I think you should just take the strings off, put 1 tiny drop of superglue at the bottom of the bridge and nut and hold them down a couple of minutes. Leave it to set for several hours before putting the strings back on. --> Try using a bass string one size thinner/lighter gauge- it won't pull with as much tension. A change of one size shouldn't make much difference in playing.

By the way I think those tuners are common enclosed-gear guitar machine head tuners. Not planetary or "planet" geared tuners. Either type are fine to use, but machine head guitar tuners are usually cheaper. Aliexpress is based in China and usually ships from China. Inconsistencies in their ad descriptions and grammar are typical.

The listing says "Banjo Tuner Tuning Key Head String Machine Peg Pegs Geared Tuners Parts Accessories Knobs Friction Set Keys Button 5String"

If there are gears in the package configuration, they almost certainly have to be planetary. Planetary gears have internal friction due to rubbing of the teeth. If the gear friction isn't large enough, the string tension will cause the gear set to unwind.

(Before I retired I taught about two weeks worth of gear design to Mechanical Engineering seniors.)

Perhaps additional friction is adjustable, just as on traditional friction pegs. It would be nice if we could access the installation instructions, but they might not be in usable English.

IS A PUZZLEMENT !

The one thing I noticed in the description of the tunes from aliexpress is that they are described as "friction" tuners rather than planetary. Could these be friction tuners disguised as a planetary tuner? Or is it an AI generated description? It has been interesting reading all these responses.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

AG, it is clear that you have an instrument that needs some adjustment to be playable.  That is not surprising. I've seen some Roosebeck dulcimers that were perfectly fine and others with serious design flaws.  I think they move their factories around eastern Europe and Asia, so quality varies tremendously.

This discussion settled on the "glue it down" solution, which is the correct one, I think.   Gluing the bridge and nut in their slots will stop this movement.

HOWEVER, you have now raised the issue of string spacing, and you may want to have a new nut and a new bridge made with the string spacing you prefer.  First, be aware that many traditional dulcimers had string spacing in which the melody strings were set apart from the drone strings.  And the spacing of the melody strings from each other can also be wider than you might think if the intent was for the instrument to be played with a noter rather than fingers.

So there is not necessarily anything "wrong" with the string spacing on your instrument. But if you want--at least some of the time--to play across all the strings and want to use your fingers to fret strings, you might want to ensure that the melody strings are close together and the middle string is equidistant between the base and melody.  If you are happy with the action, you might be able to just put new grooves in the existing nut and bridge.

Wow! People who wrote on that page use English in some mysterious ways!  I think the foreign manufacturer reverse-engineered a high-quality Waverly 5-Star planetary peg, then just cheaped-out on all components when they made theirs.

A low- to moderately-priced dulcimer should wear tuning pegs that are appropriate, that is, what it's designed to use.

I discovered that there's a very good luthier who lives down the road from me. He said I should bring the instrument round tomorrow and he'll have a look. 

I'll be sure to let you guys know what he says. 

Another thing I should mention is that the middle string is not equidistant between the bass and melody strings. It's closer to the bass string. I saw another Roosebeck owner mention this in another forum so I don't know if that's by design on their part. I can't really see the utility in that. 

Also, the melody strings are about 4mm (0.157 inch) apart. I'm not sure what the ideal distance is but it seems like a larger gap than I've seen on other dulcimers.

I could almost certainly make a new nut and bridge or cut the desired slots myself but there's no harm in having a pro check it out.

There are some tuners which appear to be planetary on Ali Express for under $15 for a set of 4. The only review gave them a rating of 1 out of 5. Anyone want to risk ordering them and reporting back?

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804893006078.html?src=google&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&gclsrc=aw.ds&albagn=888888&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&gclsrc=aw.ds&albagn=888888&ds_e_adid=&ds_e_matchtype=&ds_e_device=c&ds_e_network=x&ds_e_product_group_id=&ds_e_product_id=en3256804893006078&ds_e_product_merchant_id=108902014&ds_e_product_country=US&ds_e_product_language=en&ds_e_product_channel=online&ds_e_product_store_id=&ds_url_v=2&albcp=19235666539&albag=&isSmbAutoCall=false&needSmbHouyi=false&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwmYCzBhA6EiwAxFwfgFXrUvs90KP-kPcSvqLyy7rHekyiQDsj8o3i9XTEbR55V5L3Zu18MhoCHkAQAvD_BwE&aff_fcid=2f0caf44291a45238b3f743bdc657b33-1717598814106-09948-UneMJZVf&aff_fsk=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=aaf&sk=UneMJZVf&aff_trace_key=2f0caf44291a45238b3f743bdc657b33-1717598814106-09948-UneMJZVf&terminal_id=47c494e9bbda4caf8033935b2dddd1b1&afSmartRedirect=y&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

That's a very interesting point about the tuners. I hadn't thought of that.

Out of interest, I detailed my problem to the customer service department of the supplier and this was their (somewhat dubious) response:

Thank you for your very detailed inquiry. 

I talked to the repair shop at Roosebeck and they are more in the position that their instruments were not designed to be "customized", and that using the instrument with any fewer strings than designed will cause an imbalance that is causing the movement.

They say the only way to keep the bridge and nut from moving is to glue it down. They use Loctite glue.

Of the various options you have compiled, it seems if you want to keep the two pieces from slipping or moving around, but don't want to glue it down, you may want to try spraying the back of the pieces with non-permanent spray adhesive, they stuff they use on fabrics, headliners, etc. If you search on Amazon, you may find a liquid non permanent adhesive. This would be the preferred option versus permanent glue or screws into the wood.

If the adhesive solution does not hold tight enough and you have to resort to screwing things in place, go peruse the Home Depot isle where they stock screws and brackets, you can most likely find a very small screw/bracket/washer that you can screw into the sides of the bridge to lock it in place.

Should be a selection of washers like this at Home Depot for you to find the right size, then you would need a very small wood screw.

Sorry we can't offer an exact solution, but it looks like you have explored all the options.

Those look like high-end, planetary tuners in those Roosebeck dulcimers.  I'm surprised to see they're using those relatively expensive ones on their "cheap" instruments from Pakistan.

It may be that the tuners on your instrument were not correctly installed. I looked ans some Amazon ads for these instruments, and they have the thick round part which is in the groove on your instrument on the outside, and only a washer and nut on the inside.

See the tuners on these two ads.

https://www.amazon.com/Roosebeck-DMCRT4-4-String-Mountain-Dulcimer/dp/B006GVLT3Y/ref=m_crc_lf_rg_d_t1_d_sccl_3_3/137-3203011-0015343?pd_rd_w=jiiG6&content-id=amzn1.sym.fe77186e-e843-43d6-98bc-9f11dffb90ae&pf_rd_p=fe77186e-e843-43d6-98bc-9f11dffb90ae&pf_rd_r=WB1M7368613PAJEQA5RY&pd_rd_wg=lnXPn&pd_rd_r=4cc26045-876c-4550-b1d2-e1605ef0aefc&pd_rd_i=B006GVLT3Y&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/Roosebeck-Mountain-Dulcimer-4-String-Fretboard/dp/B076564C5C/ref=pd_ci_mcx_pspc_dp_d_2_t_3?pd_rd_w=tU68I&content-id=amzn1.sym.568f3b6b-5aad-4bfd-98ee-d827f03151e4&pf_rd_p=568f3b6b-5aad-4bfd-98ee-d827f03151e4&pf_rd_r=EN347QDZGAK4X4P433KW&pd_rd_wg=tDlKX&pd_rd_r=7ee66d5e-6b16-4b7d-980b-109ad02e2a8d&pd_rd_i=B076564C5C

Looking at photo img-20240604-210414-914.jpg it seems clear to me that the problem is the result of putting fancy tuners of some sort on an instrument designed for simple ones. The large angle of the bass string lead is pulling the nut toward the melody side. Replacing that one tuner could go a long way toward a fix.

Strings should run as straight as possible above the nut, with any pull on a tuning peg toward the outside. With a slot in the head for the strings, any fastener on the inside makes the string lead worse.

The nut would not be moving if it was thick enough to wedge itself in the groove which positions it, that is a precision issue. I might be that simply putting one or more pieces of paper of tape on the head side of the nut might create the necessary friction. You could also make a new nut.

I like NateBuildsToys' spacer suggestion also.

Super glue is the simple patch solution, and maybe the best..

I'm glad my friends here were able to help you, Andrew. The next time you decide to change your strings I would do as suggested and put a drop of glue under the nut and the bridge to keep them from moving when you put the new strings on. If they are not secured in place they will slide in the slots as you've discovered. You are conquering the idiosyncrasies of the mountain dulcimer. Stick with it, you are doing well.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Haha no worries. I need all the help I can get!

Thanks to everyone for helping me out with this issue. It's awesome to have such a helpful community to turn to.

I'll post an update in case someone has a similar issue down the line. 

LOL whoops, I typed out almost the exact same message you did at the same time

Both the bridge and nut look to be in slots. If I am understanding correctly, the issue is that they do not fit snugly into the slots and are not glued into place, so the bridge and nut are being pulled sideways in their slots by the force of the low D string.

After seeing the photos, I definitely think that you should remove the strings, and then glue the nut and bridge into place, taking serious care to make sure that they are perfectly centered on the fingerboard, and also being very careful to make sure that the nut is held firmly in place while the glue sets. you seriously want to avoid leaving any kind of gap between the nut and the fingerboard, as that will mess up your intonation. On some dulcimers, the bridge and nut can be replaced for different string arrangements, but your bridge and nut have slots for both of the common arrangements, so probably the bridge and nut were not intended to be sitting loosely.