Forum Activity for @majajog

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Robert/John, its was great to hear that you both have experience with the fret materials I was interested in.  Interesting to hear the problem with coiled EVO. That's an issue to think about.

i figured that stainless was a lot harder to work with. I've watched nickel silver frets being installed and my own frets being dressed.  The filing/planing looked fairly straightforward.  Doing that on a much harder material would not be as easy.

i had no idea that re-fretting could cost as much as an instrument.  Not sure I would be do it in that case unless it was a dire necessity.  Even then I might use order a new instrument. On a new instrument stainless adds about $70 and EVO something less to the total price.

In regard to hearing the differences with different fret materials I am sorry to say I can't take up the build two different instrument challenge.  I can barely nail two boards together and even then I am going to bend the nails.  I did not say they that there weren't tonal differences in different materials only that I may not be able to hear them or hear them differently.  I still sometimes have a hard time distinguishing two adjacent notes on the dulcimer or knowing which was higher in pitch. No musical ear at all. What I am doing trying to play an instrument is a mystery to me.

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I used evo gold on three banjos. Really good stuff. After three years there is hardly a scratch on frets. What I don't like about EG is it comes from a coil. It is very hard to flatten the radius. On flat fingerboards it will popup in middle sometimes. If I could get it in straight lengths I would use it exclusively. Re fretting can cost you as much as you paid for the dulcimer. At least by EBay standards. And it puts a lot of stress on the instrument. Frets have to be really worn to need replacement. I think for most folks its easier to live with worn frets. I use Stewart MacDonald nickel silver wire. Its very good and easy to use. And it comes is straight lengths.. Robert.
updated by @robert-schuler: 03/20/17 09:56:25AM

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

A few years ago, Karen and I found ourselves having to have frets dressed and/or replaced every few months.  We use low action and we don't have a particularly heavy touch, but we were absolutely wearing frets out.  We spoke with Richard Ash at Folkcraft and decided to try an experiment.  Karen swapped to EVO frets, and I switched to stainless steel frets on our main performance instruments.  Any change in tone is negligible, but neither one of us has had to address fret wear since.  We admittedly play the instruments more than the average mountain dulcimer hobbyist, but changing fret material made a huge difference for us.  My understanding is that the stainless is a pain for luthiers to work with (more time, tough on tools, etc.), but it holds like a champ.  The EVO is apparently easier to work with for the luthiers, and it also lasts well.  Both materials have a higher cost, but when you compare the cost to frequent maintenance costs it actually saves money in the long run.  Just something to ponder. 

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ken, majajog, so here is the challenge to you.  Build two instruments from the exact same wood, take alternating strips to build the two instruments.  Then put different nuts and frets on the two final builds, say one with ebony and brass frets, the other with bone and stainless.  Then tell me you can't hear the difference.  I have, I can.  Think I am wrong, build the instruments and post the results.

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ken, I agree that many people might not be able to hear the difference beteeen frets made of different materials.  A lot depends on the person, their physical abilities and experience.

When I was buying my dulcimer, they wanted to know what woods I wanted.  For a non-musician this was a challenging question.  However, they had a variety of combinations for me to listen to.  A lot of people I know have all walnut dulcimers saying they liked the mellow/bassy sound.  To me all walnut sounded sort o like lad or dead.  I finally settled on walnut and spruce because it sounded quite a bit brighter to me.  The question is whether this brighter sound appealed to me because it was better or because I have a high frequency hearing loss that began in the service and has not improved with age and the spruce helped compensate for the loss.  My wife has a similar issue and she ended up with cherry and redwood because it sounded better to her than an all cherry or all walnut dulcimer.

Knowing about the loss, would we be able to hear the differences due to fret materials?  I don't think we could.  However, we are getting pretty far afield from question about fret materials.  Thanks to everyone for your comments.

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

There are quite a few good luthiers here a FOTMD who might be willing to take on your re-fret job if you ask.  Start a new thread in the General or Building categories with a tile something like "Looking For Luthier to Re-fret Dulcimer and in the body of your message tell them what kind of dulcimer you have and re-iterate what you've said here...

Dusty -- a lower action wouldn't necessarily reduce fret wear if the play has "white knuckles" from pressing down too hard, but if the action is high, lowering it would certainly help the issue.  

From experience, I'm not sure that the average person could hear the difference between nickel-silver and stainless steel frets, or even bronze.  The material of the nut and bridge do affect the sound, but again, only if you have very sensitive ears.  Those sorts of changes readily show up if you use acoustic metering equipment to look at the sound waves produced, but often are barely, if at all discernable to the ordinary player.  The differences would be only a "cent" or two on a tuner, less than a tenth as much as say the difference between an F and a F#.

updated by @ken-hulme: 03/19/17 06:13:57PM

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Dusty, thanks for the suggestion to check the action but I don't think that is the problem since there isn't very much room to lower the action on the nut end where most of the wear is taking place.  I will have it checked out but I was sort of under the impression that McSpaddens don't usually have this problem and are known for their playability. But, it could be an issue and I will have it looked at.

One of the people in our dulcimer group brought in a dulcimer and said she was having problems playing it.  It was sort of a souvenir dulcimer she had bought in Branson.  It had a very high action and very small gauge strings.  You could almost cut off your fingertips trying to play it.  I suggested having a luthier lower the action or buy a new dulcimer.  She had the same problems finding a luthier as I did and bought a different dulcimer.

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Another issue to think about.

I'm not a builder, so I have no real expertise in this area. But I would assume that the lower the action the less wear on the frets.  Lower action is also easier on the fingers and facilitates faster and easier playing. It might be that you are pushing down hard because your action is high.  Maybe you could look into adjusting the action in addition to get new frets.

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ebony makes very good nuts and frets.  Personally, I prefer bone as I believe it produces a cleaner tone.  Whenever you use ebony, consider the following link: http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/ebony-dark-outlook-dark-woods/ .

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks for the comment Matt.  I guess I assumed a fret was a fret was a fret and the only difference the material made was in how long the fret would last.  I never thought the material would affect the sound.  I really like the sound of my instrument and would hesitate to do anything that might change it.  I will check into the issue further but may just end up re-fretting with the original material.

As for the nut and saddle (bridge) they are both ebony.  

Are there lots and lots of good luthiers?  I would have no idea of how to check whether one good versus mediocre.  The only person I know who has had work done on his instruments sent them to Folkcraft for it even though they weren't Folkcraft instruments.

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

This is a timely discussion for me because I was just thinking about my frets yesterday.  I have a beautiful FolkRoots dulcimer with a rich sound that I love.  I've had it less than a year.  But when I slide across the strings it feels like I'm going over speed bumps.  I am a beginner/intermediate player and working hard to play smoother.  So maybe I need to think about having the frets replaced/lowered. 

I live close to Warren May but don't know if he'd work on a dulcimer he didn't make.  Any comments from you experienced players?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Frets are one part of the whole system that makes the sound you hear when you play.  A general rule is that that stiffer the material used, the brighter the tone.  A maple soundboard will produce a brighter tone than spruce.  The same holds true for your frets, but to a lesser degree.    Brass is softer than stainless and will (modestly) soften your sound.  Whatever frets you choose, you will eventually need to replace them.  Once you find a good luthier who can talk to you about fret material, choose the fret material for the sound you wish to produce rather than how long the fret will last.  (While you are at it, talk to the luthier about the saddle and nut material you are using.  These will also have an impact on the sound your instrument produces.)

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I try to practice a lot since I am not a very good player. Still improving but it is very slow going.

i will look around for a luthier.  I only mentioned McSpadden because we spend 4 to 6 weeks in Mountain View AR listening to and playing music.  Figured that Jim Wood could re-fret my dulcimer while I was there because his name is in the instrument  But, he doesn't do stainless.

I know of only one luthier in the Phoenix area and it is a long haul for me.  Don't know of any in central WI.  Couldn't  even find any dulcimer players there.  Anyway, thanks for the comments. I was sort of hoping this was a relatively common problem but from the reactions of a couple of professional players I figured it was idiosyncratic to me.  I will find someone to re-fret for me and in the meantime will try to chord lightly and vertically.

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

There are hundreds of luthiers who use a variety of fret materials, you don't have to have McSpadden replace the frets.  Ask around and see who uses stainless, and how much they would charge to re-fret your dulcimer. 

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Glad to know I'm not the only one. Really am trying to lighten up.

 

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

That's quite a bit of playing.  If you push the strings sideways while fretting, it does dig in more too.

Pro players i suspect get their frets worked on somewhat regularly every few years.

I'm no pro, but I have banjos with frets I probably ought to replace...dug my way down.  ;)

 

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks Ken.  I guess I do press hard, will try to lighten up.  Play an Hour or two a day, 4-6 days a week.  I am thinking to have the frets, replaced just wish McSpadden would do stainless.  ugh.

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I am using brass frets on my newest dulcimer. I had a question about their longevity and I spoke with a pretty noteworthy luthier supplier who said they should last a good long time, not to worry, if they are the style you are looking form. They do look nice on the Bolivian Rosewood fret board.

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Frets wear due to the pressure of the strings on them. Do you press really hard on the strings? If so, you might notices some grooves in the fret board as well. Another factor is the amount of playing time. Do you play 23 hours a day, seven days a week? I have not used stainless steel frets, but I understand that they hold up to even the toughest playing. I'm not familiar with the Evo fret material. I have no experience with it. If you can't adjust your playing pressure, you may need to try the harder frets.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Fret Material

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

My dulcimer is 5 years old and I have had to have the frets dressed the last two years.  I am guessing that I am a sloppy chorder, pushing the chord down and sideways rather than just down.  I am trying to correct this but not sure how much success I am achieving.

It might be easier to replace the frets with a harder material.  McSpadden uses German Silver but also offers EVO which is 25% harder.  EVO is sort of gold colored which I am not sure i like but could accept if I wanted to change to it.

Blue Lion offers stainless steel frets which are 50% harder than German Silver.  McSpadden does not offer stainless steel.  Does anyone have any comments, suggestions or preferences about fret materials or suggestions about how to reduce the wear and tear on the frets?

Am I hearing an echo? Great silkie

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

The Irish rune that I know as The Great Silkie is not the same as She Moves Through The Fair; although if the meter is right you could probably sing on with the other -- like people who sing Amazing Grace to House Of The Rising Sun...

Am I hearing an echo? Great silkie

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

She moved through the fair........Are these the same song? I love Joe Collin's tab The Great silkie. And I love, She moved through the fair. Both haunting. Suddenly, I said, just this morning, ....WAIT...they sound exactly alike.

?????   Are they?

updated by @d-chitwood: 03/18/17 09:10:31AM

Stand-Up Stands

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Well, I gave the stand it's inaugural use last night at Open Mic -- by our standards it was chilly too!  Anyway, the stand worked great even though the plank floor where we play isn't nice and even!  Everyone remarked on how much easier it was to hear the dulcimer, how much better the sound was.  I'm always miked, but opening up the back to vibrate just gave a much better sound.  From my viewpoint (now much higher since I'm standing)  interaction with the audience was much better too.

Oh Robert that's exciting that you nailed the fingering on your recorder after many months of not playing!  You deserve to be proud.  Would love to hear/see you play it sometime!  The sound of recorders is so rich and beautiful.  I agree, a Bb instrument is a wonderful range.  And yeah I hear you on the C minor tunes...yummy!

Lisa enjoy the class, I wish I could be there. I like my generation Bb. Its great for those C minor tunes.
Today I picked up my alto recorder and played it the first time in months. I was beside myself when I got the fingering down on the first try. Playing Whiskey before Breakfast... Have fun, enjoy the snow, we got only rain... Robert.

Wow, I'm relieved that my first pennywhistle class (of a series of 6) isn't until tomorrow night which means the snowy roads will be pretty well all cleared by then.  If it was tonight they might have had to re-schedule.  Looking forward to it although the first class will likely be a little too easy for me since I've been playing for 7 months already.  It'll be fun anyway though!  

Yesterday evening during the snowstorm Brian and I played music in the living room.  His played his fiddle tuned to Bb flat, and I played my low Bb whistle in harmony to the melodies which he played.  It worked out really nicely and was so enjoyable!   Still finding my way around the notes and lots of mistakes, but mostly sounds pretty...wheee!  It's great to be able to choose what kind of instrument I want to play on a given day.  Most go along just fine with Brian on the fiddle.  He's a 'one instrument' kind of fellow..I'm way more fickle.  

What are you reading right now?

OFF TOPIC discussions

PILGRIM A biography of William Brewster.  I found out lately that he's my 12th great grandfather that was the leader on the MAYFLOWER.  I find this very interesting.  I have other books too that I have stacked up and read snippets but this one....way cool. aloha, irene

noter/drone 6 string dulcimer players?

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

What Folkcraft says about their six-string is:

"When we string up six-string instruments here in the shop, we use two .011 strings for the melody course, two .013 strings for the middle course, and one .011 and one .024W string for the bass course". 

"The melody strings are tuned in unison, the middle strings are tuned in unison, and the bass strings are tuned one-high (same as the melody string) and one-low (one octave below the melody string)."

What are you reading right now?

OFF TOPIC discussions

The Mediterranean Diabetes Cookbook by Amy Riolo, published by the American Diabetes Assoc that Lady Sally picked up at a recent diabetes conference she attended as part of her PharmD Continuing Ed.

What are you reading right now?

OFF TOPIC discussions

Currently reading Ghost Ship by Clive Cussler and Graham Brown. I finished both the Jefferson book and the latest issue of Fretboard Journal.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

updated by @ken-longfield: 03/14/17 04:35:50PM

What are you reading right now?

OFF TOPIC discussions

Currently reading Testosterone Rex, a popular science book written with a sense of humor. Also, just started Faithful Place by Tana French.

Stand-Up Stands

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Not sure if my 'folding stand!' is luggage or something else, it's about 29" high. Nice idea & good luck with your presentation. 

Is this an Edsel or Fred Martin?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks for the photos and feedback, looking at the pictures of yours, I would lean towards it being an Edsell, a lot of strong similarity, mine looks to be older or just more played judging by the oils impregnated into the finger board, even the heart hole angles are right, and the similarity in the head stock are quite strong. From what I've heard and seen Fred tended to put the paper inside.

Stand-Up Stands

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Ireland and Scotland both seem still VERY tied to their "folk" traditions, much more so that England and America.  Conversely, we seem to take great pride in smashing a lot of that "ethnic rubbish" as Ronnie Brown of the Corries once called it!

I stopped by a local restaurant supply place today and got the dark walnut 38" high tray stand locally for the same amount I would have payed for it through www.webstaurant.com, and didn't have to wait.  First impression is that this playing stand-up is going to be a fun experience!

Stand-Up Stands

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Sounds very interesting, look forward.Going to a lecture myself tonight given by Terry Moylan on Poetry and Songs of the Irish Revolution 1887-1926. The Indignant Muse title of this Landmark work by the speaker contains 560 of the thousands of  songs and poems created during this extraordinary period of Irish History. Two songs written by James Connolly (Executed for his part in the 1916 Rising) the music for these two songs was composed by a relative of mine Seamus Hughes.  

updated by @macaodha: 03/13/17 08:10:35AM

Stand-Up Stands

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Marg-- these are similar to a luggage stand (we have one for our AirBnb rental cabana) but much taller -- at least the height of a conventional table.

Val -- Thanx, I will try to get it recorded.   It's interesting to see how the wording and tunes changed as they wandered around Great Britain, across The Pond, and from place to place across the eastern US.  I'm going to give histories of, and perform one version or another of, Child #1, 2, 81, 84, 95, 204, 293, and Roud #2 and 140 plus A Newe Northen Dittye of ye Ladye Greene Sleves, which is not, a ballad, of course. 

Stand-Up Stands

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Would love to hear and see your presentation and performance as I'm sure other FOTMD  members would, hope you record it.

Stand-Up Stands

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Inns/models/hotels at one time had folding wooden stands like yours for the suitcases, not sure if they still do but I have one. Interesting idea, good luck with your presentation ken

Which bridge compensation for A ginger

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Gingers tuned to DAdd work great for beginners just starting out.  Same tuning as most other players and most of the tab.  My spouse who plays the ginger also had the 1.5 fret added fairly recently to accommodate some of the finger picked tunes she is playing.  We are also fortunate that her ginger sounds great when played with my standard.

Stand-Up Stands

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

That's a great idea, Ken. My son left a keyboard stand in the attic when he moved out, but my concern has been that it isn't that sturdy when strumming. I'll have to dig it out and give it a try. The tray table looks to be more stable. If mother nature has its way, I may have plenty of time to do that on Tuesday after shoveling snow.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."