Forum Activity for @strumelia
Shas writes:""I just ran over the strings with my electronic tunerand was a bit alarmed to discoverthat the middle string (currently tuned to A)is sharp already at the first fretand becomes increasingly sharper as I move up the fretboard.The other three strings are true right up to the 9th fret.Is this a flaw, or is it inherent in the system?""Hi Shas, there is reason for this, and it is true of most stringed fretted instruments....The thicker the string, the more it will tend to sound sharp when the thinner string frets a true note. Most frets are set so they will be noting the truest for the all-important melody string.So then you'd ask me- But why then isn't it my thickest BASS string that has the most sharpness problem?The answer is that it's really your MIDDLE string that is thickest. The middle string is thicker than the CORE string of the wound bass string. The winding around the bass string does not contribute to this effect. So really, the middle string is your thickest core wire, and has the most issue with fretting true to note.Us banjo players struggle with this and use compensated bridges to help lessen the difference in the tiny sharpness we hear when fretting the middle string. Again, our heavy wound bass string has less problem than the thickest middle string.The GOOD NEWS is that you are HEARING this sharpness- that means you have a good ear!! ;DMany people do not hear the slight differences in pitch trueness at all. Rejoice and take pride in your accurate ear!One more minor point- many beginners press down too hard when fretting, and this worsens the problem even more, by pulling/stretching the string all the way down to the wooden fretboard as opposed to simply being pushed down enough to make good fret contact. This extra stretching makes the string even sharper when fretted. Work on developing a lighter fretting touch, and fret the string just to the left of the intended fret, not in the middle between two frets.
ShasI have worried about the same thing on all of my instruments. I have checked tuning at different fret positions on my dulcimers and guitars and found them at each fret to be off a little from the expected pitch. Some of my instruments are back on pitch by the 7th fret (dulcimer, maybe 5th or 12th frets on guitars) but a few never come back. Some strings do better than others along the way. I think instrument construction makes lots of compromises and the strings selected and the fret positions are close enough on most instruments (hopefully within a few cents on each fret for each string). Since strings can be of different sizes and age on an instrument, perfect pitch at each fret for each string might require constant adjustment. The fret for one string might need to be a little higher where the same relative fret for the next string might need to be lower. As the strings age, both strings may require the same relative fret position. I think the luthiers that construct instruments most of the time use accepted fret/bridge/nut placements with given string sets and most instruments are close enough. If I find a string that is too far off as I check it going up the fret board on any instrument and it causes the instrument to sound bad, I might consider getting a new string and/or a different size string.ThanksDave Shas Cho said:
Oh, but I want to understand it ALL!
Immediately!
;=)
I just ran over the strings with my electronic tuner
and was a bit alarmed to discover
that the middle string (currently tuned to A)
is sharp already at the first fret
and becomes increasingly sharper as I move up the fretboard.
The other three strings are true right up to the 9th fret.
Is this a flaw, or is it inherent in the system?
Hmmm...
I just did the same experiment with my ukulele
and the C and A strings become sharp at the first fret
and this sharpness increases up the fretboard,
but my G and E strings remain true to the 12th fret.
I never knew that before...
Hi Shas - It is the size of the strings that put limits on what you can tune them to.Its a general rule that the thickness (gauge) of a string will dictate what note is produced over a certain string length, at a particular level of tension. If a string is quite slack it will buzz and give a muddy kind of sound; there needs to be enough tension to give volume, clarity and sustain. Obviously if the tension goes too tight then the string will break, (and there is also the risk of damaging the instrument if it is not braced for such high levels of tension.) So to keep a good balanced tension, thicker strings are used for the lower notes and thinner ones for the higher ones. The gauge of the string will put limits on how highly it can be tensioned. So for the usual kinds of gauges used on a dulcimer, the possible range is probably C-G.Which key you may wish to play in could be dictated by a number of factors such as your own vocal range if you are playing to accompany your own singing, or needing a common key such as D, C or G if you want to be able to jam with players of other instruments using a repertoire of popular folk/old time/bluegrass/country etc.
"but the key will generally be between C and G."No, you *can* tune to any key you want- you just have to figure out which tunings/octaves to use so you don't break strings. Some people also use capos to change key without retuning and without putting much stress on the strings."most" common key these days is D....but you are by no means restricted to D. Not that it's so terribly complicated, but there is way more to learn here than can be explain in one or two paragraphs.Learn a few things at a time- it will slowly come together for you. :)
Shas - "tune to any key you like" with the provisio that if it breaks the note is too high!Part of what that was trying to say is that if you are playing by/for yourself, and not with other dulcimers, the actual key note of the bass string doesn't matter. Jean Ritchie and a host of others have said to tune the bass string to some note that sounds good with your voice; then tune the other strings relative to that note.I jokingly call those the "incestuous" tunings - because they're "relative" to the bass string. ............... never mind...Ionian Mode - relative tuning. Tune the bass string to something that sounds good. Fret the bass string at the 4th fret and sound that note. Tune the middle and melody strings to that note. If that bass string was tuned to D, you have DAA.
"When I see D-A-d,does this just indicate that the second Dis in a higher octave?"Yes. when we write out tunings, such as either DAd or 1-5-8, the first letter or number is usually the thick bass string. The last letter or number is the melody string (or strings as in your case). The middle thing is the middle string.The melody strings are usually in the octave that's higher up from the bass string octave.If your pair of melody strings are tuned up to the high 'd', then I suggest that you NOT tune them higher than the next note up, or 'e'....they might break.So that means if you want to tune to the key of F you would tune NOT to FCf, but you'd choose instead to tune the melodies DOWN to the F below their original d, not up. Then you'd be in FCF, but it would be pretty floppy sounding. Many dulcimer players for this reason avoid the key of F. The key of G is usually 'ok' by tuning GDG.You will be using TAB written for '3 strings'- think of your melody pair as one string. the tab written for 4 strings is meant for 4 equal-distant strings, no pairs.
updated by @strumelia: 02/14/16 09:00:11PM
Strings
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Thank you Phil for the info. Next time i order strings i'll give your suggestions a try.Thanks, Bill
Strings
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Bill, on juststrings site, click on guitar strings and then single strings. They will all be ball end. I use the juststrings brand for the melody and middle and Elixir for the bass (the phosphor bronze nanoweb coated are really nice!). The gauges I use are .012,.015,.024. You can order several at a time and save on shipping.
Strings
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Bill you want plain steel in the small sizes .010, .012., etc..... the .022 that's where you have several choices... you can have nickel or bronze wound... I prefer the sound of bronze wound... also you can get string that are coated to help make them not squeak so bad.. (Elixir is on brand) that is what I personally use... hope this helps..
Strings
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Okay, HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP. Now that i got your attention, looking at the juststring.com site, i get totally confused. Which isn't hard sometimes. It has bulk strings in plain,steel coated and so on. I just want a size .10, .12 .14, and .22 gauge strings. Could someone help me out. Thanks alot.Bill
Strings
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Thanks, i know they are not specifically made for Dulcimers. Just couldn't remember if it was Banjo or what other strings would work. Thanks againBill
Strings
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Hi Bill,String 'sets' for dulcimers aren't really strings that are make just for dulcimers. They are simply strings of a standard length (either ball end or loop end) that are selected to form a certain set of gauges that would be appropriate for a dulcimer. Such sets of strings are the same kind of strings they would use to put together a set of strings for the banjo- since they are the same length...just different gauges (thicknesses).Thus, if you know what gauges you like on your dulcimer, you can simply order like 6 or ten single strings of each thickness. It actually comes out much cheaper this way.Last time I got strings, I ordered a 'pack' of ten loop end banjo strings of the .010 gauge, for example. now I have plenty whenever I break a melody string! :) All these 'banjo' strings are the VERY SAME strings they use to put together sets of dulcimer strings.So you could order their single ball end banjo strings in whatever quantities you want, and just put together your own 'sets' of dulcimer strings. ;) TIP- order twice as many melody strings- they break most often.
Strings
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
Thanks Ron, i'll give them a holler.Bill
Strings
Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions
I tried juststrings.com, they do not carry ball end strings for Dulcimers. Anybody have a source for them.ThanksBill
updated by @bill-lewis: 06/08/16 09:24:05PM
Strumela do you see who are now members?
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
Thanks Dennis, it's sweet of you to post this.I too am happy to see dulcimer people of all different levels as members of our community here- running the gamut all the way from the very newest beginner to the most experienced professional musician.
I am finding that the tone and format here at Friends of the Mountain Dulcimer is enabling me to get to know people who for years were merely anonymous names to me before. As I get to know them more as people here, I find I am learning from them in many small unexpected ways. I bet a lot of members are finding this to be true for them as well.
It reminds me a bit of something I wrote in my noter blog back in April of this year, 2009:
"As I look back now over my own limited experiences and see them from the standpoint of having myself been a total beginner not very long ago, I realize that all the musical learning experiences in my journey, the moments and realizations that were most intense and profound, were not learned through books, workshops, & classes. Rather they were quiet and slow and small moments of musical sharing and learning and realizations. Perhaps I happened upon a beginner fiddler sitting alone under a tree scratching out a tune at some festival, and I stopped to play for just a minute with them- and wound up figuring out something amazing and simple in trying to play with them, something that I had never thought of before.
In trying to solve a problem on my own, I learned in a meaningful way...even if I couldn't solve the problem! Perhaps I played a few tunes with someone who was just learning banjo, or with a very old player, and they gave me some fascinating story from their life that forever effected the way I think about music for myself...or perhaps I said something silly about music that really impressed my 9 year old banjo student. And perhaps all these small moments of wonder made me somehow feel like the best musician in the whole world.
When I think about it, all the most memorable and enriching learning experiences in my life as a whole have been during quiet moments of listening or reflection or experimentation, or through non-rushed personal interaction with another person. I think of music as a living thing- it needs to be lovingly nourished, and it needs to breathe."
I too look forward to hearing more from the accomplished musicians we are honored to have as FOTMD members here. But I also look forward to hearing more from every single one of the 158 members here! Even the newest beginner players with absolutely no musical background at all are inspiring me and teaching me new things here every single day . Isn't it wonderful that we can all inspire and encourage each other? thank you Dennis. :)
updated by @strumelia: 02/21/16 09:12:48PM
Strumela do you see who are now members?
General mountain dulcimer or music discussions
WOW 158 members. Your idea of a home for Mountain Dulcimer folk has blossomed and attracted some of the biggest names in the dulcimer world to become members. RF and BF are two of thw biggest. Can't wait to hear what they have to say on this forum.
updated by @dennis-waldrop: 10/27/19 12:02:25PM
Our thanks to "Deputy Mo".
OFF TOPIC discussions
Good deputising there Rod.... however as a pacifist I am uncomfortable with the use of weaponry - couldn't we just have a couple of slavering Rottweilers to see off Spammers please!!??!!
Our thanks to "Deputy Mo".
OFF TOPIC discussions
Thanks for tending to The Bad Spammer, Rod! I hope Strumelia gives you another bullet next time she puts you in charge :-)I'll keep my eyes open for pictures of your new acquisition!Robin
Our thanks to "Deputy Mo".
OFF TOPIC discussions
Yeah the weekend was really good.. picked up a couple custom made noters thanks to harpmaker... a new to to me dulcimer... Jill in a post to me me called it the beast..lol... it was made by Gary Sager... It is a really deep bodied dulcimer with 5 strings.. tuned to D'A'DAd... so you can play 3 strings closest to you as normal, or just top 3 as a Bass, or middle 3 as a Baritone (A'DA - reverse Ionian), or who knows what else,, has been fun exploring the possibilities. I will start thread, when I get some pics...
Our thanks to "Deputy Mo".
OFF TOPIC discussions
Playing dulcimer is always a good reason! ;DHey how come you don't post a thread telling us about your new dulcimer- I didn't even know you had one! Rod Westerfield said:
Glad to have helped out, just sorry didn't catch it sooner but I was playing my dulcimer (new one that is)...
Our thanks to "Deputy Mo".
OFF TOPIC discussions
Glad to have helped out, just sorry didn't catch it sooner but I was playing my dulcimer (new one that is)... any time I still got a spare bullet left.... lol
Our thanks to "Deputy Mo".
OFF TOPIC discussions
I just wanted to give a public thank you to our diligent FOTMD moderator, member Rod Westerfield , otherwise known as "Deputy Mo" for his gracious assistance in overseeing our community here during the past two weekends while I was away from my computer on vacation.Thanks to Deputy Mo, things kept running smoothly while I was gone, minor every-day crisis on the site were attended to in a timely manner, and he even got to use his single bullet to kick an Evil Spammer from our midst this weekend.Three cheers for Deputy Mo!! :D
updated by @strumelia: 01/13/19 05:09:18PM
Randy Adams said:
Aha! SO pencil marks are a clue to your genius then Randy!!Fretless dulcimer works for me b/c I seldom play above the 4th or 5th fret....& almost never above the 7th....& play across the strings..with a noter....tuned DAd most of the time but also DAde, DAdf#, DF#Ad or DGBd.
It is difficult to play the melody up & down the melody string...starts sounding like one of them slide whistle things.....I need to bounce off open strings. I have ordered another fretless box dulcimer from Gary Sager that will have frets 4 thru 8 under the melody strings only and think it will open up new ways to play for me.
I actually prefer the sound & playability of a fretless dulcimer & with a little practice ...& a pencil mark or two.. : )...where the notes are comes automatically.
Fretless dulcimer works for me b/c I seldom play above the 4th or 5th fret....& almost never above the 7th....& play across the strings..with a noter....tuned DAd most of the time but also DAde, DAdf#, DF#Ad or DGBd.It is difficult to play the melody up & down the melody string...starts sounding like one of them slide whistle things.....I need to bounce off open strings. I have ordered another fretless box dulcimer from Gary Sager that will have frets 4 thru 8 under the melody strings only and think it will open up new ways to play for me.I actually prefer the sound & playability of a fretless dulcimer & with a little practice ...& a pencil mark or two.. : )...where the notes are comes automatically.
I suspect that frets were originally intended to make noting more precise without having to actually place your finger in exactly the same spot every time. For example, placement of your fretting finger between two frets in a space of roughly an inch or more will push the string down against the desired fret. The vibration of the string is also less muffled with the fret than it is without.On a fretless instrument (fretless banjo) or an instrument inwhich the frets may be serving as position markers only (dobro or slide guitar), one often hears the sliding sound of a finger or slide as it glides from a lower or higher pitch ending on the desired pitch. This is a different, yet very pleasing sound in its own right. But it is a little less precise especially for someone starting out on the instrument. Frets make the instrument a little easier to play in the beginning stages.Luthiers once and still do make fretless instruments with frets in-laid flush with the fingerboard to assist with finger placement. Although this becomes unnecessary with more experience, it can be very beneficial to someone in the early stages of learning to play a fretless instrument. The frets are simply an aid in getting your fingers in the right location. I suspect someone probably started by making marks on the fretboard of some ancient instrument at some point to help with finger location and this evolved into the frets as we know them today.Greg
Hi Cynthia,It's great fun and a learning experience to experiment on a fretless instrument. Likely you won't hit 'just the right spot' for a while, but if you approach it with a relaxed frame of mind and decide you don't have to sound perfect to have fun , well then you will get a lot out of it. You might not want to inflict your very first attempts upon others, though! ;D Cynthia said:
...the sound will just have a different quality than if there were a physical fret there...assuming you were able to hit the right spot,,, I have seen some youtubes of people with finger slides on cigar box instruments, and they look like a lot of fun.
Randy is a great fretless dulcimer player! He's also a great fretted dulcimer player! When he plays fretless, it's a very blues-y sound he gets out of his cigar boxes. His old-timey (and classical!) music is, I believe, generally played on a fretted dulcimer.I guess what I'm trying to get at is the idea that a fretless dulcimer and a fretted dulcimer are two different critters and each has inherent strong qualities and limitations.Robin
I'm in the "accuracy and repeatability of sounds with ease of use" camp. Anyone who has tried to fret a fiddle, or play a trombone or other "positional" instrument knows how much work it is to get those notes right every time (or even once!). Whether the frets are made from tied on gut (lutes and early guitars), carved from wood, bone or the carved out of the fretboard itself (early ukuleles and nordic fretted zithers, any sort of 'string stop' is better than none!
Roger L. Huffmaster said:
Yep that is it in a nutshell. A string with no frets is capable of producing any note within its range from one end (nut) to the other (bridge). In western music our ears are trained to hear whole notes (called tones in formal music theory) and half notes (semitones). (Other music traditions have quarter and eigth notes and maybe more- in Persian classical music they have 12 different steps between our half notes -i.e. 12 different versions of A ranging between A and A flat!!)Western music relies on these more limited steps in the infinity of musical possibility because it is easier to harmonise, and so it is important to play those half notes and whole notes accurately, especially when playing with others. So frets or position markers are an easy way to show the player where the notes are. The dulcimer does this the most simple way by having the frets positioned to give a "Do Re Mi" scale as you go up the frets, made up of whole notes and half notes. Most other more modern string instruments (guitar, banjo, mandolin etc) have their frets laid out in semitones rather than a pattern of tones and semitones.I used to play double bass, which is fretless,and the hardest thing was learning all the left hand positions, and the precise distances between my fingers in order to get the semitones accurately.Of course they get closer together the further up the neck towards the bridge you go, so I had to learn how to make the necessary adjustments to my hand position as I moved to higher positions. Frankly, it was much harder work than the guitar and I never progressed very far. Besides, it aint the most portable of instruments to just casually take along to a party or jam session!Frets are not necessary, but I do believe it makes an instrument easier to play, plus the fretboard lives much longer if the strings are not constantly wearing it from contact.
Roger
I bought several Intelli Chromatic IMT-500 clip-on tuners fairly cheaply off Ebay and am happy with them. Hunter is correct that if they have trouble picking up a note, they don't with the harmonic. I find with my guitar it can almost never pick up the low E string, but it has no trouble with the harmonic.I used to use a Sabine tuner but never bought the pick-up attachment, so I needed silence to tune. It works great if you are plugged in, for you can just put in in between two chords and follow the lights even while playing. But for acoustic instruments it really didn't function too well.I doubt, however, these cheap little clip-ons are as accurate as the more expensive Korg. It would be nice if Consumer Reports or someone would do a comparison for us.D.T. Hunter Walker said:
I found this too, however, it works like a charm if you use a harmonic.
David Swanson said:I'm surprised no one has mentioned the little Intelli or Tune Tech clip-on tuners that seem so popular. I have a TT500 and while I prefer my Korg, the TuneTech is very convenient. The Korg works great but the cord is a pain. The display on the TT seems to be slower, and for some reason it is less sensitive to the A string than either D strings (tuned DAdd).
I really really like my little Profile PT-2700 . Just works. Can work in either clip or microphone mode, and is adjustable in what it considers an A, but it's really simple to use.
The Korg CA-30 has an accessory clip-on. The GA 30 has trouble because it's made for the dynamics of the guitar rather than a range of smaller instruments.