Forum Activity for @bob

This is a really interesting discussion that got me thinking a lot. What skills does one need to master in order to progress from one 'level' to the next... Made me remember times I was asked for the music or tabs to a tune I had played on my dulcimer or Scottish Small Pipes. When I reply with an apology, that I can't help because I cant read music or tabs yet and only play by ear, I somehow feel inadequate.

I believe it's possible to master some skills as an intermediate player but also lack some of the skills of a rank beginner, at least in my case. Most, or a great many beginners learn from written music I think. I never learned to do that, even though i know the importance in it. (It's hard to commit to that when there's so many other neat and exciting things I need and want to do!) Some solace that, within the Irish music tradition, according to some quite renown musicians, most learning is done by ear, "Lugging it" as Matt Seattle (Scottish composer and musician) calls it. I guess it comes down to skill and confidence.

Anyway, if there was a definitive check list for player 'levels', I don't think I would want to see it.

The key part of @terry-wilson's comment below is the practice part.  The fact is that if you can sing (not well, necessarily, but hitting something close to the right notes) then you can play by ear.  If your brain can make the connection between the interval between two notes and the right amount to open or stretch your vocal chords, then it can certain make the connection between intervals between notes and distance on the fretboard. After all, on the fretboard, you have not only your brain making a theoretical connection, but the feel of your fingers and the vision of your eyes.  So playing an instrument by ear should be three times easier than singing.  The only difference? Most of us have been singing our whole lives, so we have decades of experience.  Too few of us practice playing by ear.

And one problem with tablature is that it forces you to look at it instead of looking at the instrument.  So it actively sabotages your ability to play by ear.

I have no doubt that there are a lot of people who right now are unable to play by ear. But that doesn't mean they can't do it. They just haven't tried enough and practiced it.  Perhaps because I am self taught on most of the instruments I play (I took some guitar lessons the summer after third grade and piano lessons around that same time) I am amazed that people are afraid to play without tablature, without someone else telling them exactly what to do.  Just put the instrument on your lap.  Play something.  If it sounds good, do it again. If it doesn't, try something else.  Don't be too ambitious, just try to find the melody for all those nursery rhymes we learned as kids.  You'll get those melodies in a short amount of time and will be able to figure out more complex ones later on.  

On Monday I was teaching a student a song that she requested to learn.  So I wrote up tablature for her. But she was struggling so much looking at the tablature that at one point I took the tab away and forced her to look at the fretboard.  She protested that she can only play with tablature.  But the problem was that although she knew the melody, she was getting distracted by all the information on the tab.  When I forced her to stop thinking about fret numbers and note duration and just to play the song she had in her head, she was able to learn it much faster.  In this case the tab was a hindrance to her learning the song. But even when that's not the case, using tab does not aid in the development of our ability to play by ear and may even sabotage it by forcing us to look at the music instead of our instrument.

Terry, ages ago I gave away my harmonica and the book I bought as I just couldn't get it.  Wish I could as it's a small very portable instrument.

My 2 cents: And I've stated this before, as it worked for me. If you want to play the dulcimer by ear then do the following : Buy yourself a D or C ten hole harmonica, practice for 30 min a day for three months, and bingo, you begin a new life The Harmonica is a "by ear" musical instrument. Put in honest practice time for three months, and then without fanfare, a still small voice speaks to you; "Wow, I'm playing this dang thing by ear." I don't need harmonica tab, just know the tune in your head. Don't even attempt to play the lower or higher octave. Just concentrate on the middle octave, beginning at hole four. Same scale as dulcimer. Do it!!! Spend $25.00 and change your musical life.

I once wrote here about "First language", meaning in this case instrument training, influencing you.  In my case it was piano and I am indeed chained to sheet music.  Ionian tuning has let me develop my ear a bit, but ear training and (at least in my instrument playing) memory is a gift, or at least a skill, I don't possess.  I can play something over and over and maybe do most of it without looking while the piece is actively being worked on for performance, but if I come back to it after some time later, I couldn't begin to play it without working on it.  It may take me less time the second time, but it's not like singing if I know the words.  

I sometimes say I'm "math impaired" as numbers don't stay with me.  I believe this is somehow part of my brain linkage.  Perhaps it can be developed, but I've never been able to do it.  This is why I say I'm not a musician.

FWIW my memory works pretty much the same way.  I exercise it like crazy with theatre, but once I finish a show I couldn't begin to give you the lines without reviewing them.  It's also why, as a librarian, I gave great service taking people to the numbers on the shelf, because I don't remember them very well.

I whole-heartedly agree, Ken. The same goes for people who can only play with sheet music. Tab & sheet music are useful in SMALL doses. After that it becomes your ball and chain.

It's like training wheels on a bike. Sure you can keep your training wheels on but you'll never be a good rider.

Frank Ledgerwood told me stories of people who came to him to improve their playing and he would ask them to play their favorite song so he could evaluate what they needed. They would tell him they couldn't because they didn't have the tab...for their favorite song?

I often get asked how I developed my style and it was by just experimenting. I learned my instrument by making up tunes. Put away the tab and just spend some time with your dulcimer. Sight reading tab and music are two great skills to have but I'll take knowing my instrument any day.

I might not know a song but in a few beats I can jump in and jam with anyone because I know how to make the sound that I'm hearing in my head. I may not know know I'm playing a C9 chord but I know the sound I am after and how to get there. 

I have considered teaching a workshop on how to write tunes with no music theory or tab, and it will be a beginner class because if you can fret and strum your instrument, if you know what sounds good to you, then you have the ability to write your own songs. The biggest impediment is people thinking they can't do it so they don't even try.

Good for you Sandi!!  Maybe keep it small/do-able, so you don't wind up putting it off.

Terry, I neglected to mention the large portion of potatoe chips though.  heheh Yes I grew the cukes- their seeds are a bit large tho...will try a different variety next year.

Dusty, I like mozz (and balsamic) vinegar on tomatoes sometimes too!   mmmm!

Marsha, I saw this happen recently with my husband at our folklore group.  I do understand as I've felt intimidated by them because there's some darned good musicians in the group.  He can play banjo in the background at my Civil War programs and earn raves.  I also stop him being in the background to have him play the melody of "Old Rosin the Beau" for my singing the Civil War abolition song "Roll on the Liberty Ball" and later a bit of it for "Lincoln and Liberty, Too."  He knows the song and does it well. 

We had a theme of Cities for our folklore group's song swap and he wanted to sing and play it for the song "Denver."   It's to that same tune and he can do it in his sleep.  He blew it, not just a little bit, he got thoroughly spooked.  Don't think I'll ever get him to try playing there again. 

O.k. I make myself play there.  When I said "I've felt intimidated", that past tense isn't true as I still do.  I've blown it there at times.  It's good for me to set those goals.  Just hope someday he'll try it again and I keep trying to help him understand.

You are absolutely right Dusty. I need to work on keeping a happy face when I make a mistake. It seems that the difficulty of doing so is in direct coralation with who the audience is.... old folks, kids and family, no problem because they don't even know when I make a mistake, but on a stage, different story. I loose concentration and bingo, ooops!

Day two of workin' out!  WHOOP!  WHOOP!

Musicians (including dulcimer players) make mistakes all the time. I'm sure Yo Yo Ma makes mistakes daily.  How often you make mistakes does not differentiate a beginner from an advanced player.

But an important skill to learn is how to make a mistake and keep going, keeping the flow of the music.  If you make a mistake but skip right over and keep going, the mistake is gone, off into the ether, and even if anyone noticed, they forget about it right away. But if you make a mistake and then stop and start over, or utter some choice exclamations (as I am wont to do) or pause for a moment with an unhappy face, then you really look like a beginner who can't carry a tune.  And what's more, once you learn how to continue playing after making a mistake, then the fear of making mistakes goes away.  Magic!

Beautiful tomatoes. Our tomatoes didn't do so well this year. On the small side. Lisa, did you grow the cucumbers too? Some friends gave us 2 quart bags of the largest blueberries I think I have ever seen. Sweet. Oh my yes. Good for you, Lisa. Your goodies are much better for you than my meal of deep fried Bluegills last night. Then leftovers today. You gained 6 months of life, while I lost a year. Oh well.

Regarding the discussion of "when you can consider yourself a musician", I sometimes think I play like an Oriental Rug...there's always a mistake somewhere in it.  (O.k. so maybe the audience doesn't know -- if I'm lucky.)  My standard reply to the obvious mistakes is "Now you know why I'm a storyteller and not a musician."

Those tomatoes look wonderful.    The woman across the street from us has a huge garden and no one to feed, so we get all hers.

Never heard of taxi, though.

I prefer some fresh mozzarella and basil to sour cream any day.

Oooh... it's later than usual in the season due to our late Spring and then that drought too for a while, but...

We're finally hitting out tomato season!!  This year is a first in that our garden tomato eating is actually overlapping our blueberry picking.  This is what we wait for all year long... the blueberries and the magnificent tomatoes.

Here was our lunch today on the new screen porch, also with cucumbers from the garden.  The yellow is a tomato called "Taxi".   Yeah I probably went a little overboard on the sour cream, but hey.  

 tomato-cucumber-lunch-July-2018.jpg - 756KB

I just returned from the Dulcimer U workshop in Cullowhee, NC where my main morning class was Tull Glazener's upper intermediate. He taught us how to take any music score, transpose it to key of D (or what ever key you want), then write the full chord tab for it. He also taught us how to then write other parts to do it as ensemble. No previous knowledge of music theory was necessary, nor did we have to be able to play by ear.

it was an intense week, but I came out of there with a whole new world opened to me. And I am so excited now to know that if I can't find tab for a song I like, it won't be a problem.

I would have to say "Come By the Hills". It's an Irish traditional tune that I first heard played by Celtic Thunder on one of their CDs. I think because I live in the mountains that it really speaks to me.

But I also LOVE "River" too that several of you mentioned. Put the two together and you would need a whole box of tissues to handle the tears.

I could open another can of worms by asking when you can consider yourself a musician :)

I find myself looking at a number of lessons on Dulcimer School for Intermediate and Advanced. They may be above my current skill level, but they give me an idea where the gaps are in my knowledge. Sometimes, it's something I've never even heard of. I know musicians use riffs to fill in a melody, but I'd never considered learning a few to add to what I play. I had no idea there was such a thing in the dulcimer world. That's the tough thing about being a beginner when you aren't taking lessons from someone in person. Sometimes it's something you can pick up from watching someone else play, even if it's just a video.

If any of you are Patreon supporters of Bing Futch, you see that he has just posted materials from his 3-Day Intensive workshops at Evart.  He is doing separate workshops for the beginner, intermediate, and advanced levels.

I just glanced at the material and haven't watched the videos yet, but so far I don't really see much difference between the intermediate and advanced stuff.  He teaches chords in the intermediate level, but he also teaches crosspicking technique there, which in my mind is more challenging than the scales he teaches at the advanced level.  In the arrangements themselves, it appears the advanced stuff is played faster and has more eighth notes, but the intermediate arrangements looked pretty advanced to me.

It's interesting to see his take on these categories. At some point when my work lightens up I'll take a harder look at that material.

I've said before that I don't see any use for these categories other than providing guidance at festivals about what workshops might be appropriate for individual attendees. Perhaps a more useful discussion would be what skills or techniques people have found useful and encourage others to develop.  Maybe an idea for a different discussion . . . 

Thanks Geckostar97 -- Wish I could be credited with the design, but an old boy named Jacob Gross made two round-bottom zithers back in the 1860s -- one fretted, and one bowed.  And his were based on the earlier fretted zithers of the Moravian settlers in PA.  

I may tackle the bowed version next as it's a bit simpler.  Right now I'm staining and sanding and staining again the fretted one, trying to get the color at least close to the original...

The trapezoid and its close cousin, the Tennessee music box, have the potential for great instruments.  Here are two of my recent builds where I added rounded corners and a waist.  As with all of my recent builds, they feature a bowed back and a floating fretboard.  Both instruments have strong voices.  The larger, 27" VSL, twangy due to stiffer bracing and the shorter, 24" VSL, more mellow.  The sound boards were from wood recovered from a house renovation.  I believe they are white cedar.

 two dulcis 7-31-18.jpg - 198KB

Thanks for the link. I agree with Ken.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

The one on the "front page"?  That's just a simple trapezoid-shaped dulcimer; a number of us make them.  Some are wider, like the one Stephen has, some are narrower like the attached photo of a museum replica I'm building which was made around the time of the Civil War. 

The body shape comes from the Pennsylvania zithers which came over from Germany in the late 1500s/early 1600s.  

I don't know the maker of Stephen's; you'd have to ask him.

 All Glued Up.JPG - 58KB

I'm too lazy to search through all of Stephen's videos to find the dulcimer. Do you have a link to the video?

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Nah, I'm intermediate.

This is a good discussion and I remember it being discussed several months ago.  After reading Dusty's Berkley descriptions back then, I moved my rank up to Intermeditate. I still make mistakes while I'm playing but I can cover a lot of them up, too. Ditto everything Terry Wilson said.  I guffawed out loud when I read Skip's description of Beg, Inter, Adv.  Skip, so you have TAB for Flight of the Bumblebee?  Dulcinina

Beginner-  "What's this?"

Intermediate- "I got most of the notes/chords in most of the tunes today".

Advanced- "Lets play 'Flight of the Bumblebee'".

Ken, I'm not ready now to get a new dulcimer with the flexi-frets, but I would like to someday.  I did play one once, though.  I think you are probably right that inserting and removing the frets is not so easy that you'd be putting them in and taking them off in the middle of a jam session.  But it's not that hard either, at least not with the little tool Dwain supplies. I was surprised that the slots were not really noticeable by feel when the frets were not there.  But I only play with my fingers. I wonder if the "empty" slots would affect a noter sliding up and down.  Maybe we can have @elvensong answer these questions when he gets his.

Dusty -- I'll be interested to hear your take on the flexi-frets.  I've heard from others that removing/replacing frets is not as easy/simple as it is made to sound.

Lucky you! That'll be quite an instrument.

Dwain is building a Concert Grand for me with flexi-frets. Brilliant idea! Opens up the entire dulcimer fret possibilities on one instrument. I'm hoping to have mine in time for Walnut Valley. 

I'm joining this conversation late, but I do have one suggestion: flexifrets . Flexifrets are frets that can be inserted and taken out by the player.  I might not want to buy a dulcimer with a 4+ fret, but if it were a flexifret, I might be curious. I would still, however, want a 1+, so if you install a flexifret for the 4+, you should also do it for the 1+

Incidentally, Paul Furnas only plays Renaissance and early music, and he claims that even in DAd, a 4+ would be more useful for him than a 1+ or even a 6+.  He brought a diatonic dulcimer to a luthier to add the 4+ fret, but the luthier assumed he misspoke and put on a 6+ instead! (Paul ended up selling that dulcimer.)

Anyway, I've been thinking about getting a dulcimer with a true diatonic fretboard but then adding a flexifret for every half fret, so the dulcimer could function as truly diatonic, fully chromatic, or anything in between.

I would have no idea how to rank myself or anyone else and I think it's important to point out that there is no perfect way to define dulcimer abilities.  I am sure I know a whole lot more chords than does Ken, but he understands modes in ways I never will.  The skills and knowledge for different styles of play are simply not comparable. Linda Brockinton one of the best fingerpicking dulcimer players around, yet her prowess with a flat pick or quill is pretty limited.

I don't think it is worth working on a skill just because you think you want to advance to some other level of dulcimer playing. Just watch and listen to the people who play in the style that most interests you and keep trying to improve.  That's all that any of us can do.

The only purpose for formal definitions of levels is at festivals to help attendees find the right workshops for their interests and skill levels.  But that's it.  They do not really define objective, measurable skills that everyone develops over time.

Lisa and Strumalia, Thank you for you responses. This site has lots of good info from people in the trenches. I am thinking of the 1+ and 8+ now considering that I might start experimenting with the mixo. tunings.

Oops, I answered off the top of my head.  It's true the 4+ is relatively the same fret as the 1+ for your tuning.  But I forgot about how the rest of the scale maps out.  Today I got out a dulcimer and studied the modal charts here .  Assuming my poor muddled brain has it right this time, if you want to play a Dorian scale starting at the 3rd fret you will need both a 4+ fret and an 8+ fret.   

Many tunes don't use the 7th note of the scale, and it's pretty easy to bend a note in the middle of the fretboard, so you could play a lot of Dorian tunes without the 8+ fret.  Still, the 4+ fret is not as magical for CGG tuning as the 1+ is for CGC.  I see several paths forward depending on where you want to go: 

1) You could order a dulcimer with 1+, 4+ and 8+ frets (6+ optional).  This dulcimer would be specialized for Ionian 1-5-5 tunings like CGG.  You might never be able to re-sell it, but it would be quite the conversation piece. 

2) You could get a dulcimer with 1+, 6+ and 8+ frets, which is not uncommon.  Play it in CGG and see what happens.  You'd always have the option to re-tune CGC.  It's not your favorite tuning, but CGC would give you Ionian (with 6+ fret), Mixolydian (no extra frets) and Dorian (with 1+ fret) ready to go.  Not Aeolian though: for that you'd also need... here it comes... the 4+ fret!

3) Get a chromatic fretboard.  Beyond a certain point it is easier to have all the frets and be done with it. 

4) Give up on extra frets and re-tune for Dorian mode (CGF). 

5) Experiment and see which extra frets work for you.  Straighten out a paper clip and use masking tape to hold it in place where the extra fret should be.  A total kludge, but it can be fun. 

I play using 2) and 3) and 4) above on different dulcimers, in different playing styles, as the mood strikes.

I don't know what I am. But I think, from 0-100, I am perhaps a 57. Yeah, I like 57. In 6 years, never been to a work shop. Jammed with other dulcimer players two times. Have never ever much thought about hammerons....and the other nifty skills mentioned. I still use tab some, but also play by ear. Use two octaves regularly. Love to strum. Play a lot with one and two strings. Have introduced  dulcimer to adults and children. Even when I was a 30 rank. So why a lowly 57? You might ask. Well, most every time there is a new video posted, I am faced with the truth. I KNOW SO LITTLE AND HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO. If the many members , for example, like Mark and Dusty and Christine, weren't so doggone good, then maybe I could be a 63.