Forum Activity for @dusty

Dusty Turtle
@dusty
10/07/25 01:50:54PM
1,838 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Well let me close the circle.  @Barnjam started this thread because he found it difficult to fret the middle string, so he sought a longer dulcimer with extended range on each individual string. If you click the link to Ron Gibson's "extended range" dulcimer that @Marko provides, you will see that the strings are very close together and there is little room on the outside of the melody and bass string.  My hands are not that large, but I would find the fretboard on that dulcimer to be insufficiently wide.  Folkcraft also created a 5-string dulcimer called the MaxDAD, which was basically a standard and a bass dulcimer together.  It was tuned DADAD (not sure how to indicate the octaves there).  But their first version of it did not work precisely because the strings were too close together.  So they widened the fretboard to make it more comfortable to play.  One reason I don't own any McSpaddens is that despite the consistently high quality of the tone, the fretboard is so narrow that if you bend the bass or melody string, you often move the string off the end of the fretboard.

What this demonstrates, I think, is that the wideness of the fretboard and the distance between strings is an important variable, perhaps more important that VSL even, and yet it is one that gets little attention either by builders or by players.

I don't know how practical it might be to build a longer dulcimer to add more frets and perhaps get an extra octave on each string, but the issue @Barnjam is dealing with is a common one that should be addressed by builders and players as we customize our instruments.

Nate
@nate
10/07/25 01:46:23PM
440 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Strumelia:

Does that "Stringjoy" Tension Calculator tell you when one of its suggestions would likely result in a string that breaks, or a string that is too slack?  I doubt it includes such useful info. I suspect that like any non-human, all it will inform you of is what numbers are correct for the calculation.

 
That's a good point. In general I've found that low gauge strings tend to have tighter constraints on how high the tension can go, but 13lb seems like it would be manageable. Most of the stuff I've read online says that all string gauges can be brought to a similar tension before breaking if they are made of the same material, but I'm skeptical of that. Eventually I'll have to find out for myself next time i go to the string store.
Nate
@nate
10/07/25 01:42:05PM
440 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Skip:

I'm a bit confused by all of this. Fourteen frets is two diatonic octaves, D to D or A to A or whatever, regardless of the VSL. A longer VSL [fretboard] just increases the distance between frets. It doesn't 'add' any any notes. 

 
The way I interpreted the original question is that he was asking about extending the range of frets in a way that adds extra low notes at the nut end while maintaining diatonic frets for the key of D. Like tuning the instrument DAE and having a fret layout that still contains all the notes of the D major scale starting on E. It's an interesting idea and I've seen a couple of old dulcimers that seemed to be doing something similar, and I might have to try it eventually just for the novelty.
Strumelia
@strumelia
10/07/25 11:59:01AM
2,389 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

You may as well try to trademark the name "Black Cat".
(But I shouldn't have veered as far off Barnjam's topic as I did. Will try to behave now.)  winky

Skip
@skip
10/06/25 11:39:38PM
386 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@Dusty, there are 3 octaves across all three strings, 0-6 on the bass then 0-14 [DAd] in the melody [and various combos using the middle string]. Three on one string is something else, probably huge to be usable.sun

Dusty Turtle
@dusty
10/06/25 10:59:12PM
1,838 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@Skip, you are correct that the way most luthiers make their dulcimers, a longer VSL just means larger spaces in between fret wire, for the fretboard is usually fixed at a little more than two octaves (most have 17, 18, or 19 frets).  However, there is no reason that has to be the case.  A dulcimer with a long enough VSL could be configured for 3 full, usable octaves. 

I personally would have no use for such a dulcimer, but it is theoretically possible to build one.

This is an example of how different our approaches to playing and therefore our design preferences can be.  One reason I love my McCafferty dulcimer is that it has only 14 frets but an extended strum hollow, allowing the right hand a more comfortable angle and more room to play.  I also had the luthier bring the strings closer together for me, for I find it easier to play fast when the strings are closer together.  And the 25" scale length means I can fret chords with ease.

@Barnjam clearly has different needs than I.  He is seeking a dulcimer with a longer VSL to accommodate an extra octave and greater space between the strings to accommodate his large hands.

Skip
@skip
10/06/25 10:49:59PM
386 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I forgot to say you would need 17 frets, not counting 1/2 frets to get 2 octaves A [low] to D [high] on one string.


updated by @skip: 10/06/25 10:51:37PM
barnjam
@barnjam
10/06/25 09:59:09PM
15 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I've found the experts! I'm impressed with all the good ideas and knowledge amongst you. I find this musical journey to be quite fascinating. There are so many factors that can affect the music we play.

Skip
@skip
10/06/25 09:46:00PM
386 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I'm a bit confused by all of this. Fourteen frets is two diatonic octaves, D to D or A to A or whatever, regardless of the VSL. A longer VSL [fretboard] just increases the distance between frets. It doesn't 'add' any any notes. A wider fretboard increases space between strings, but so can adjusting the middle string closer to the bass string. My recommendation would be to get something with a long VSL and adjust the string spacing between the middle and bass string. A nut set up for single or double melody strings has a wider space between these two strings built in [usually about 1/8"] by removing the inner melody string.


updated by @skip: 10/06/25 09:50:53PM
Strumelia
@strumelia
10/06/25 06:47:40PM
2,389 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@barnjam ...remember you don't 'have to' play in the key of D, either. And having a chromatic means you don't have to worry about the usual diatonic 'gaps' in the fretboard when choosing your tunings and keys. 

Strumelia
@strumelia
10/06/25 06:42:05PM
2,389 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Nate:

The "stringjoy string tension calculator" says that a 35" VSL tuned to D4 with a 0.007 gauge string (lowest Ive seen in an ernie ball pack) will have ~13 lb of tension. 


 

Yikes.  I once started using .009 strings to tune to dulcimer high D (D4) on a 28" scale. The strings tuned to the note ok, but they were so thin that they broke all too often often while playing. So I went back to using .010 for my melody strings to tune to high D.  But i can't even imagine doing that with a 35" scale length (!) and a .007 string. 
Does that "Stringjoy" Tension Calculator tell you when one of its suggestions would likely result in a string that breaks, or a string that is too slack?  I doubt it includes such useful info. I suspect that like any non-human, all it will inform you of is what numbers are correct for the calculation.  BUT... if anyone could actually do that experiment Nate, it would be YOU!  worthy  grin

barnjam
@barnjam
10/06/25 06:41:29PM
15 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

More good information to consider. I think some combination of DAA tuning with a wider fretboard would be the best solution, without getting into expensive custom builds. I appreciate your time and knowledge on this.

Nate
@nate
10/06/25 05:25:49PM
440 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Strumelia could you please elaborate on that?

The "stringjoy string tension calculator" says that a 35" VSL tuned to D4 with a 0.007 gauge string (lowest Ive seen in an ernie ball pack) will have ~13 lb of tension. 

Strumelia
@strumelia
10/06/25 05:00:23PM
2,389 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Another factor when making the fretboard longer and longer is that, depending on what notes you want to tune the strings to, you will have to choose string gauges that will enable you to tune to those notes on that length of fretboard. The trick is that although you'll have a range of choices by choosing various gauges, the choices are not unlimited as to how heavy(low) and how thin(high) you can go for a particular length of fretboard and choice of open string note. You can't for example tune to a dulcimer high D on a fretboard that is 35" long... the required string would be so thin it would snap under tension long before being tuned to high d. The opposite is true as well (trying to tune to very low notes on a very short fretboard... the required string would be impossibly fat and slack).

barnjam
@barnjam
10/06/25 03:11:44PM
15 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Yes, I do prefer to only play on the melody string although I have fun playing melody on the bass string sometimes. I have a chromatic Weissenborn, and I enjoy it, but it forces me to think more. My diatonic dulcimers are fun to play because my precision can be lower, with less frets. Thanks Nate. All great ideas.

Nate
@nate
10/06/25 01:32:38PM
440 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I think an important question is: do you prefer to only play on the melody string, or would you prefer to be able to fret all three strings?
If you're only fretting the melody string out of compromise, then a wider fretboard could solve your problem.

A dulcimer does not have all the frets of the chromatic scale, which is why the major scale must start on either the open string for DAd (1-5-8) or the 3rd fret for DAA (1-5-5) if you want to have all the notes in the major scale. For this reason, if you wanted to tune the melody string lower than A and still get all the notes of the D major scale, you would have to add extra frets. For example, if you tuned the instrument DAG, there would be no fret for C#, unless you add a 3.5 fret. You could potentially set the fret layout to allow your melody string to be tuned to any note, though it would look strange for some. Or with a chromatic instrument, you could just tune it any old way and always have all the needed frets for your D major scale.

It's possible to tune the melody string lower and add extra frets, but could lead to it's own problems, like if you wanted to play melody on the bass string, your melody string would no longer be a harmonious drone to accompany it.

I see that the dulcimer you showed a photo of has two full octaves of frets plus 3 frets of the third octave. If you have large fingers, it will definitely be difficult to try to fret in those teeny tiny spaces, and if you add more frets to the high end, the gaps between them only get smaller.

The longer the VSL, the more space you'll have between frets in that third octave, but that can only help so much.





updated by @nate: 10/06/25 01:35:04PM
barnjam
@barnjam
10/06/25 11:05:33AM
15 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

That makes perfect sense. The open string note is the lowest a string can be. I'm overthinking it for sure. The solution then is to tune in DAA and add more frets to the upper neck. A larger dulcimer body with a longer neck and wider fretboard would help make the spaces. THANK YOU!

Strumelia
@strumelia
10/06/25 10:48:14AM
2,389 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

barnjam:

Strumelia, your suggestion of arching the fingers is excellent, and I will try to improve on that.


I wrote a blog post on the angling of our fretting fingers that elaborates on that subject a little more- you might find something helpful in it:
https://dulcimer-noter-drone.blogspot.com/2012/07/lazy-fingers.html


barnjam: Yes, I'd like to play notes that dip below the "home" note of D on the melody string. I did try DAA tuning and I enjoyed the ability to hit those lower notes, but I was then limited on the higher octave.
 

You can't really have it both ways. If a string is tuned to D, you cannot play notes lower than that D (except if you start by playing in the higher octave, as you said).  Adding inches to the fretboard and some additional frets near the nut will not change anything, if you continue to tune your melody string to D .
Here is a very simple explanation of how an 'extended neck' Pete Seeger type long-necked (w/extra frets) banjo works- I find it helpful: https://www.deeringbanjos.com/pages/understanding-longneck-banjos?srsltid=AfmBOoo4bvXWt71VmGRjwkBHRjKQaD0g1EMhYPkE42R3hx7m9mR8bc1i  (banjos are most typically tuned to play in the key of G, and Pete frequently made use of capos to play/sing in various keys on his longneck banjo)

Truthfully, I might be misunderstanding your request or your concept here. The bottom line though is that on any string, you cannot play notes lower than that particular string is tuned to... no matter how long the neck is or how many additional frets you put on.

John Pettreemusic
@john-petry
10/06/25 10:24:54AM
83 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Sorry....couldn't help myself....






Plastic surgery to make fingers smaller typically involves procedures like liposuction or skin excision to reduce excess tissue. It's important to consult with a qualified plastic surgeon to discuss your specific goals and options.   plasticsurgery.org   Wikipedia


Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
10/06/25 10:22:15AM
1,303 posts

A question about intonating a dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Mike, I'm glad to hear that you have your dulcimer playing well again and happy that we were helpful. Enjoy playing both of your dulcimers. 

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."


updated by @ken-longfield: 10/06/25 10:22:42AM
barnjam
@barnjam
10/06/25 09:35:20AM
15 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks for the responses, all. John, that "Uncle Eddie" is insanely cool. That's a great suggestion on the long neck banjo. I've reached out to John Knopf with these questions. Dusty, agreed and that is exactly what my Milford Blevins model has (in order to accommodate 8 strings). Strumelia, your suggestion of arching the fingers is excellent, and I will try to improve on that. Regarding your questions: 1) Yes, on both a longer and wider fretboard for finger space and tonal range 2) Yes, I'd like to play notes that dip below the "home" note of D on the melody string. I did try DAA tuning and I enjoyed the ability to hit those lower notes, but I was then limited on the higher octave. I'm looking for both sides of the spectrum.

My primary concert dulcimers are modified to be loud. Both my converted guitar/dulcimer, Milford B. model, and J. McAnulty Weissenborn are very resonant even without an amp. I've added drop A & D strings for deep bass and extra resonance. I use Fender heavy triangle picks and higher gauge strings as I tend to strum and pick aggressively. I've attached a few pics to help illustrate the set-ups.


Dulcimers_01a.jpg Dulcimers_01a.jpg - 153KB

updated by @barnjam: 10/06/25 10:02:45AM
Wally Venable
@wally-venable
10/06/25 09:06:14AM
127 posts

A question about intonating a dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I'm not at all surprised.

All instruments need to be properly "set up," and this is often left to the retail seller. Amateur builders often don't know how to do the simple adjustments. Many of the string instruments in charity stores are "throwaways" that people got as a gift or as so-called bargains which only need a proper set-up.

Strumelia
@strumelia
10/06/25 08:44:49AM
2,389 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

One added thing I'd like to just check on-
you say you have trouble with bumping into other strings when you fret and slide with your "large hands", yet your dulcimer has a larger than usual fretboard already.
Are you fretting with the bony TIPS of your fingers, with your hand arched up over the strings, or are you fretting with the fatty PADS of your fingers, with your hand held more horizontally as though you are typing on a laptop?  Fretting with te very tips of the fingers can make all the difference in the world when it comes to getting clean sound and not bumping into other strings or muffling your own notes while cutting off resonating notes.


updated by @strumelia: 10/06/25 08:48:43AM
Strumelia
@strumelia
10/06/25 08:40:54AM
2,389 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I'm a little confused here and i have questions. You say you like to play the melody mostly all on your melody string while occasionally plucking the middle string, yet you also say you like to play melody on the lower string. 
Are you simply wanting a longer and wider fretboard, and will continue to tune to DAd and play in the key of D?...are you just seeking extra space for your large fingers?
OR... are you wanting to play notes that dip below the 'home' note of D on your melody string, as in tuning to DAA for example?
From your question, I'm not really sure of your goal.

Mikekoz
@mikekoz
10/06/25 08:15:46AM
8 posts

A question about intonating a dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I got home yesterday and had a burst of energy and filed down the string slots on my dulcimer "nut!". It was a complete success! I started with the middle A string since that was the one that was the most off and then did the others. My dulcimer sounds great now! grin  The only thing I forgot to do was to put a little bit of graphite in each slot, but I can do that anytime. I want to thank all of you for the help you gave me with this. If I have any other questions or issues with my dulcimers I know where to come!

Dusty Turtle
@dusty
10/06/25 02:33:45AM
1,838 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Another possibility would be a wider fretboard with more space in between strings.  Just a thought.

John Pettreemusic
@john-petry
10/06/25 01:01:55AM
83 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Sending a "long vsl" chart borrowed from Folkcraft...31 3/8 VSL. Is this what you envision? It would take some time to do the math on string gauge etc....To think of what that length looks like, picture a Pete Seger long neck banjo. All you have to do is remove the resonator and slap the remains on an hourglass body....voila!

This other fella on FOTMD may be able to help....looks like he builds some big honkin' dulcimores....


longvsl.png longvsl.png - 447KB
barnjam
@barnjam
10/05/25 04:13:37PM
15 posts

Extended Range Dulcimer


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

This is a question regarding dulcimer build limitations. Is it possible to make an extended range dulcimer? I am envisioning a longer fretboard that would allow for several more frets on the lower end. This would allow the player to stay on the melody string for the low and high octave, without crossing over to the middle string, in DAD tuning.

I am a player with large hands, which makes it difficult to play the middle string without hitting other strings. So far, the Milford Blevins Dulcimer has the largest fretboard I’ve used. It is both wider and longer than a standard dulcimer. For me, that means my fat fingers have plenty of space to slide. I wish it were a tad longer so that I could get the best of DAA and DAD tuning, allowing me to walk down the fretboard on the melody string alone. I play melody exclusively on the first D string, with an occasional pluck of the open A middle string. The middle and lower strings I use for droning rhythms, or to play bass melody.

Thank you for any responses.

Mike


updated by @barnjam: 10/09/25 10:00:06AM
Old Dawg
@old-dawg
10/01/25 07:11:18AM
13 posts

Listing A Dulcimer For Sale


Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

It seems fine now. Thank you. I appreciate it.

Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
09/30/25 06:07:27PM
1,303 posts

Anybody familiar with dulcimers made by James Goodall?


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I am not familiar with dulcimers made by James Goodall. He seems to have a good following in the guitar world. It appears that his son Luke has taken over the guitar business and continues to build guitars in Sparta, TN. My guess is that any mountain dulcimers he made were from the beginning of his career as a luthier.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Strumelia
@strumelia
09/30/25 05:52:16PM
2,389 posts

Listing A Dulcimer For Sale


Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

BTW the whole problem was the size of the images- that was also causing the text to stretch in order to be the same width as the giant pictures. Once i downsized the pix, the text fixed itself.

Strumelia
@strumelia
09/30/25 05:48:24PM
2,389 posts

Listing A Dulcimer For Sale


Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

I reduced the photo sizes and deleted the additional threads...  see if it's ok now:

https://fotmd.com/forums/forum/for-saleinstruments-music-items-cds-wanted-to-buy/48199/john-stockard-dulcimer-for-sale
(you may have to refresh your browser page to see the new version)


updated by @strumelia: 09/30/25 05:50:32PM
Old Dawg
@old-dawg
09/30/25 04:52:14PM
13 posts

Listing A Dulcimer For Sale


Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

It also posted 3 time. Don't know how yo delete.

Old Dawg
@old-dawg
09/30/25 04:50:27PM
13 posts

Listing A Dulcimer For Sale


Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

I tried. It posted but the photos are too large and the text is stretched out. Don't know how to fix it.

Old Dawg
@old-dawg
09/30/25 04:45:42PM
13 posts

John Stockard Dulcimer For Sale


FOR SALE:instruments/music items/CDs/Wanted to Buy...

Many years ago I contacted John Stockard about building me a dulcimer. He said he wasn't building anymore, but would be willing to sell me one of his personal instruments. I bought it.  It arrived in excellent condition. It is still in excellent condition. It has never left my home. John called it his concert model. It is 38" long. Bouts are 6 3/4" and 8 1/4". Beautiful full and balanced tone with excellent sustain. It was built in 2004 and was build #193. It came with a soft case that appears to be homade.  John was know for his excellent craftsmanship and attention to detail. To find one for sale is quite rare. I am asking $2000 or best offer. Free shipping to the lower 48.

 original original original original original original original original


updated by @old-dawg: 10/28/25 04:06:14PM
Old Dawg
@old-dawg
09/30/25 03:50:35PM
13 posts

Listing A Dulcimer For Sale


Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Trying to list a dulcimer for sale. No luck. Need help

DavisJames
@davisjames
09/30/25 03:12:47PM
30 posts

Anybody familiar with dulcimers made by James Goodall?


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

That's an interesting response.In the 80's electronic tuners took over.I would use them when I was playing in a band then go aside to"make it sound right"...(fiddle,guitar)...I've never understood "tempered scales",being an ear player nor a scientist,laugh....

  3