Forum Activity for @john-shaw

I know I'm coming very late into this discussion, but I thought it might be worth chipping in with one point.  As some of the discussion has been about the rhythm, or about rhythmic changes, in Barbara Allen, people might like to know that a high proportion of English versions of Barbara Allen are in 5/4 time.

Hey everybody,  I am really enjoying your posts.  I do believe it is an individual choice. Although I still favor the single melody string, I have found one dulcimer, the Flat Creek Student Dulcimer,  a large plywood box type of dulcimer, that sounds particularly good with the doubled strings. The doubled melody strings on this particular dulcimer  seems to give it more of a sustained quality. I am glad to have several dulcimers by different builders, for each one has a different voice and has something to offer. Variety, really is the spice of life.

My early dulcimer experience was the opposite of Dusty's.  My first dulcimer had 4 independent strings, no provision for doubling any strings.  Then I broke the plastic nut.  I called several people but it was Keith Young who replaced it for me.  He put on one of "his" nuts with provision for doubling not just the melody but also the middle string. (Of course he notched the bridge as well.)  Now I could do things with the strings I couldn't do before.

Fast forward several years to my getting my Heatherwood.  It has doubled melody with no provision for 4 independent.  I played with the outside string loosened until I discovered all the videos of Schnaufer.  I put that doubled string back on and worked at playing it that way.  Some folks whom I respect greatly advised me to stake one of them off, but I didn't.  

I do move the strings on my Rockwell, sometimes during a performance.  In fact, the engineer recording me wanted to know what I had done to get that "different" sound on the instrument.

Play it like you feel it, 3 or 4 strings; double melody or independent; play it!

Lisa, yes, it really is a challenge.  But the idea and possibilities of it all is to much to ignore.  Some things in life just whop you up side your head, and I believe I have been whopped.

Like you Lisa, my plan is to practice a couple of very easy songs, over and over and over  again.  Same method learning dulcimer 4 years ago.

In my humble opinion, I think it will prove more difficult than learning NAF.  Simply because one has to learn to over blow, instead of trying not too.

When I first started playing dulcimer, I used the double melody string because ... well ... because that's how the dulcimer came and I thought it was normal.  I ignored advice from others to remove one of the melody strings.  I arrogantly thought that since I had been used to double strings on my mandolin and 12-string guitar I could handle it. But one day whil re-stringing I left off the extra string just to see what it was like, and I immediately fell in love with the increased clarity of sound from three single strings. I have since taken the extra melody string off all my dulcimers with the sole exception of a 6 string dulcimette made by Ron Ewing.

I can understand why noter players might want that extra zing you get with the double strings, but for nearly everyone else I don't see the benefit.  It is nearly impossible to bend double strings with any accuracy, and pull-offs and hammer-ons are also a lot easier and cleaner with single strings. Additionally, if you play across all the strings, it is really hard to keep a consistency of tone and volume when one string is doubled and the others aren't.

In the end, as others have said, this is a question of personal preference.  And you might have to play a spell (as in two years or so) to figure out what your preferences are.

Let me also comment on Rob's accurate obvservation that Stephen Seifert uses a double melody for chording. True enough.  But Stephen plays with a lot of drones, and he will tell you that he sometimes goes days on end without playing any chords.  If you compare him to another great flatpicker, Aaron O'Rourke, I think you will see the difference. Stephen plays melodies mainly on the melody string even though he is comfortable across all strings. Watch his left hand, and on most songs you will see him playing horizontally up and down the fretboard.  Compare that to Aaron O'Rourke. Aaron tends to place his left hand in one spot on the fret board and play vertically across all the strings before he moves to another spot on the fretboard.  Not surprisingly, Stephen plays with a double melody and Aaron plays with a single melody.

I always build with a double melody string. Buyers expect it. Although I never use it in my own playing. I think most players come around to single melody eventually... Robert. 

John, I like just the three strings. I took the extra melody string off my Cabin Creek (Walter Messick) because my narrow finger kept splitting the strings. The only dulcimer I have with the double melody strings is my McSpadden. Seems the two melody strings are closer together and I don't have that problem. I really can't tell any difference in volume. It's more a difference in sound. To me the one melody string sounds cleaner and more distinct. That's just my personal opinion. 

Agreed! It is personal preference. As for myself, I say you have to have at least one of each! ;)

DAN

Thanks Strumelia for giving us a larger perspective and for sharing your personal taste for playing. I have a much deeper appreciation for both styles now for each has its won beauty.

There's a lot to be said of both single and double melody strings, for both chordal playing and noter playing. Everyone has their own opinion of course, and all personal preferences are valid!  

I do agree that pull offs might be a bit less clean with a double melody string, and it also seems to not be the best choice for fingerpicking.

I'm a fan of simplicity in sound myself.  However, I prefer the sound and feel of a double melody string for my own playing.  (btw I used to play chord style but have been only noter playing for about 17 years now.)

Why do i like double melody for noter playing?  Because it has a subtle sound characteristic that reminds me of multi-stringed Old World zithers.  (just to clarify, double melody strings were not a musical instrument feature suddenly invented during the folk revival in the U.S., they were a feature of some European traditional dulcimer antecedents long ago).  
It's simple- I love how the double melody string sound retains little echoes of traditional folk zither/zitter playing and transports me to another time and place.  

Thanks Rob for the information.  I am becoming more flexible in appreciating the double string. I think its not the instrument that needs a balanced, approach but me. I am so glad that the Mt. Dulcimer is a folk instrument, and therefore is open to a variety of style. Keep up the good strumming and singing. John

David Schnaufer used a double melody for chording; Steve Seifert uses one as well.  Alan Freeman, tho' playing a different "style" and using a radically different tuning, does too.  I like being able to go from 4 independent strings to double melody for certain songs.  I haven't found it harder nor does it really give me more volume, just a little different sound.

Wow John, I love it! ...I'm going to claim that as my new credo- it's a great fit for how I like to go through life.   

Terry, it really is a challenge, isn't it?  At this early stage it feels like attempting to pat your head, rub your tummy, and dance a jig all at the same time...impossible!  I'm settling on just four or five  very  simple tunes to play over and over now ...until I stop playing totally wrong notes.   Once I can play them without wrong notes, I'll try adding a very simple drum beat while piping, like maybe only one beat per measure.   

Having never played a recorder, flute or whistle, this really is difficult for me and demands extreme baby steps.  But it's so fun when I manage a little phrase correctly.  The whole purpose of the tabor pipe is to be able to play tunes on a pipe with only one hand , so that you can play percussion (the word tabor means a drum, but you are not restricted to that) with your right hand at the same time.

Thanks Ken H. and Ken L.  I do so appreciate your experience and knowledge.  I have found one advantage of the double string recently and that is when sounding the melody strings for my library class 0f beginners they are able to hear the sound of it for tuning purposes.  I started my dulcimer playing with a three string Jeffrey Dulcimer back in 1978 and have loved its simplicity ever since.  

Yes, one could say a pipe produces a shrill sound,  and it could be said one can hear a mellow sound.

Keys, octaves, pipe, and the skill of the player, determines all of this.

Saying all of this, I really don't know at this point what in the h... I am talking about.  

What I do understand is my new dream of playing Tabor pipe and drum, out in public one day.  I see the possibilities as being fun and everlasting.

Hey Lisa, pretty nice to be out of the closet, huh?

Well, John, like you, I enjoy playing with three strings and for the reasons you mention. Occasionally I will play one of my four string dulcimers with a double melody string arrangement, but when I do, I usually play with a noter.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Doubled melody strings came about during the Revival of the 1960s/70s.  People thought they gave a more balanced (not louder) sound between the melody and the drone strings.   Doubled melody strings are not necessarily more effective for noter & drone for the same reason they cause problems for chord players -- the noter, or fingers, tend to slide the two strings too close together and the do not sound cleanly.  I used to swear by doubled melody string; but I've since come to my senses and use just three strings.

"Commercial" builders usually made doubled melody strings standard because it it easy to remove one, if you chose; and they feel they would lose sales to those who believe that Revival hype <grin>.  Custom builders will make what you want, and aren't necessarily any more expensive than commercial builders...   Those who love and play Traditional dulcimers usually prefer just a single string per course.

From things I dug up, it looks pretty darn simple to make a tabor pipe.  It's a cylindrical bore.  Half-inch diameter thin-wall PVC is mentioned as a good material, which can be suitably painted/decorated to not look like PVC.

I am a frustrated flute/whistle/recorder/shakuhachi player and there are some funny family stories about my attempts. At least, they think the stories are funny. Oh, well.

But having a new passion, music or otherwise, is always a great thing. Being a beginner is how one stays young. 

I don't think it's any more shrill than a penny whistle, though?

Happily John, my office/practice location is upstairs and my husband's office and the main part of the house is downstairs , so that helps a lot.  He seems to think it's interesting, and he knows I enjoy trying new music explorations periodically.   

The tabor pipe gets more than a full scale on its 3 holes- for example my G pipe goes from the low G up to the next g, and then higher yet to A, B, C, and D.  So I can play it in G, in A minor, and in I think D (or C?) as well if I learn certain 'half-hole' techniques.  But that's getting way ahead of myself.  
Terry was intrigued when i mentioned to him my having just gotten one- then he caught the fever too, poor fellow.  We've been comparing notes on our new pipes for days, before 'going public' with this quirky new adventure.   

I have always been a three stringed player and have had students wonder why I would ask them to put aside one of the doubled melody strings.  I tell them that I like the pure harmony and balance of the strings, and that it is easier for them to press down on the frets to begin with.  Of course I am also a melody-chord type of player.  I feel that there are certain effects such as  arpeggio's, and hammer-ons  and pull- offs that are easier this way.  I have always thought that a doubled stringed dulcimer sounded more like a mandolin.  I know you can get more volume with a doubled melody string. I also know that the noter/drone style is more effective with the doubled melody string.  I keep thinking that the reason so many dulcimers these days come with doubled melody strings is because the maker doesn't know if you are a noter/drone or melody-chord player.  I would like to know what others of you think about the advantages and disadvantages of a three string or a doubled melody string are.

I hope you fine people have someplace far away from the house where you can study that tabor pipe! I suspect practicing tabor pipe is grounds for divorce in some states. 

It really is a facinating instrument, though. Even though it only has three holes, by overblowing you can get a full scale. But it is a shrill noise!

Yes I looked at that tradition. It's very cool too! But I am not going to be hauling that thing around in my arms. No way.  Lol

hey, I like drums!

 Wow, Lisa.  Very interesting.

Thank you.

Drums?  Drums!?  We are dulcimer players!  We need DRONES!  Make it a tambourin a cordes ! 

I mean, how cool is this:

I grabbed this photo from this site: http://instrumundo.blogspot.com/2013/04/ttun-ttun-chicoten-tambor-de-cuerdas.html

"At least I know I do."    I do, too.

yep I'm here Terry...in fact typing one-handed with my tabor pipe in the other-  lol

i think you are way ahead of me though since you have flute/whistle experience already-  wind flutes/pipes are totally new to me    =8-o

Terry and I both just received our tabor pipes in the last few days, but neither of us have an actual tabor drum yet.  soon though!

it's a big challenge for sure, but we like challenges- at least i know i do.  

Sounds interesting Terry, I shall look it up. Have fun with it and will look forward to hearing how it goes.

I have a new music interest, called Tabor Pipe and Drum.  I probably don't know enough to even start a thread, as my journey only began in the past week.  I am hoping others, who know of this music, will join in and offer up their experience, opinions and thoughts.

The tabor pipe is a flute with 3 holes, two on top and 1 on the bottom, which is covered and uncovered by the thumb.  

The player holds the pipe with one hand, right or left (left for me), holds the drum with the same arm, and strikes the drum with a drum stick held with the right hand.  

I have already figured out that this presents itself as a real challenge.  However, I am very excited, while apprehensive, about the possibilities.  Searching YouTube, I love the music and the venues.  

I am hoping that Strumelia will join in, as she is the one who initially sparked my interest.  She is certainly a "leg up" on me.

If you would like a look see, just type in Tabor Pipe and Drum YouTube, and you will find many videos.

"A new journey begins."

Unless the original finish on the Hondo is worn through, I would not put anything on it other than a good polish. I think those old Hondo dulcimers had a light lacquer finish. I really like this polish:  Smith Pro Formula Polish .

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Welcome jfro!  Hondo dulcimers, made in Korea,  are one of the few "made overseas" dulcimer success stories, unlike First Act and a few other brands we could name...  Every Hondo I've seen and played has a great sound. 

Yours has completely raw wood on the back??? No finish at all?  They certainly were not sold that way!!  If it truly is raw wood, then I would use a rub-on polyurethane as one of the simplest finishes.  Another choice would be Tung Oil.  Both will take about 4 coats to completely seal the back.  If, however, it has a finish and you jusr want to shine it up a bit, try a little lemon Pledge on a soft cloth.

Since this is you first dulcimer, you might want to read the article I wrote a number of years ago called I Just Got A Dulcimer, Now What?  It's an illustrated glossary of dulcimer terms, so we all know what we're talking about -- 'back', not backboard or bottom surface for example -- plus answers to many beginner questions about the tuning, playing, care and feeding of your new friend.  The recently revised article is here:

I Just Got A Dulcimer 2016.pdf - 1.1MB

Was wondering if anyone was familiar with these dulcimers, I'm finding almost no info on them or possible value, I have found that he was active around 1970 on, built only around 20 a year during the Dulcimer "boom: of around 1980, looks decent, but didn't know if anyone does, or has owned one and what they may sound like. Thanks in advance again as usual., George

John Frazier South Bend Indiana  No. 165 Dec1978

38" in length, 28 1/4 inch string length as he put it, I asked for length from bridge to nut since I don't think he knew what vsl was. 1 3/4 deep

 s-l1600.jpg - 70KB

Aw I just don't get to go dancing anymore! We were taught country dancing at the very old fashioned girls grammar school I attended in the 70s. The music certainly wasn't as funky as that!! I learned a mix of English and Scottish dances and they were useful for going to ceilidhs when I was a bit older. 

I also had a stint of doing circle dance in the 90s: a generic term for a collection of European folk dances that don't require partnering up and are done in circles, lines or chains. The sessions with live musicians were great; Turkish, Breton, Bulgarian, Jewish, all kinds of tunes.

All this brings back memories of spending one day week from 2nd grade through high school square dancing. It was a real blast. Took a gym class in college called Folk and International Dancing. Those were the days! Thanks for sharing all your dancing experience. I always enjoyed watching John Hartford play his banjo and dance at the same time.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Strumelia,  I Googled English Country Dancing, for clubs.  The nearest is in Griffin,  Ga., 3 hours from me.

No problem. I still plan to study much on this subject.

When I was a teen, my dad owned a roller skate rink.  Every Sat. Night he would close it for skating, and host a square dance 

  Loads of fun for sure.

It's easy to learn to contra dance Terry!  I'm no expert for sure.  Every single dance gets taught slowly before the music begins, so you never really have to remember a dance from one evening to the next.  There are various common moves that get used in different combinations.  We all laugh when we make mistakes.  Lots of people of all ages, and physically challenged folks too.  Contra dancing is fairly popular, so there's one within a reasonable drive maybe once or twice a month, at least here in the Northeast.  The live music is so fun to dance to!   I especially love it in Contra dancing when all the dancers stomp a foot or two and you can feel it through the entire room, just like when the video starts out, and also at 1:10.   :)

Wow, Strumelia.   That is so cool.  It was easy to find you,  being the great fluid dancer that you are.  Seriously, you appeared very much in your eliment. 

Loving the good life.

Terry, here's a video of a Contra dance in Massachusetts where you can actually see me dancing..

As the video starts, I'm somewhat in the middle of the screen, but on the right side of the aisle, dancing with the fellow in the orange shirt.  At 0:36, I go to a new partner, the fellow in the plaid shirt.  Then later, after the camera pans to the left and then back to the right again, you can see me on the right side again at around 1:10 in the video, and through to the end.  

Terry, that was just an example of English Country Dance. Nobody filmed the one I went to.

If you do a youtube search of both Contra dance and English Country dancing, you'll see the difference between the two.  Contra is more high energy movement, while ECD is more flowing and stately.  I like them both now!  

Strumelia,  I couldn't pick you out.  Are you filming?

Anyway, that's way way too cool.  I've got to look into this dance.   My wife and I were discussing taking up some kind of dance, recently.

Time to do some googling.