Forum Activity for @strumelia

I know exactly why I myself sort of have to look at the fretboard when i play dulcimer ... when I play banjo, not only are my fingertips pressing on the fretboard, but my left hand or at least my thumb, is curled around the neck and thus giving me a physical reference point , a sense of where 'home' is for frets 1-5. Much the same as when folks plant a pinky when flatpicking across strings on mando, guitar, bluegrass banjo, and dulcimer too. Without that pinky plant, it's much harder to pick individual strings accurately when not looking- the pinky tip is the reference point. even with clawhammer banjo, most folks at least have their thumb on the back of the neck and it works well as a reference point. I can play banjo pretty well without fretboard looking, but not dulcimer.

With a mtn dulcimer, we don't have our left hand wrapping or curling around the neck for a reference point, once you go up and down the neck either fingering notes or using a noter, it's hard to know where the frets exactly are anymore. Of course this is a skill that can be developed and improved (look at highly skilled hammered dulcimer players), but most folks use the eyes becasue the physical reference point is not there as it is with necked instruments.

I know I have a terrible time when we play at night while camping, if we are playing by low lantern light and my fretboard is not getting any light at all. A good exercise is to try playingh for varying time lengths with your eyes closed....quite an education!

All that said, I'll look at my fretboard if I please to! :)

Look as much as you need to look. But not one glance more.

I still believe that too much is made of "not looking at the fret board". In a performance, what's wrong with looking at the work you are doing? Sure, you have to take your eyes off of the fret board a lot of the time, eye contact with the audience is important. Great guitarists like Jimi Hendrix, Neil Young, Bob Dylan & Keith Richards all spent time during performances looking at their fingers to get the music as perfect as can be. Young even closes his eyes on some songs for sometimes a minute at a time. If your heart is into the song, and you have confidence in your skill for this one song by preparing yourself mentally and physically, then there is no need to be worrying about staring at the fret board too long and making eye contact with the audience. It just happens. Just be your natural prepared self.

Riding a bike hands-free has to do with the gyroscopic effect of a running wheel and the bending of the fork of the front wheel combined with the center of gravity:a bottom in the saddle. That's plain physics and not being afraid... Hands-free standing in front of a traffic light with both feet on the pedals (sur place) or riding uphill standing on the pedals is almost impossible!

No need to look at the fret board is a psycho-motoric matter, createdin our brain and spine.

So, the challenge: riding a bike solo while playing the dulcimer on your lap! And watching the traffic at the same time :D

I think muscle memory isnt that important due to the diatonic fret board, special in the lower octave. There is enough space to get the right tone. The same goes to the VSL, I think. More troublesome is the retuning of the strings, which enables to play the tune right, also due to the diatonic structure.Sometimes a song needs the 5/6/6+/7 frets and a capo. Better look at the frets then

Wout

If you look at the fret board, how can you concentrate on the pretty girl in the third row?

As my old Drill Sgt. used to say,

"Ain't no use in lookin' down

Ain't no discharge on the ground."

Don't let all of us who didn't pay attention to the teacher change what you are doing. Music teachers will tell you to look at the music, not at the fret board. But try to make some eye contact with that girl.....especially if she's your wife!

Paul

Dean, let me reiterate a few points already made and add a couple of my own.

First, almost everyone will have to look at the fretboard when they first start playing. Eventually, you gain the muscle memory of where the frets are and you don't have to look as much.

Second, many of us play different instruments with different VSLs, so we can't rely on that muscle memore as much as those who play a single instrument all the time. I have five dulcimers I play regularly, only two of which are standard-sized dulcimers. The others are made to fill different tonal ranges, and their sizes vary. All five of those dulcimers have different VSLs.

Third, some songs are more complicated than others. For simple tunes played around the nut, I can play without looking at the fretboard. But other songsinvolve chords higher up the freboard and/ora lot of movement from lower frets to very high frets. It is very difficult to play those kinds of tunes without looking at the fretboard. When I play guitar, I can generally play chordal accompaniment even with bass runs and little licks without looking at what I'm doing. But if I have to take a solo, then my eyes will be glued to the fingerboard since my fingers will be moving around a lot.

Fourth, some of us don't use tab or sheet music. This might sound odd, but I learn the songs I learn. What I mean is that I use tab or music when I first learn a song, and perhpas I have to refer to that to refresh my memory of a song I haven't played ina while, but while I play I don't look at music. I find I can play faster and more precisely by concentrating solely on the fretboard and my finger placement. I don't want the distraction of looking at a piece of paper and then having to translate that paper to action on the fretboard. My fingers fretting and picking strings is all I want to think about.

What you do is your business I think many people still look at the fretboard because even though they may have been playing for years, that amounts to very few hours overall when they belong to a club that meets once a month for a copuple hours, and they don't practice in between.

The one good thing I have to say about playing from paper is that it does, at least part of the time, force the player to look at something other than the fretboard. Then you'll see the flicking eyes, like someone watching a tennis match, as they look at the page...then the fretboard...then the page...and repeat They play with their eyes rather than their ears.

Dean, I tend not to watch the fretboard as well. Since I play and sing at the same time, I usually concentrate on reading my tab for the words to the song.

I'll have an idea as to why many players would watch the fret board though. They might have more than one instrument and have varying VSL lengths. All my instruments but 2 have the same VSL lengths, which is why I tend not to play the 2 that don't. Their fret placement confuses my muscle memory. Even though one of them is only just over an inch longer as soon as I start playing it, I flub up and have to watch my finger placement. I'm a melody/drone player and so am only using one finger at a time the small difference in the VSL causes havoc with my playing.

good idea Bobby thanks

No it's not an old dulcimer it is really my most expensive one and is a proffesional model Papaw's dulcimer with a pickup in it. The frets in it are all good. Iwas thinking of sending it back to him to have the work done.

OK I think I ready to try a fully chromatic dulcimer. But I have so many I really don't want to purchase another one. I have a few that already have a 1 1/2, 6 1/2, 8 1/2 and a 13 1/2 How hard would it be to have the rest of the frets added to make one chromatic and how many more frets would it need?

I'd be happy to give that song a try, but I do not know the tune. Can you help me out?

Nancy, Your group should tryABBA, Father the song rocks back and forth from D to G. A beautiful song at a slower pace.

Happily, most players of those instruments do eventually learn to incorporate melody lines, to one extent or another.

Ken Hulme said:

One of the things I personally never cared for with guitar (or banjo, mandolin etc) was the fact that every player I knew only knew three chords (as it were) and could not play melodies.

Practically every dulcimer player that I know (who sings while playing "chord/melody" style) plays accompaniment chords without playing the actual melody when they are singing the melody during a song. I've heard some play and sing the melody together (even harmonies between the two), but not many, and certainly not most by any means. Melodic lines for intros and breaks? Sure...all the time. Purely instrumental tunes would be a different matter, where the chords and melody would be played simultaneously.

Ken Hulme said:

Fact of the matter is that most dulcimer players do not play 'accompaniment style' that way. They play Chord-Melody style - one chord for each note of the melody - and sing along with that.

Well Dusty, I started my music 18 years ago, as an adult that has some piano but couldn't sing a note in tune. No tunes running thru my head; so I feel like a beginner with music and ear training. I've just recently been able to hear chord changes and am still challenged with which one is being played or what tuning an instrument is in. So I'm working on what the best way is to improve this process of leaning music and playing without music. I can now sing a tune, but only if I play the melody notes. I do understand chords and can follow tab as well as play in front of others, when I have my music. Now I want that transition to just doing it from the heart...that is the reason for the simple tunes. I discovered when I started with Twinkle, Twinkle I'm able to get the music without the paper, but I can't play it in a different key yet without a lot of practice! That is also one of my next goals!

Thanks for the info and suggestions.

Nancy

Dusty Turtle said:

Nancy, I mention "Jambalaya" above because it is a really fun song and doesn't sound like something simple or child-like.

I think minimizing the chord changes is a good way to introduce the notion of chord progressions and chording in general. You are on the right track. When I was a wee one my mother taught me to play the ukulele by showing me two one-finger chords. She sang and pointed to me when I was supposed to switch from one to the other. That exercise helped me to hear when the chord change was happening.

So I encourage you to go forth and teach a couple of two-chord songs. But I don't think you should overdo .....

I guess my point is that while it makes sense to begin with two-chord songs, you shouldn't fear moving to three-chord songs very quickly.They are not much more difficult to play but offer a lot more in terms of ear training and practical applications as well.

I think Dusty's right about not getting stuck on one or two or three chord songs. Fact of the matter is that most dulcimer players do not play 'accompaniment style' that way. They play Chord-Melody style - one chord for each note of the melody - and sing along with that.

One of the things I personally never cared for with guitar (or banjo, mandolin etc) was the fact that every player I knew only knew three chords (as it were) and could not play melodies. I came to instrumental music from singing, and wanted to play melodies, not 'hints of the melody'.

Loud applause here, for your desire to get students away from paper as soon a possible!

Nancy, I mention "Jambalaya" above because it is a really fun song and doesn't sound like something simple or child-like.

I think minimizing the chord changes is a good way to introduce the notion of chord progressions and chording in general. You are on the right track. When I was a wee one my mother taught me to play the ukulele by showing me two one-finger chords. She sang and pointed to me when I was supposed to switch from one to the other. That exercise helped me to hear when the chord change was happening.

So I encourage you to go forth and teach a couple of two-chord songs. But I don't think you should overdo it, meaning you don't need more than three or four. Once people "get" the idea of chord changes you can move very quickly to three-chord songs, and there are a lot of those. AsButch Ross said, if you like the first folk song you learn, you'll like the other one, too. His point is simply that all the songs we play are basically the same.

The reason Bile Dem Cabbage Down is so useful as a first song for chord/melody play is that is that it involves the three main chords that lay at the center of all the music we play. Additionally, all chords can be played with one or two fingers, and in fact the melody itself is really nothing but a few chord changes. So whenever the melody note is found on the 2nd fret of the melody string, you play a D, when the melody moves to the 3rd fret you play a G, and when it moves to the 1st fret you play an A. And fancier versions of the song are basically compilations of littlelicks to move from one chord to another, meaning they are usable in all the other songs we play, too.

I guess my point is that while it makes sense to begin with two-chord songs, you shouldn't fear moving to three-chord songs very quickly.They are not much more difficult to play but offer a lot more in terms of ear training and practical applications as well.

Paul said:

If you play using drones, you effectually make every song a one chord song. This is another possibility you may want to consider. You then can demonstrate the same song using chords, and discuss the difference in how it sounds. These are both just different ways to approach a song.

I think Paul was not saying they then become one chord songs- he said it 'effectively makes it' (in effect, in practice) a one chord song- meaning you can play it without playing/fingering any changing chords. :)

Me gotta go. How about Jambalaya?

Thanks Guys. this should get me started and give me a lot choices. First I need them in my brain before I can help others learn them. Well that's my goal with my groups this year. Working to play without the music!

Thanks,

Nancy

I'm with Randy. Drones don't make a song a 'one chord', but they do provide a common element from chord to chord. A good N&D player like Robin can produce some complicated music with two notes the same and one playing the melody.

But. We've hijacked Nancy's thread.

Nancy - if you Google "Two Chord Country Songs" or "Two Chord Songs for Kids", you'll find a ton of tunes. A chord is a chord is a chord, so you won't use guitar or mandolin or banjo fingering, but you will play a D chord, A chord, etc.

Nice word Paul - effectually _ I like it!

I ain't so sure about drones make a song a one chord though. When I listen to Robin Clark play Morris Waltz

http://mountaindulcimer.ning.com/group/oldstyledronenoterplayers/forum/attachment/download?id=3745489%3AUploadedFile%3A485323

I hear some complicated stuff going on and it's not what I'd consider one chord?

This list is from Peter Wernick's website, but is all 2 chord songs. As he is a banjo player/teacher, these are not necesarily all common dulcimer songs. They are mostly common bluegrass songs, and some are probably familiar to a lot of dulcimer players. If nothing else, it is a list to use as a starting point. http://www.drbanjo.com/instructional-2chordsongs.php

If you play using drones, you effectually make every song a one chord song. This is another possibility you may want to consider. You then can demonstrate the same song using chords, and discuss the difference in how it sounds. These are both just different ways to approach a song.

Paul

Hi all,

My name is Nancy Garrett and I'm working with a couple groups of adults and also teaching students in school. In working with my own progress, I'd like to play more without the music; so I've decided to work on simple 2 chord songs. I'd like to be able to sing and play the songs and help others learn where the chord changes take place.

So does anyone have a list of 2 chord songs that are popular on the dulcimer and do you have any hints for me to use for my own learning and helping others to learn?

Thanks,

Nancy

I realize there may be more than one Neville Price, but someone by that name lived in Shelby, Indiana. He was born in 1904 and died June 10, 1989. I did one of those online searches Ken mentioned because it was suggested that Price might be the maker of my Swan shaped dulcimer (mentioned in another thread here) because of the woodburning on it. Since I bought it in an area of Michigan near the IN border that seemed likely. Don't know if any of the Indiana group will respond, but I'm going to make a plea for one of them to post on their group my own information. Whether by Neville Price or another Hoosier, I think they're my next resource and you might want to see what develops there.

UPDATE!

I see that, while you are in GA, you joined the Indiana group, possibly because of this question. Would you post in their group my discussion, Swan Dulcimer - Anybody recognize it? and say whether it's from Neville Price or not, I'd greatly appreciate folks looking at the photos to see if they can tell me more. The signature woodburned on it and the logo are in the photos, but are a bit hard to read. Possibly it's familiar to others in IN. If I joined their group I'd not stay long as I'm barely up-to-date here with other groups.

Life beyond FOTMD has been busy. That's not to say I'm leaving my dulcimer playing. Have a new song I want to include in my One Room Schoolteacher program. The music is fairly straightforward, but the lyrics at the same time are challenging.

All I can say for certain is that he's not on the Active List of Builders maintained by Richard "Pristine2" over on EverythingDulcimer. I'd start with the Shelbyville phone director or an electronic White page search and see what you can find.

Recommendations for builders if you're looking for second hand? Since you're interested in a specific sound quality, I wouldn't worry about maker.

Look first at dimensions -- 27" VSL (or 28" if your playing style will allow); 9" or more width, 3" or more depth. Then buy by sound of the specific instrument -- not shape, not wood types, not maker name, but sound. That means you'll have to play them yourself or have someone play them for you over the phone.

How much is your budget is also an important factor. I can tell you about Dwayne Wilder, but his instruments, even second hand, go for close to $1000. FF's brother, Harpmaker Dave, could build you a new one from scratch for about a third of that, which would sound fabulous, and he would work with you to get exactly what you want.

Tena, I'm going to suggest that you contact some of the luthiers who are members here at FOTMD and talk directly to them about the voice you are looking for. I'm going to mention one instrument maker in particular, my brother, David Lynch of Sweet Woods Instruments. Here are some photos of some of his instruments.

http://s53.photobucket.com/user/theharpmaker/library/custom%20dulcimers?sort=6&page=1

The important thing about getting any instrument built is to go through the creative process with the builder and make sure he has a good idea of the sound that you are looking for and that you know what modifications he'll have to make to his standard models to achieve that voice. /Good luck.

To get a real lute-like sound you're going to probably have to figure out gauges and string a dulcimer with gut or nylon strings like a lute, not metal strings.

If you just want a deeper, more mellow sound, there are LOTS of possibilities that any of the builder here and elewhere can make for you, for not a lot more than a new McSpad. To my ears, as a noter & drone player of traditional "high silvery" instruments, McSpads are not particularly "bright and a little twangy", but their sound has become, as you suggest, the modern idea of a classic dulcimer sound.

Talk to some of the builders here, and get them to play various instruments for you over the phone.

As a general rule, to get a "deep mellow" sound you're going to want a dulcimer with a body that is wider and deeper (more internal volume) than a McSpad or similar dulcimer. How wide & deep? In the range of 9" or more wide, and 3" or even 3.5" deep. The greater the internal volume, the more bass/baritone response there is from a dulcimer. If you want the ultimate in deep mellow sound, consider a Tennessee Music Box (TMB) or similar dulcimer that will be 10"-16" wide and closer to 4" deep than 3". By contrast my Virginia Hog Fiddle traditional style dulcimer by Bobby Ratliff, is only 5.75" wide and 1.25" deep.

Most of the builders here make some version of a TMB.

James, I'm sorry. Can you start a new one? I know it wouldn't be finished in time for Christmas but you could make a drawing of it and stick it in a card for you daughter. You can tell her it's coming soon

Does your daughter play any instruments currently? is she very young?

I am excited about your folk fiddle project and I want to see pix and know how it turns out!

James, please post pictures when you finish. We would love to hear a sound clip too

Looking forward to seeing your build.

inserting.... may give me something to do this winter.

An old mate of mine had a wonderful scrapbox, not so much for the thin section stuff, but all the bits for tailblocks, scroll heads, nuts and bridges etc..
You could always give him a bell and he'd usually come back with "I've got just the piece for that".

Sadly, no longer with us.

john

Good point Ken, tho' as my wife used to say on the rare occasions she managed to see my workplace/hideyhole " why do you keep all these odds and ends of rubbish, they must be too small to make things out off" women ! (tongue in cheek, honest )

JohnH

Carolyn - it all depends on the quality of one's scrap bin. Some folks only have scrap 2x4s of pine and maybe a few pieces of 3/4" oak, Mine has reasonable sized pieces of all sorts of thin cuts of exotic woods leftover from other instrument and craft projects.

The instrument described is much more sophisticated than any of the "real" folk fiddles I've seen in Spain, Latin America and Asia. With it's suspended, radiused fingerboard and sound post and other details, its "just" a 'funny shaped' European fiddle.