Let's see your performance to enjoy.

It's always a great time to get interested in banjos. (or dulcimers!)

Well Ken, I'd suppose that is 6 years of skill developed!

Shannon -- you do realize this thread was last editied 6 years ago, don't you?

Please share your performance.

Yeah I can see how DropC tuning would be good for singing and backup !

I really like this tuning when playing fiddle tunes too Strumelia, but when I'm singing folk songs in C or D and playing backup, I prefer drop C tuning gCGBD.  When I play this tuning in D, I like to start with open G, gDGBD, and capo the first three strings at the second fret and leave the 4th string open, capoing the thumb string to A.  This gives me aDAC#E, but I can use key of G shapes.

I use a capo for D rather than tuning up.  I'm a bit nervous about tuning up with the medium gauge strings I like to use.

Bill- most oldtime fiddle tune banjo players I know, when playing for key of D, will either tune up to aDADE

which is referred to as 'double D tuning'. (the first lower case letter is the short fifth string)

OR, if they don't want to tune up that high they will tune to 'double C tuning' which is:  g, C, G, C, D

and then you can hook your fifth string up to 'a' and put a capo on the second fret for the other 4 strings.  That would bring you back up to double d tuning but with less cranking of the strings if starting from standard G tuning of gDGBD.

I usually just tune up to aDADE to play in D.

I tune my banjo F#, D, F#, A, D (from 5th to 1st string). You can play melody on the first string just like on the dulcimer. I use a clawhammer or a two-finger style strum.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

I just got a Deering Goodtime 5 string banjo, how do I tune or capo to play along with dulcimers in DAD?

It has spikes for capo on 5th string.

Any help would be appreciated

It doesn't sound like sawmill tuning, my guess is try Last Chance tuning. fCFCD.

Paul

Uh oh, i guess i;m in trouble now.

John Henry said:

Oh Strumelia, you fickle fing !!! There's me thinking that you loved the mt'n dulcimer !

JohnH

Hi Strumelia,

Do you know what tuning Eriksen is using in that video? I've been searching for it on line but not found it. At a guess I would say he is in e,B,E,A,D but about 10 cents sharp on that?

Robin

Oh Strumelia, you fickle fing !!! There's me thinking that you loved the mt'n dulcimer !

JohnH

Robin,

As you know, I've been working on that Eriksen banjo version of Sugar Baby (also see the other threads here on FOTMD re: Red Rocking Chair/Sugar babe). He uses an old tuning which is nice. Karen Dalton did a nice banjo version of Red Rocking Chair as well.

I'm glad you are exploring the wonderful uniqueness that is ...banjo. It's a lifelong love affair.

Hi Robin, good to see you are having so much fun. It's been fascinating watching you progress

Tim Erikson started out in a band called Cordelia's Dad and has a 10 minute version of Sugar Babe on their album 'Comet' if you can find it.

Cath Oss, another ex member now lives in England and plays with her husband under the name 'Cath and Phil Tyler', also well worth a listen. They have a version of Long Time Traveller that I like.

john p

Thanks Randy,

It is great to try something new and go through those frustrations and triumphs of learning. I think you are right in challenging your students. All you can give them is challenge and inspiration - if they are going to be successful then the motivation and hard work has to come from them!

I'm really enjoying the banjo - I know so little about the instrument and its music that each new page is a wonder

Strumelia send me a link last night to a video of a guy called Tim Erikson playing a small fretless banjo in Time Square.

I'd never heard the banjo played with such a driving, constantrhythm before, and such a full sound! Now that was both inspirational and a challenge!!!!!!! So I sat down this lunchtime and had a play around with that driving sound to see what I could come up with andhad a go atCluck Old Hen (coz there's not too many notes) to see if I could start to find something like that style.I was just messing around with the tune and trying to concentrate on rhythm - so much so that there's a couple of bits of melody that just sort of appeared and I don't think I could repeat

Robin I admire your courage learning a new instrument....esp banjo as it's quirky. I've never given music lessons so forget how it was but recently my son Bill and my nephew Dawson started playing the banjo & all the sudden I'm giving...as in free... : )...banjo lessons. Bill has the advantage b/c he knows the fiddle tunes & the genre but even he has trouble making it go. I think the things I show them are a little too hard....but better than too easy huh?

Sounding great....your updates are interesting...thx!

Hi FolkFan,

Tha second tune was supposed to be Shady Grove! Those tunes were recorded 3 months ago when I first got my banjo. I've had a lot of help since then. Strumelia has been great at helping to point me in the right direction bytryingto show me the differernce between guitar and clawhammer banjo!!!! So I'm trying to play more melodically using open tunings and not based around chords. I've just re-recorded Shady Grove and I'm working on a really simple version of Arkansas Traveller hoping to get a more melodic feel to my playing. Still, it is early days yet!

Robin

Thanks Lisa,

I've just been watching Clarence Ashley on YouTube. I've heard so many modern ballad versions recently that I'd completely lost sight of the way Clarence played the tune. I think I could possibly work out most of his licks and phrasing although the guitar is getting in the way a bit. He has such subtle hand movements - it's a joy to watch!

I have been getting some coaching from Nick. I'll work out a tune for myself and then take it to Nick and he'll show me how to make it better with different fingering, drop thums, hammer-ons, pull offs, etc - or he may move the rhythm around a bit for me. We've not actually worked on the cuckoo together yet.

I seem to be able to get a lot of different tones from my banjo by moving the rag around inside it and by playing in different positions. It is only a very cheap instrument - the bottom of the range. When I buy another I'd like to go for a slightly wider neck - but that's all I'd change.

Your banjo playing is really sounding good Robin. Most people take several years to get to where you are now. You must be getting help from Rick!

Most old-time players consider Clarence Ashley's banjo/singing version to be 'the gold standard', but of course it's good to have your own version in the end.

That banjo you are playing has a really nice tone.

Well I've had my banjo for 3 months - so I thought I would record something this afternoon. One of the tunes I've been working on is The Cuckoo. I've heard lots of different versions of the tune so I've just been stealing bits from here and there. The only problem I have is that it isa song, not a fiddle tune - and I don't sing

But it just didn't sound right playing it without the words - so I gave it a go

Playing clawhamer banjo and singing at the same time is a whole new ball game !!!!!!!!

The recording was on my Zoom H2 on a mic stand in my lounge while standing up playing and singing. Well this is certainly an "adventure" with a new instrument coz I'm well out of my comfort zone on this one

Robin

It's all about the journey, and it sounds like you're on your way. Years from now, you'll have years of experience.

Around here, Old Time music has gotten infected with Bluegrass disease, making a lot of people play the songs too fast. It's not really limited to banjo,though. I've seen mandolin and guitar players affected. Even some Mt. dulcimer players have gotten it. Let your friends keep the pace, is sounds like they still remember when it was dance music.

Paul

I had a tough hour last night.

A friend from down the road (fiddle and banjo player) knocked on the door yesterday and asked if I wanted to go down to his place to play banjo with him on fiddle. Another friend, Chris, turned up with his mandolin and it was a case of "Right - let's see how far you've got with that thing!".

I opened with "Old Joe Clark" and at the end of the playing the tune through a few a few times with them I looked up expecting high praise indeed All that came back was "TOO FAST" "Bloody banjo players - way too fast!!!!!!" Now, one of the first things that Nick said to me a couple of week's ago whentold himI wanted to learn banjo was "Watch your speed on banjo. It is really easy to play too quick at sessions". That lesson has now been learned, and I can expect an "I told you so!" when I next see him

Chris then asked me "What tunes don't you know on that thing?" Well, after a couple of week's playing I only have 3 or 4 tunes, so the list of stuff I don't know is pretty long! So the two of themthen proceeded to play tunes I have yet to learn giving me a couple of minutes or so to re-tune and work out some of the phrases before kicking off. It was a struggle to say the least but just what I needed really.

The double C tuning capo'd+ 2 to the key of D (aDADE) is giving me the most trouble at present. The first 3 strings are the same as "sawmill" capo'd +2 (aEADE) in A minor. In A minor you play the C scale but in D you play the D scale on the same strings. Those first two strings are so close (just a tone apart) that working out the best pattern for a tune is quite a challenge as there are so many options! Also, having chromatic frets means that 4 out of every eleven notes are definately wrong

I'm not actually thinking about scales when I play - in fact, I try not to "think" of anything at all, just hear the tune and let everything else just happen. I found that I got on best at picking up tune phrases on the banjo last night with my eyes shut, or at least when not looking at my hands. Whereas with dulcimer and dobro I definately use visual clues (I'm going to have to have a play around with that!!!!)

This is certainly turning into an "adventure" with another instrument!

Robin

I was VERY tempted to buy a nylon strung fretless as my first banjo - and I don't think that there is any doubt that I will have one at some stage. I had aquick playwith one before making my decision to opt for a standard banjo as a starter.

I'll look up those Doc Boggs tracks.

Thanks

Robin, that dropthumb teaching video is very well done- I'm glad you found it, he gives great advice and it's very clear!

He's an excellent teacher.

Paul what you said about Pete Seeger is fascinating. I found the very same thing to be true for me- that learning/teaching dropthumb later on in one's playing is not ideal.

Robin- try watching/listening to Doc Boggs on banjo- it's pretty inspiring and yummy. I have a friend who learned nylon-strung fretless playing by listening to his playing and she sounds fabulous . Wish I could play like her!

Thanks Paul,

I've been working from this YouTube clip - for me, as a beginner,it is the best explanation and skill breakdownI have seen (it is lesson 2 for beginners - lesson 1 was the basic stroke):

I've been working on these exercises for just over a week so I'm starting to get up to playing speed. I'm now looking at where and when I can use the technique by playing around with slotting it into the tunes I already play.

Only another 10,000 hours of practice and I'll be able to do it really well !

Robin

When Pete Seeger wrote his banjo book, in the late 1940's, he taught the basic stroke, and added drop thumb in a later chapter. But some years later, he said that was not the best way to teach it, and that he now thinks drop thumb is best taught early. The real key is to do it as slowly as is necessary to do it correctly. Speed comes at it's own-well, speed. Rushing it is counter productive in any learning.Smooth and in time, as slow as needed.

Paul

That's exactly what I was trying to convey! Break up the standard strumming structure and throw in syncopated pauses, dropthumbs, hammer/pulls, and slides...they are the tools to make your playing come alive and be really banjo . Every time you start feeling too comfortable with doing something the same way, break it up again with something new like drop thumbing on a different string or using a left hand pluck note in a syncopated rhythm place, etc. Keep shaking things up and you will start automatically incorporating the little tricks and tools in to your normal play without having to think about it much. It will make your playing much more interesting and alive. Keep up the good work!

If you choose crooked/funky tunes to do this practice with, it will force you to break out of the comfortable bump-a-ditty pattern, which will be even more helpful. I had to do this. Actually, what I did was lock away my fretted banjos after two years of playing and force myself to play fretless banjo only for about a year, and boy that was the biggest thing that broke me of my over-dependence on banjo chord strumming. I doubt you would ever need to take such drastic action as I had to.

I've had a bit of a drop thumb breakthough

I was playing around with the drop thumb motion and thought of "You Are My Sunshine" - so I used that tune as an exercise to practice the movement on the spaces between the phrases. Sort of "You are my...boom-chinga-linga-chinga-ling. My only.. boom-chinga-linga-linga-ling." So I had that going OK last night and was really cheesily over doing it !

This lunchtime I had a go at "Pigs Foot" trying to apply your "skating and skipping" by halving the number of right hand strikes and using more hammer-ons pull-offs and slides. After playing it through a few times I realised that I'd thrown in a drop thumb pattern at the start of Part B without really thinking about it So all that practicing of the movement without actually knowing how to fit it into the music has paid off! I'm now starting to understand where it fits - although it looks like my subconscious mind is already way ahead of my conscious reasoning (as usual !!!!!)

Robin

Robin you are very observant!

Dwight doesn't believe in teaching beginners to drop thumb much. In fact, he is the one who discouraged me from incorporating drop thumb as a beginner- which is exactly part of what caused me big problems a year later as my playing improved.

Because of that, I always teach my beginner students drop thumb right from the beginning, with good results.

Dwight is all about rhythm, and he's one of my favorite players to listen to. :)

In his classes and teaching, Dwight doesn't touch on drop thumbs much if at all. But if you watch Dwight playing banjo in a non-teaching setting, you'll find he drop thumbs regularly (you can hear them more than see them)- but it's always really hard to see anything about what his individual fingers are doing because his hands are like big HAMS! lol! His fingernails are like horse hooves !

Hey thanks!

I've just been watching some of Dwight's posts on YouTube. I think I may get a couple of his videos. Great rhythms!!!

The wear pattern on his banjo heads looks like a big giveaway on how he gets his sound? I didn't see him drop thumb at all ?

Robin

Cool, Robin!

For old-time Appalachian tunes, Dwight Diller's play does something for me. Although I don't own a banjo, I have 2 of his cd's and 2 dvd's; one of the dvd's is instructional and it's about rhythm.

Wow - you have had some good teachers Lisa!

My banjo has a simple wooden potwith ametal tone ring:

Oops - perhaps I should have taken my good lady's vest that I stole to use as a damper out of the back of the banjo before taking the photo - she may have something to say about that!

Robin

Looks like a humdinger of a banjo, Robin. I love those 'put together' basic banjos- they often have that wonderful down home sound. Reminds me of the 1060's Kay banjos that were very affordable and simple back then, but are now much sought after by smart banjo players because they were well built despite their plainness and they just play and sound GOOD! Is it a spun-over metal pot or a wooden pot?

Yes a good approach is to keep testing things and not let yourself get cemented into habits that might hold you back later. I made that mistake by avoiding drop thumbs the first year and when i tried to incorporate them later I found it terribly difficult. I learned a lot from that mistake. I was fortunate to take a workshop with Brad Leftwich at the time and I got a 30 minute private sit down with him. I asked him why i couldn't manage the drop thumb well, and he watched me and nailed it - he showed me the specific details of what my problem was, he knew exactly, and after that I was able to 'get it'. Otherwise my rhythm would have continued to be slightly awkward forever I think.

i found the best books & teaching materials for me were from Dwight Diller, Brad Leftwich, and Miles Krasson's book- all their ways of playing are a little different, but they all 3 teach fingering and phrases that encourage natural fluidity and yummy syncopated rhythms. They broke me of my self imposed chord-based bump-ditty dependence- that was my personal problem in my first couple of years. Not saying you are going to be like that at all- I think you are a more experienced musician than I am for one thing- just saying what helped me tremendously with my own banjo struggle. :)

Congratulations Robin, that sounds amazing for a couple of weeks study.

Had a guy at the club who went from concertina to banjo in 3 months flat, and good too.

john p

Ahh!!!

Skating and skipping over the fretboard - I can imagine that I've beenattempting to playCripple Creek and Angeline the Baker a bit like that.

Air pauses and less notes - very good!!!! I've just started to have a go at "The Cuckoo" - that's not got many notes at all so it is really making me think about how to carry rhythm. And I'm trying a slow Frosty Morning.

I'm playing around with all sorts of different right hand positions and movements - every player I watch on youtube is doing something slightly different so I'm just copying styles at present and listening to what happens.

I haven't got any idea at all where to use drop thumb (yet!). So I'm just practicing the movement for 10 mins or so each day. I'm sure that Nick will show me how to bring it in to the music when I'm ready. For now I'm basing everything around bum-di-dy and di-dy, thumb on thumb string - it is going to take quite a while to get that flowing.

It is great fun just learning something new

I try and have the approach that "I don't know what I don't know". And that what I'm physically doing now is not what I'm going to be physically doing next week.

I bought a really basic banjo from Andy Perkins banjos. It is his own brand "Grafton" made from Chinese parts and then assembled by him. It has no bells or whistles just very basic parts but it holds itstuning well and will do me just fine. It will certainly be well abused

Robin

Been there, got the tee shirt, and COULD'NT do it !!!

JohnH

You are done for now...the long slippery banjo slope.

You'll find that dulcimer fingering and rhythm doesn't really translate well onto banjo.

You are a good musician, so I'm hearing in your clip that you are able to dive right in and find all the notes pretty quickly- a great accomplishment and head start!

But it will take a much longer time to get the 'feel' of the special rhythms the banjo offers. Right now you are playing rapid fire melody single notes on one string at a time, with an occasional decorative strum. That won't get you a real southern appalachian banjo sound- it's more Dave Macon/Pete Seeger. Start learning especially drop thumb , start using slides and hammer-ons/pulloffs instead of keeping each note separate. I'm just trying to be helpful when i say think more ice skating and skipping and less typewriter. Think of the air pauses- they are just as important as the notes.

My suggestion is to slow down and forget trying to play fast tunes with lots of notes. That will not get you to where I suspect you want to go. Take a lot of steps backwards and work slowly on the RHYTHM, not the notes, not speed. To get the special banjo rhythm you'll need to work hard on drop thumb, slides, pulloffs, and hammerons...but drop thumb more than anything. Those are the tools. And remember your friend is the open drone strings- but not just for brushing and strumming- rather they are an integral part of almost every little 'dance phrase' of notes. I hope some of this makes some sense- it's hard to put into words!

The commonest problem I see with new banjo students?- waggling their thumb separately from the rest of their hand, and using it as an afterthought in a separate note. The thumb needs to BE THERE ALREADY on the thumb string and just lifted off to make the rhythm note sound- you can't bring it along and position it only when you are going to make that note, like you do with the other fingers and notes.

So tell us about your new banjo...and pictures!!

I don't know what came over me? Perhaps it's just a phase I'm going through? Hopefully it is not a sign of something more serious

Two week's ago, on a whim, I pulled out my credit card and bought - a BANJO

I've been listening to loads of old recordings of Appalachian bands lately and it was listening to the banjo/fiddle combinations made started me thinking. If I want to improve my trad dulcimer playing perhaps learning banjo may be a pretty good way of thinking about rhythm in a different way - and it would be a good instrument for accompanying my fiddle playing better-half who is really getting into old time playing. So based on those lame excuses I bought a banjo (please forgive me ).

I've watched a few very basic "learn to clawhammer" YouTube lessons, got a few pointers off my banjo playing buddyand have set about trying to get my head around this weird instrument that has loads of different tunings and a strange right hand action (Mmm..... that reminds me of another instrument I play ). I'm not sure how far I'm going to get with the instrument but my present goal is to simply transfer the tunes I play on mountain dulcimer to banjo and see what comes from that. Already I'm noticing that I'm naturally making slight changes to tunes so they "fall to the fingers" on the banjo when frailing. And I've found I have to use a lot of hammer-ons and pull-offs, plus the thumb string to fill in 8th notes. I've also found that if I look at my hands too much it all goes horribly, horriblywrong So I'm just trying to relax and not think about anything at all - just trusting that my fingers will fall to the notes once I've worked out a phrase or passage.

So, 2 weeks into my banjo journeyI've just made my first recording, which is posted below. The instrument still feels very strange in my hands but hopefully over time it will start to feel more and more natural and begin to sound better too

Robin