Forum Activity for @wally-venable

Wally Venable
@wally-venable
07/23/22 09:46:14AM
116 posts

Best instruction material?


Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

I haven't found anything better than The Dulcimer Book. Ritchie's book will be a little challenging for some because of her suggestions on learning to tune. Some will be a bit put off by her early introduction of alternate tunings.

If possible, find a local group and learn "their way," at least that way you  you can ask questions and get demonstrations.

A lot of the YouTube stuff is posted by folks trying to sell you lessons.

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
07/23/22 08:57:35AM
2,157 posts

Best instruction material?


Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

Wow! That's a rather BIG question Steve!  Part of the answer depends on how you personally learn best.  There are Youtube vids.  There are dozens of books.  And today, there is personal instruction by Zoom or a local dulcimer club or player.  I learned from Jean Ritchie's landmark The Dulcimer Book decades ago when dulcimer players were uncommon.  I'm reader and a writer and am accustomed to that way. 

Today, if I were starting out, I would look for personal instruction.  Where do you live?  Is there a dulcimer club or player with 40 miles?  That IMHO is the way to go.  Second would be some Zoom call lessons. 

There are surely several people here who would be willing to work with you.

FWIW, If you aren't going to Fingerdance (play with bare fingers on the melody string while the others hummm along), are you trying to learn Chord-Melody style or Noter & Drone style?   

For beginners I almost always recommend Fingerdancing because it trains your body and mind both to interact with the instrument.  You don't "dance" to start, it's more like walking.  Chord-Melody involves trying to coordinate three fingers on three strings which isn't as easy; and Noter & Drone involves learning to use a stick to ftret the strings.  

Steven Stroot
@steven-stroot
07/23/22 12:58:02AM
34 posts

Best instruction material?


Dulcimer Resources:TABS/Books/websites/DVDs

I'm finding that my efforts to learn dulcimer by trial and error is not working well and some actual instructional material would be helpful.  Can anyone recommend the best instruction book for beginning dulcimer?  I won't be delving into "finger dancing" or fingerpicking so the book need not cover advanced techniques.  I just need the basics.  Any help you can provide will be greatly appreciated. 

Dusty Turtle
@dusty
07/21/22 11:05:21PM
1,825 posts

Bill Taylor, McSpadden dulcimer values?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions


Janis, there are a few variables to think about. One is the wood.  Is there anything special about it?  Anything figured or curly or spalted is probably worth a bit more.  Is there an internal pickup?  That's probably worth $75 or $100 alone.  Is a case included?  Both dulcimer bags and cases have gone up in price a lot recently, and even a used hardshell case is probably worth $100.

I have to admit that I have a Bill Taylor dulcimer and I've considered selling it a few times. I even posted an ad here for it, but I have always changed my mind, thinking the dulcimer is worth more to me than the price I would get.  On the other hand, if you're interested in a 12-string guitar, I might have something for you . . . grin


updated by @dusty: 07/21/22 11:06:33PM
Janis Lewman
@janis-lewman
07/21/22 10:38:06PM
13 posts

Bill Taylor, McSpadden dulcimer values?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Thanks Strumelia.  I wasn't thinking seriously of selling but was asked "if I did" what would I ask.  At that point, I realized I had no idea what the instrument would go for.  Obviously not a "Strad".  So sounds like best option is to start with what I paid.  Thanks for the insight.

Strumelia
@strumelia
07/21/22 09:40:57PM
2,366 posts

Bill Taylor, McSpadden dulcimer values?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

It's easy to see lots of McSpaddens on ebay and you'll get a quick idea as to what they are currently selling for.

The Bill Taylor I imagine is a nice playable dulcimer, but it's not that old or a big collectable yet, so you might try asking what you paid for it. If nobody bites then lower the price by 20% and that stimulate a sale.

Are you working with someone to sell it in person, i.e. to another dulcimer player in your area, without shipping involved?

Janis Lewman
@janis-lewman
07/21/22 09:16:32PM
13 posts

Other instruments / bowed dulcimer


Adventures with 'other' instruments...

update - just discovered there is a bowed section for FOTMD.  will check it out!

Janis Lewman
@janis-lewman
07/21/22 09:06:47PM
13 posts

Other instruments / bowed dulcimer


Adventures with 'other' instruments...

Love the mountain dulcimer but have been smitten with the sound of a bowed dulcimer. Anyone else in that category?  So many different instruments out there - will never be proficient in all so just do my best on a few.  Banjo - interesting and great sound, but not for me. Ditto for the guitar, and then the ukulele.  It was hard to let them go but can't eep everything.

Janis Lewman
@janis-lewman
07/21/22 08:44:35PM
13 posts

Bill Taylor, McSpadden dulcimer values?


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I hope this is the right place to ask this question - was not intuitive - my apologies for asking in the wrong area earlier.     I have a late 1990's Bill Taylor dulcimer and have been asked to price it.  I know what I paid for it and the case when new but no idea how to price such an item.  I also have an all walnut McSpadden about 2-3 years old.  Not sure I want to part with either - they have very sweet tones - but promised to look into it.  Both are fine, the only downside on the Taylor is it being a bear to chase strings due to slim spacing on scroll head but then I've not needed to change strings that often.

Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
07/21/22 12:35:00PM
1,272 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Yes, that is correct as Skip said.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Skip
@skip
07/21/22 11:01:24AM
371 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

That's it. The larger one fit's over the peg.


updated by @skip: 07/21/22 11:03:06AM
RoyB
@royb
07/21/22 10:53:01AM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

OK, here's a photo of my (I think) following instructions on creating a new, larger loop.  Larger one to the left, original one to the right.  Have I got it now? (and I want to thank every experienced person whose patience I have tried about what may be a very simple solution to my problem)


PXL_20220721_144331168.jpg PXL_20220721_144331168.jpg - 323KB
Skip
@skip
07/21/22 10:52:12AM
371 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Yes, technically, but the only one you fit over the peg is the one you make. You could cut the string but I'v never been able to make a new loop that doesn't come apart. The homemade ones I've seen have about a 1/2" tail perpendicular to the string  to help prevent that and the wraps are tight together.


updated by @skip: 07/21/22 11:00:29AM
RoyB
@royb
07/21/22 10:16:17AM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

What may be a dumb question - won't I them have two loops? Can I just cut off the original loop?

Banjimer
@greg-gunner
07/21/22 09:03:39AM
143 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I've been making larger loops using KenL's method for many years now, and it works just fine when the tail end knob or screw head is too large for the standard loop to fit.  The old-timers always had a way.

Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
07/21/22 08:54:39AM
1,272 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Roy, Ken and Skip's suggestion is how I would handle the problem with the size of the loop. Put the non-loop end of the string through the loop, put over the end pin (knob, as you called it), and pull tight thus making a larger loop. It is a lot easier than trying to make a new loop. I suggest buying bulk strings from JustStrings.com. It is less expensive than having to buy sets all the time. Twelve 0.012 strings cost $4.03 plus shipping  and you can get five 0.022 D'Addario strings for $12.26. I think that works out to 4 sets of strings for $16.49 plus shipping with a couple of extra 0.012s. BTW, you can also make larger loops using ball end strings buy looping the plain end of the string through the ball. Best wishes as you work to make this dulcimer playable. As I recall it has a beautiful sound.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

RoyB
@royb
07/20/22 11:12:55PM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks Strumelia.  I see that your suggested method is a simpler version of those found in the videos, especially for people without the right tools.

Strumelia
@strumelia
07/20/22 08:20:03PM
2,366 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions


Most strings I've bought for either dulcimers or banjos have at least 8" surplus length. I'd just clip off the loop and make a new loop right there. Use the pencil or a dowel to help make the loop around, and avoid making bends that are too sharp when you twist the end.

Something here might help:
https://heritagedulcimers.wordpress.com/articles/making-your-own-loop-end-strings/

you might use a screwdriver rather than a pencil if the loop is sized better that way.


updated by @strumelia: 07/20/22 08:25:30PM
RoyB
@royb
07/20/22 08:11:26PM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

So, two excellent ideas.  If I can't file the knob down to more easily fit the loops, I'll try Strumelia's larger loop method.  For wrapped, larger strings I'd have to use the unwrapped end that's meant to fit into the peg hole, rather than the wrapped end, I'd assume?  Thanks

Strumelia
@strumelia
07/20/22 07:49:54PM
2,366 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Why not just clip the loop off the end of the string and make a new larger loop? I've done that. Use a needle nose pliers and wrap the end of the string around a pencil and then make several twists using the pliers. cut the excess end off. avoid nicking the string with the pliers while bending or twisting the loop end.


updated by @strumelia: 07/20/22 08:25:12PM
Skip
@skip
07/20/22 07:45:52PM
371 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Put some tape on the end block to protect it an use a file.

RoyB
@royb
07/20/22 06:31:14PM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Maybe I could just carefully sand down the diameter of the end piece so the loops will more easily fit over it?

Skip
@skip
07/20/22 06:25:19PM
371 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Un-winding the loops work-hardens the wire, Try feeding the loose end though the loop [kids lasso] to fit over the peg. If they still break, wrap the wire twice around the peg then through the loop, kind of a reverse tuning pin technique.

RoyB
@royb
07/20/22 05:56:22PM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ken, the original string set I had on (and have put back on) was a D'Addario dulcimer set, 12, 12, 14, 22.  I'm not sure what you mean by a running loop.  Will pulling the other end through the loop make it bigger?

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
07/20/22 05:41:24PM
2,157 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Try using the loop-end to make a running loop, by putting the stabby-end through the loop and pulling it up.  You might want to order, or find locally, dulcimer string sets or individual strings of specific gauges.

RoyB
@royb
07/20/22 04:57:28PM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ok, I received the lighter strings today (Vega light banjo strings - 9, 10, 13, 20, 9).  Promptly broke both 9's and the 20 trying to string them up.  Interestingly, it wasn't while tuning - this dulcimer has one 3/16" diameter knob (sticking out about 1/4") on the bridge end on which to fit the string loops (as opposed to screws or multiple knobs).  In order to do that, the loops have to be slightly stretched due to the size of the knob.  That seems to sometimes weaken the loops, causing them to break.  I think I saw banjo string sets that claim to have larger loops, so I might try them.

In addition, I slightly sanded the pegs, as Randy had recommended, only allowed for a few wraps before cutting off the excess at the pegs as Ken said, and installed the strings left to right - for some reason I had been connecting the bass string to what was the middle peg (see my prior photos).  I'm back to 12, 12 and 22, in C G G tuning.  The pegs seem to hold, but it's maddening to get them tuned just right, even to each other - I'm reading that that is an acquired skill.

So thanks to all of you, I'm getting there!

RoyB
@royb
07/20/22 09:59:41AM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks again to all for your suggestions. So I'm going to install lighter strings, lightly sand the peg shafts, and, if needed, acquire some peg drops. I have a feeling the Hiderpaste I applied may have had the opposite effect.

Banjimer
@greg-gunner
07/20/22 09:25:46AM
143 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

For wooden pegs that are slipping under tension, I agree with Lisa that the Original Ardsley Peg Drops are the way to go.

However, if your pegs are stuck and difficult to turn, a second product comes in handy.  W.E. Hill Peg Composition helps to lubricate the shaft of the peg so it will tune smoothly.  The peg compound comes in a small tube and it looks like a tube  of chapstick. I find the Hill Peg Composition very good for restoring old pegs to usability.  If you have an old peg that has "frozen" in position, you will first need to tap it back out of the peghead with a small hammer.  The Hill Peg Compound can then be rubbed onto the peg shaft before re-inserting the peg into the peghole.

So for slipping pegs you want the peg drops.  But for sticking pegs you want a tube of the Hill peg compound.

Strumelia
@strumelia
07/20/22 06:56:04AM
2,366 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

FWIW Roy, I always use PegDrops brand on my wooden pegs, and ONLY that. Everything I've tried has been too slippy. I make sure all other products are gone from the pegs completely, and then I follow the bottle instructions exactly, only like two drop per peg right in the spot where they touch the box as they spin, and spinning them there a bit. Then i let them 'cure' overnight before putting them to the test. They have liquid rosin in them and are just right for my wood peg banjos at high tension. 

RoyB
@royb
07/19/22 10:21:37AM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks Strumelia.  I was beginning to suspect what you said about C tuning for this longer, older instrument. I'll try going lighter and see if there's a balance between floppy strings and slipping pegs in C tuning

!

Strumelia
@strumelia
07/19/22 09:17:46AM
2,366 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Roy, maybe you already know this but- a heavier string and a lighter string, if tuned to the same note over the same scale length, ...the heavier string will be tighter/tauter and the lighter string will be a little more relaxed. That's why it helps to go to a lighter string if the heavier string pulls so much that the pegs can't hold it.

28" is a 'slightly' long scale these days- many dulcimers are now built 25.5 to 27" vsl... which makes sense since dulcimers used to often be tuned to the key of C rather than today's standard key of D.  It's not uncommon to see older dulcimer instruction books from the 1960s or 70s written for key of C tuning.

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
07/19/22 07:31:23AM
2,157 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions


Tuning peg shafts are seldom very thick. 

Full size (4/4) violin pegs are .25" at the tip
1/4 violin pegs are .23"
1/8 violin pegs (the smallest) are .196 at the tip

You can buy an inexpensive standard taper reamer for under $20 on Amazon (I think I paid $12) and standard violin pegs can be had from internationalviolin.com from $.95 each on up depending on size and wood.  The standard taper matches the taper of standard violin pegs without any tweaking.  All you do is insert the reamer in the large end of the hole, push gently and twist a couple times, test fit the new peg, and repeat as necessary.  

For strings on 28"
D = .019 or .020 plain steel.  You can use a .020 wound if you like
A = .012 or .014 plain steel


updated by @ken-hulme: 07/19/22 07:32:09AM
RoyB
@royb
07/18/22 02:22:58PM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

To both Ken's, on bass string recommendations - .018 or .020 plain, or .020 wound, for my 28" VSL?  And yes, the tuning peg shafts are thin - looking at the possibility of replacing them, even violin pegs seem somewhat wider in diameter, which would require reaming the holes or sanding down the new pegs, neither of which I'd be comfortable doing. Even replacing them with Grover dulcimer tuners would require alterations.  I agree with Ken Hulme that I should perhaps try to salvage the original pegs.  Thanks

Ken Longfield
@ken-longfield
07/18/22 02:10:55PM
1,272 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

It really is a very nice dulcimer although, as I recall, the shafts of the tuning pegs are rather thin. I think dropping down to a 0.020 wound string for the D would be good. The 0.012 are about right for A, but you could try a 0.014 which is 0.001 heavier than the suggested string on the Strothers' String Size calculator. 0.012 is 0.001 lighter. You might be able to get away with a 0.011 or 0.010 if they don't get too floppy when tuned up to pitch.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
07/18/22 02:04:29PM
2,157 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Carl E. LaTray from Frankfort, NY  1969 #1.  Never heard of him.  Dulcimer Godmother Jean Ritchie (originally from Viper, KY)  lived in Port Washington, NY and she & husband George Pickow made similar instruments at that same period of time. Co-incidence?  I dunno.

Carl passed away in 2013.  Here's a link to his Obituary, which says in part " Carl was also a skilled craftsman known for his beautifully created woodwork of dulcimers, guitars and various woodworking designs.

Carl LaTray Obituary (2013) - Utica, NY - The Observer-Dispatch (legacy.com)

That is a very fine "first build" dulcimer you have there.  It would be interesting to see the last dulcimer he built!

The footed back is very traditional, it allows you to set the instrument on a "possum board" and then set it in your lap, which allows the back to vibrate and gives you more volume. 

The arched fretboard was known in a few traditional dulcemores, but was pretty rare back in 1969.  It isn't particularly common today but can be a functional "accent". The arches allow the fretboard to remain rigid but gives a significant reduction in mass, making the whole instrument lighter and more responsive.  

RoyB
@royb
07/18/22 12:22:13PM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ken, I thought you might like to see more photos of my dulcimer.  Attached are photos showing the label, back with feet, and a side view showing what I'm told is unusual, 'open' fretboard sides.  Reminds me of a Roman aqueduct.  There are openings cut in the dulcimer top, somewhat corresponding to these fretboard openings.


dulcimer1.jpg dulcimer1.jpg - 101KB
RoyB
@royb
07/18/22 10:18:17AM
71 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks for the info, Ken.  I happened upon this dulcimer four years ago at a guitar show, took it home cleaned it up and restrung it.  Reading Jean Ritchie's books and other research explained what I had, in the way of staple frets, hand made pegs, etc. The label shows it was made by Carl E. LaTray, of Frankfort, NY, dated March 20, 1969, and he designated it "No. 1".  Couldn't find much on him, except that he did make instruments as a hobby, and passed away in 2013, at the age of 85.  The strings I currently have on it are D'Addario's, 12, 12, and a wound 22.  I suspect they are too heavy for the instrument, which may contribute to the peg slipping problem (?).  The VSL is 28" exactly.  I didn't think I needed as many wraps around the pegs, but when I wrap less of the 22 gauge string it consistently snaps as I'm turning it up to tone, for some reason.  I have actually tuned it as you suggest - a bit sharp and let it settle back to tone.  Ken Longfield and I had been communicating on this forum some time ago about this instrument, and he took a look at it during a visit to my area.  I'll try for lighter strings and less wraps if that's what you recommend.  Thanks again.

Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
07/18/22 08:45:55AM
2,157 posts

Switching to Mountain Dulcimer due to guitar playing pain


General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Having looked at the photos you posted in your other thread, Roy, It is obvious that you have a very nice older dulcemore intended only for Noter & Drone or Fingerdancing style play.  The instrument is in the style of a Kentucky or JE Thomas dulcemore with staple frets under only the melody string.   There is no 6+ fret either, again pointing to the traditional nature of the instrument


updated by @ken-hulme: 07/18/22 08:51:24AM
Ken Hulme
@ken-hulme
07/18/22 08:41:03AM
2,157 posts

Tuning peg replacement question


Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

That is a very nice older "Kentucky style" similar to a J.E. "Uncle Ed" Thomas dulcemore with staple frets under only the melody string -- thus intended strictly for Noter & Drone or Fingerdancing style play.   There is no 6+ fret.

If you look through the rear sound holes with a flashlight, is there any sort of maker's label, or written name/date in the wood of the inside bottom?

Personally I would do everything possible to keep the original pegs functioning.  Although they are "in the style of" I don't believe those are commercial pegs.  

What is the VSL?  That's what we need to determine which strings you'll need.  Is the bass string wound?  It's hard to tell.  Many/most traditional dulcemores did not use wound bass strings, which contributes to the 'high silvery' sound of traditional dulcemores rather than the deeper more mellow tone of modern dulcimers.

You do not need all those wraps of string around the pegs.  Through the hole and around twice is all that's necessary; then cut of the excess to avoid birds nests in the pegbox.  

If you have a micrometer, you could mike the strings and see what is currently installed. But with the VSL and knowing you want to tune DAA, we can use a calculator to determine more exact gauges.  However, for VSLs between 24-26", a pair of plain steel .012s for the melody and mid drone, and a plain .018 or .020 for the bass are a good place to start. 

Tuning a bit sharp, with a push at the end to lock the peg is the technique I use.  Then as you play a bit the strings stretch  just a hair reducing the sharpness.  Since we mostly play solo, the exact notes of the tuning are not super critical, although too sharp or too flat don't sound very sweet together.  


updated by @ken-hulme: 07/18/22 08:49:48AM
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