Forum Activity for @irene

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I LOVED THIS DISCUSSION.....makes my mother's day happy.  Skip, Now I have a new name for that whatjajigger at the top and that thingamajig....great name for the bridge.  yep, I look at sites that have "walkabout dulicmers".   very beautiful instruments, but they are not dulcimers.   BUT then we could end up talking story ALL NIGHT about what is and what is not a dulcimer or dulcimore.......modern or traditional....Southern or Western....or just throw an apple at ya.  Thanks for all your comments and I learn a whole lot from ya all.   aloha, irene

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I guess y'all are discussin' that percission  string support thingamajig. You know, the one on one other end from the string tightener doohickys. Back here in the hills, we call 'em the back string lifter and the one by the string tighteners is the front string lifter.    

Don't suppose it really matters much what they're called as long as both folks doin' the discussin' are talkin' about the same part.

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I think there are two points of confusion here.  One is that dulcimers and guitars have traditionally had different construction. Whereas guitars clearly have both a bridge and a saddle, dulcimers sometimes have a saddle inserted directly in (or on, if it is floating) the extension of the fingerboard, and sometimes there is a single wooden piece (which may or may not be braced) with a broad bottom and a much narrower top, functioning as both a bridge and a saddle.  And recently many dulcimer luthiers have indeed been opting for guitar-type construction with a clear bridge and saddle.  Because of this variation, many people, myself included, almost never use the term "saddle" and just refer to the bridge regardless of whether we are referring to the part attached to the soundboard or the part with grooves through which the strings lay.  But I've been corrected by more than a few professional luthiers when I've used the term "bridge" instead of the more precise "saddle." 

As long as they understand what VSL I want and how far apart I want the strings, they can call it bubble gum and I don't care.

updated by @dusty: 05/09/20 06:34:41PM

How is the COVID-19 coronavirus affecting you?

OFF TOPIC discussions

Interestingly, over the past 2 weeks I've had three people whom I had never met contact me to take online dulcimer lessons.  None of them are within 2 hours of me, and one is in another state.  Perhaps people are becoming more comfortable with distance technology or perhaps people are just deciding that they might as well learn an instrument while sheltering at home.  I don't know the reasons, but it's nice to be able to share music at this time.

@Cindy-Stammich, we've been buying groceries for my mother-in-law, too.  She tells us what she needs and we leave it outside her door.  Once or twice, just to get out of the house, she has driven over to our place for the pickup, and yes, it is so hard not to hug her, but she is so vulnerable that I would never forgive myself if she got sick because we were careless in our contact with her.  I want her to be around when we get a vaccine, or enough tests for everyone, or however this ends.

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

OK.  I'm wrong.  40+ years of being a dulcimer person and not carrying about other instruments. 

Still doesn't change the fact that the dulcimer world calls the thing with notches the Bridge, and the distance between the nut and bridge the VSL not the 'scale'. 

Dulcimers are NOT guitars and should be discussed in dulcimer terms not guitar or lute or piano terms.

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Wikipedia is an excellent starting point for researching a subject.  However, this quote is taken directly from the Wikipedia page on Wikipedia:

 

Wikipedia does not consider itself to be a reliable source   . Many academics distrust Wikipedia   [23]    but may see it as a valuable jumping off point for research, with many of the reliable sources used in its articles generally seen as legitimate sources for more in-depth information and use in assigned papers. For this reason some academics suggest ‘Verifiability by respected sources’ as an indicator for assessing the quality of Wikipedia articles at the higher education level.   [24]

 

And just for the record, in its early days I submitted two short articles to Wikipedia that were published and I regularly donate to Wikipedia.

FOTMD Chat Room!

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

Just a reminder to all members that we have an excellent and friendly Chatroom right here on FOTMD.

Where does one find the Chat?  On mobile phones and tablets, go to your left hand mobile drop-down MENU, and scroll down for "Chat" near the bottom of the menu.
On non-mobile (regular) computers and laptops, look for the Chat icon button at bottom right of your screen ... it looks like this: Once you click the button, the chat window will open and you'll see more 'arrow buttons' along the left side of the window where you can minimize, widen, pop-out, or hide the chat window again.

Remember, you won't always find members actively sitting in the chat room when you visit.  But members do check in daily and they're always happy to greet newcomers to the chatroom!  Keep checking in and you'll bump into other live chatting members before long.

Often there are early morning members chatting over coffee and sharing their bird feeder photos, and sometimes there are folks chatting in the evening as well.  If you don't find anyone live there at the particular moment you visit, be sure to leave a "hello!" chat message before you leave and minimize the window ...and check back later to see if someone else responded to your chat message when they popped in too.

Our own friendly FOTMD moderator Jim Fawcett is often to be found checking in with our Chat area.  Jim's been a moderator and a new member Greeter here on FOTMD for 8 or 9 years now. Give him a high five when you're there! 

updated by @strumelia: 12/06/22 12:36:34PM

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Matt is totally correct with his definition of the 2 words bridge and saddle. Close to all dulcimers have a saddle. A saddle is a separate bearing surface and it is inserted into  a bridge (on mandolins, guitars etc). Hardly any dulcimers have a bridge, so the saddle is instead inserted into a groove on top of the dulcimers fret board just behind the strum hollow, or sometimes it just rests on the top and is moveable for intonation purposes. A tiny minority of dulcimers have a bridge that runs at a 90 degree angle to the fretboard; this bridge is usually glued directly onto to the soundboard, and a saddle is inserted into the top of the bridge.  Either way, the strings are positioned on top of the saddle. They are the facts and virtually 99.99999% of luthiers worldwide are aware of the correct definitions.

The vibrations go from the strings directly into the saddle, then into the bridge below or in the case of dulcimers into the fret board below, they are then transmitted into the soundboard, sides and back.

updated by @corvus: 05/09/20 11:54:43AM

How is the COVID-19 coronavirus affecting you?

OFF TOPIC discussions

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I have a minor quibble with Matt Berg's definition of Bridge and Saddle.  From the Wikipedia Bridge (Instrument) discussion:
A  bridge  is a device that supports the  strings  on a  stringed musical instrument  and transmits the  vibration  of those strings to another structural component of the instrument—typically a  soundboard , such as the top of a guitar or violin—which transfers the  sound to the surrounding air....  Bridges may consist of a single piece of material, most commonly wood for violins and acoustic guitars, that fits between the strings and the resonant surface. Alternatively, a bridge may consist of multiple parts. One common form is a bridge with a separate bearing surface, called a  saddle    
So, the Bridge is a vertical bit which holds the string up.  Dulcimers only have a Bridge.  Guitars and such have a vertical piece called a Bridge and a baseplate called a Saddle.  

Anchor location matters.  Remember that dulcimers do not produce their sound the way guitars do.  On guitars the top is so important to the creation of sound that it is called the soundboard.  On the dulcimer, the top is a minor aspect of sound creation because it is so small an area, and it is blocked from transmitting vibration by the massive longitudinal brace we call the fretboard.  As mentioned, most dulcimers anchor the strings away from the soundboard/top.  Most guitars anchor the strings on the Saddle which is attached to the soundboard.  Strings anchored on the soundboard must supply some vibration directly to the top.  Strings anchored off the top can only transmit vibration to the top via the bridge

 

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Mounting on the soundboard produces more over and undertones.  Mounting across the soundboard produces fewer.  If you are ever in a session with a Gallier, you can hear a clear difference.

Is the strumhollow redundant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I'd like to respectfully disagree with Dusty on one minor (yet still important, in my opinion) point.  While I certainly agree that one should not be "going so deep into the strings that you hit the fretboard" I do not agree that you should be "gliding along the top."  That depends on the tone you desire.  For the fullest tone, the dominant direction of the pick (or finger) should actually be *into* the fretboard (without going so deep as to hit the fretboard), rather than across the strings parallel to the plane of the top of the fretboard.  This is easier for many people to do with their fingers than with picks, and when playing individual notes or chord-melody style vs when strumming, but angling the pick as Dusty suggests actually helps facilitate this "down toward the fretboard" angle.

As always, these are *choices* available to the deliberate player.  Try adjusting the angle of your pick, sure, but also try adjusting the direction of your picking (towards the fretboard vs. parallel to the fretboard plane) and see what gives you the sound you want for the piece you're playing.  There's no "one size fits all."

Just my two cents.  :)

Kind regards,

Brian

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Here's a few confusion factors just for fun;

Consider that pressing a string on a fret creates a new VSL, so fretting at the 7th [or other] fret leaves an unplucked portion of the starting VSL. Sympathetic/mechanical vibration could cause buzzing or unwanted [harmonic] overtones on the unplucked portion. 

The ends of the string on each side of the designated/primary VSL form a sub-VSL and can be considered to produce a harmonic of the primary VSL.

The radii of the stop points are not being specified [just assumed] in association with the string properties, .020" R vs 2' R, one pretty sharp, one almost flat on an 1/8" bridge for example.

Etc. Etc. [Theory vs practicality vs experience vs opinion vs???]

Without precise conditions and measurements?????

What I hear [not very good] or do vs what someone else hears or does ends up being pretty subjective. My $95 kit sounded just as good to me as a classmates $500 custom MD.

Most all of it seems to work just fine.

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Yes, a zero fret seems to me to be an easy way to ensure a nice radius to your nut.

Interesting I have always just used the term bridge i guess because the book i learned from (which is not a credible book) says it.

I would say though that where the strings are anchored should only matter if you assume that the portion of string length outside the VSL matters, which seems like it may not be the case. I would wonder mechanistically how it is that where the string is mounted affects anything and what it may affect?

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

You won't go wrong with either. I have a Thomas built by John, and a Prichard built by Kevin. Both are wonderful.

updated by @kevin-r: 05/08/20 11:22:27PM

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

A vote for Kevin here, only because I have and love one of his instruments. It's a teardrop, though, not a Thomas.

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

And speaking of controversial, if you are comparing dulcimers to guitars, it helps to use proper luthier terms.  Technically, very few dulcimers have a "bridge".  A bridge bridges the internal bracing.  As most dulcimers either lack internal bracing or lack anything that spans them, most dulcimers do not have a true bridge. What dulcimer builder call a bridge, every other luthier calls a saddle.  However, as to part of your question.

Most guitars have the strings anchored to the soundboard.  Some dulcimers, Gallier in particular, anchor their strings in the same way.  The vast majority of dulcimers anchor their strings to the edge of the soundbox.  Comparing the string angle on a instrument with the strings anchored to the soundboard to one with the strings anchored to the soundbox is an apple to oranges comparison that will get you nowhere.

Jazz guitars anchor their strings to the edge of the sound box.  I read an article in American Lutherie in which the author tried various string angles to see which was best.  The author decided that a more shallow string angle led to a louder more jangly sound.  As the angle sharpened, the sound became clearer.  Beyond 15 degrees, the angle noticeably reduced the volume.  The author concluded that 15 degrees was the optimal angle.

As noted above guitars are not dulcimers and dulcimers are not guitars.  I build my instruments with the 15 degree angle at the saddle (bridge).  I like the sound, but sound is musician's choice.

For the headstock, I also use the 15 degree angle.  I have no particular reason for doing so other than it works for me.

And just for full disclosure, my dulcimers do use internal bracing, a true bridge and a floating fretboard.  So take anything I say with a grain of salt.  The attached picture is of a build I intend to finish this weekend.

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

IIRC lutes have such steep angled heads because the strings are gut, not metal, and that supposedly aids in keeping the string in tune.  

The string break angle that I learned from my building mentor was 14 degrees.  Where these numbers come from is a mystery.  

Your observations on rounded vs angled string breaks, particularly at the nut end are very interesting and validate the Zero Fret with a string guide as perhaps a better way to create the VSL. 

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

You won't got wrong.  I have one of John's Thomas replicas and really love it.  Both Dan and Booby make fabulous traditional dulcemores as well, in other styles.

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks! But I seek one dulcimer to rule them all... I don't really have the space or the money to start accumulating a collection, and if I did, they'd be (properly!) different styles. Don't worry about the photo, I think I have a pretty good idea of their appearance.

Anyway, having been in touch with both John and Kevin re timescales etc., I think I'm going to go with John.

archives section / Search?

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Hi Ted, just type in a key word or key phrase into the Search field - click the white 'magnifying glass' icon at the very top right corner of any page. That will search the entire contents of the site.

There are also similar search fields available in various sections of the site, such as our Video section, or Photo section. Those will search only within that section.  For example, type in "cat" in the photo section and you'll get various photos with the word cat in the title or description.

An 'archive' is a collection of older material that is stored in a separate location from the current material, perhaps stored by date. In that sense, there is no 'archive' here on FOTMD because all our content from ten years is all kept in the same place here- you just have to use the search feature to find the specific things you are interested in, or else just browse older discussions and older pages from the Video or Audio sections. It's all there for the browsing.

Hope that helps.

archives section / Search?

Site QUESTIONS ? How do I...?

Is there an archives section ? Or key word that I can lookup .

 

How is the COVID-19 coronavirus affecting you?

OFF TOPIC discussions

Thank you Lisa!  I know my mom would disagree with me, but when I say the blessing is all mine....

i truly feel that way!

Is the strumhollow redundant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

There are two different reasons for pick clack. One is the sound of the pick flipping as it strikes a string.  That sound is much more pronounced with thinner picks than with heavier ones.  And some pick material also makes less noise than others.

The other sound is the pick hitting the fretboard.  But that is why people talk about technique.  Your pick should not be going so deep into the strings that you hit the fretboard. Rather, you should be gliding along the top. Addiitonally, angling the pick so it is not parallel to the string but only hits it on the side (for righties, that means the left side going out and the right side coming in) also reduces the noise the pick makes and helps avoid getting in between the strings to hit the fretboard.

Personally, I enjoy heavy picks that allow for much greater timing accuracy, so I have little problem with that first sound.  And when I record or perform I use a ridiculously expensive pick that someone gave me which produces almost no sound at all.

But I still sometimes get sloppy with my picking and hit the fretboard, especially if I get to playing pretty fast. That's one reason I like my McCafferty with the extended strum hollow since I don't have to worry about my less-than-perfect strumming technique.

There's nothing wrong with adding some percussive sounds as we play, but it ought to be on purpose, and as Irene says, we might not want it on every song we play.

Is the strumhollow redundant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

@Irene asked "Tell me how you can play with a pick and NOT get that flappy flap flap?  It's great percussion, but I don't want percussion on all my music with the dulcimore."  @ken-hulme gave a method, but if that doesn't match the way you strum it could be hard to change habits.  Felt picks don't make sounds on songs that don't fit percussive pick noise.  

(I know, I know, it's not strumhollow related & I was treading dangerously outside this discussion's topic.)  

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I have a K Messenger Thomas reproduction. He used an early 1930's Thomas from which he took his pattern. It looks and sounds might good. It is really sweet in Ebb.  I have seen and heard J Knopf's Thomas reproductions. They as well look great and sound great. As John said they are a bit different but both accurate to the Thomas dulcimores. You won't go wrong with either.Why not get one of each? I can post a picture of the Messenger Thomas if you like.

How is the COVID-19 coronavirus affecting you?

OFF TOPIC discussions

Cindy that's great that you are able to support and help your mother this way.

My uncle was 95 when he passed away this past December, and all the way until his last year or two, he and my aunt took a one or two mile walk every day.  A great way to stay active for older folks especially!  They always called it their 'hike' even after it had slowed way down as they got older.   :)

VSL Breakpoint Angles, Radiuses, and Excess String Lengths

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

This might end up being a controversial topic, since I cant seem to find a lot of agreement on it elsewhere, but I'd like to know what y'all know and have observed about how much the headstock angle, length of the headstock, radius of the nut, and bridge breakpoint angle, radius of the bridge, and excess of string between the bridge and tailpins affect tone, volume, and sustain.

My research has indicated to me that people just dont agree for the most part on these questions. The highly credible @Ken-Hulme said in a forum post *"Position of bridge relative to the string pins or break over the end (how much string is aft of the bridge) affects sustain"* Lutes have an extremely sharp headstock angle, apparently due to the desire to ensure that the strings have a rigid boundary to their VSL. Brian May's Red Special has such a subtle headstock angle it almost appears that the string is not bent over the nut at all. One local luthier has personally told me that a 10 degree headstock angle is necessary to ensure that the string is held in place and anything past that is just builders preference. Gibson has some guitars with infamously sharp headstock angles, which their website claims improves tone. My friend Allen took a board and stretched several strings across it at different angles, and told me that a 6 degree angle was the lowest he could avoid buzzing at. (interestingly I looked at my acoustic guitars and noticed both of them have a <10 degree angle that they stretch over the bridge at) He is much stronger than me at physics, so I'm inclined to believe his explanation that you need enough downward force on the VSL boundary to be greater than any upward force from the string's vibration, and any additional force past that is redundant. Makes sense to me since that's the case with fretting; you only need just enough pressure to keep the string in contact with the fret, adding more pressure past that does not give extra sustain, tone, or volume, so why would the bridge and nut be different?

One key difference that has come up in my own experiments is that in the past I often cut my nut and bridge at a straight angle (whereas frets are obviously rounded on their tops) and noticed buzzes, and abnormally quiet sound. It was explained to me that I should not expect a steel string to bend at an angle, rather at a radius.  When I went back and cut new bridges with a radius past the break point the difference was night and day in terms of increased volume and resolving buzzing issues. In the attached image the black objects represent 'bridges' the red lines represent 'strings'. The first diagram shows a 'bridge' with very minimal contact, which I believe puts tremendous amounts of extra stress on the bridge and the string. The second shows better contact but still a sharp angle at the breakpoint, which i believe can cause intonation issues and buzzing since the string might not actually be able to bend all the way to match the angle of the bridge without over-applying string tension, and therefore the breakpoint may be further back on the bridge than intended. The third diagram is what I currently do more or less, which is round off the side of the bridge and nut that is outside the VSL so that the string has a lot of contact and no sharp angles. I have never paid attention to the length of string outside the VSL, I have always assumed that if you have adequate downward force on the bridge and nut, that anything past them is irrelevant. A lot to think about but I'm sure plenty of you have thought about these things before! I'd love some more perspective

updated by @nate: 05/10/20 02:34:31PM

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Many thanks for that clarification John. I thought that was probably the explanation. So hard to compare appearances, and sound for that matter, given the inherent differences between cameras, angles, recording conditions etc.!

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hi, Magictime!  This is John Knopf.  You asked if the bouts on my Thomas dulcimores are the same width, and they are NOT.       My cheap camera distorts images, sometimes badly.  I've noticed that myself. The upper bouts are narrower by nearly an inch.  I think Kevin used a different Thomas dulcimore for measurements in making his reproduction.  As you may know, Uncle Ed didn't make any two of his dulcimores alike, but there are many similarities.  So - - Kevin makes a great replica of Thomas dulcimore "A", and I make great replicas of Thomas dulcimore "B".  The sound is very similar.  I hope this clears things up for you.

Thomas reproductions (Messenger/Knopf/other?)

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I'm weighing my options for ordering a meantone fretted Thomas replica. I'm in the UK and as far as I can ascertain, nobody over here is building such things for sale, whereas at least two American luthiers with excellent reputations specialise in this type of historic replica - John Knopf and Kevin Messenger. Is there anything members would say in terms of comparing and contrasting the two? For instance, looking at pictures I have the impression that the upper and lower bouts are almost the same size on John's, whereas the lower bout is noticeably wider on Kevin's - is this correct? Are they based on earlier and later Thomas patterns perhaps? Any effect on sound? Anything else people would say? Any builders I'm overlooking? (I'm aware of Dan Cox and Bobby Ratliff, but as of right now I'm leaning towards a reproduction rather than simply a traditional instrument.) 

How is the COVID-19 coronavirus affecting you?

OFF TOPIC discussions

I have been working from home (a real challenge - and I don't even have kids under foot).  Early Tuesday mornings I do our grocery shopping as well as my mom's.  I deliver her groceries (only to the front porch).  Then we walk.  It's amazing that we haven't missed a walk in all the weeks we have been doing this!  She is 87 and still walks a mile every day!  The hardest part is leaving without a hug!

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

That is very insightful, thank you Grant!

Reading your perception of the differences it's pretty apparent to me that I am not at a level of knowledge yet to be trying to add in other equidistant strings. I think at the core, I am wanting to move towards all kinds of changes to improve my sound including chromatic scales, extra strings, and more elaborate courses, but probably the only one I am ready for yet is  more elaborate courses. I think at this moment I am mainly just considering any ways i can make the sound itself fuller or prettier, not necessarily ways to give it more notes.....yet!

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thank you for such a comprehensive response Ken. I guess I am mostly asking about different tunings to the courses but also dont really know if it makes more sense to just add extra strings in equidistantly. I'll try to notate the tunings more coherently going forward, I was not aware of the correct way to write them.

And yes 12 strings are a bit of a challenge for me but specifically my hands have gotten used to the freedom of sliding around and only having to stay over 1 string per finger while they do. So i have gotten used to hand positions that put pressure in the exact place on the string that I need, and when another one is added in, my muscle memory doesnt compensate for having to move my finger slightly to the side well enough. That being said if I can find a tuning that has a sound I really like, it would be a pleasure to put in the practice.

Anyway, I am very curious  if you can still use DAd tabs with the tunings you mention? Will they still sound correct? I have a hard time understanding how our ears interpret these intervals but intuitively it seems like if your melody string was Ad it would change some chords. Is this the case? Also if the middle string is tuned 'Aa' (which I think is A3a4) then the highest pitch open string would be the middle correct? Does this affect the way the sound is perceived if the melody you are fretting is lower in pitch than the drone, instead of typically always being higher? Again, to be clear, this is all coming from an uneducated perspective.

updated by @nate: 05/06/20 02:49:11PM

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Interesting question Nate! First about 6 string dulcimers and things: I have a mcspadden baritone with 6 strings. Before I restrung it, it was A2A3-E3E4-A3A3. I also thought it was a little annoying to play, since the pairs of strings are not equal in size. But I thought it had a very rich sound with the octave courses.

Then you're also talking about some 4 string ideas. I think those are fun. However, going off what Ken was saying, a 4 string dulcimer is not really a "trational" dulcimer. You'll have to do more chords usually and be more careful what strings you play.

A few different tunings:
D-F#-A-d:
I haven't done much with this but I think most of the time, folks are using this to access more chromatic notes on a diatonic instrument. If you're not familiar with chromatic stuff, this probably won't be very intuitive.

D-G-A-D:
This is the first 4 string tuning I really tried. I also played Rondo Alla Turca with this tuning. I think it's more intuitive, because both DAd and DGd are hidden in there. I also like it because you can get more 4 note chords in a tighter range, and have extra strings for fast melodies. However, this tuning is harder with strumming because one of the middle strings will often get in the way.

D-A-d-a:
I of course like this tuning. It's got a larger range, but with four strings more 7th chords and other 4 note chords are avaliable. Another observation to help playing in this tuning: the higher three strings, (A-d-a) are actually the same intervals as DGd tuning. If you know DGd chord shapes, you can play them there.

One thing to think about is what you want extra strings for. Do you want to play songs you already know, just with a different sound; or do you want to dive into a completely new tuning and different techniques?

Grant

Is the strumhollow redundant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Yes, unfortunately I had my doubts that the spaces would be big enough, though I would say it may still be useful for picking styles where the pinky is used to anchor the hand in place. Of course I eventually intend to practice enough that it stops being a concern, but since I build all my own dulcimers, I frequently indulge on 'crutch' modifications that help the sound along in the meantime. Not to correct the mistakes in my technique, but to correct the sound even in the event of a mistake so that it's more appealing to listeners while I am still learning and often mess up! 

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

You don't seem to be talking about adding additional strings, just about changing the same six strings to different tunings.  Two different things.  

FWIW -- mostly we refer to tunings from the bass string to the melody, not melody to bass the way you write them...  Tunings are usually written  DAA, DAd, etc, where the lower case letters show a note an octave higher -- d versus D

Remember, the dulcimer is a 3 course instrument -- melody, middle drone, bass drone -- not a 6 course instrument like a guitar.  Any course can have 1, 2 or even 3 strings, but we still retain the concept of melody, middle drone and bass drone strings.  MOST dulcimer tunings involve the bass and middle drones being tuned a fifth apart, with the melody string(s) tuned to create different "scales" as the guitarists call them.  D-A or C-G or G-D are fifths apart 1-5.  Tuning the melody strings to different notes gives us scales-- 1-5-5. 1-5-7, 1-5-8, 1-5-4 etc.  -- which start at different frets.  

If you think strumming a 3-course dulcimer with 2 strings per course (total 6 strings) is "very cumbersome to get used to fretting..." and you're not getting "all that much fuller of a sound" -- them you're really in trouble if you try to strum a 6-course doubled string instrument like a 12 string guitar.  

A 3-courses double strung (6 string dulcimer) tuned with some octave pairs and other combinations are not uncommon.  Bass courses strung and tuned Dd are very common.  So are melody course tuned Ad.  Thus you have Dd-AA-Ad.  Once in awhile you'll find someone experimenting with octave tuned middle drones Aa and you could have Dd- Aa-Ad.  Any of these octave tuned couplets would need something other than the ordinary set of dulcimer string, of course.

Is the strumhollow redundant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Terry McCafferty makes what he calls an "extended" strumhollow.  Bascically he cuts off the fretboard a few frets early to creater a longer and more usable strumhollow.  How many of us actually fret those little tiny frets above 14 anyway?  Take a look at his instruments and you'll see what I'm talking about.  I love playing with the extra long strumhollow.

It might be that @Natebuildstoys saw Stephen with one of Terry's dulcimers.  He's been playing them a lot the last few years.

 

Is the strumhollow redundant?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I think you're tilting at windmills here. 

Dishing out between frets to make 'strum-able' spaces has been tried; and not very successfully.  The lengths of the spaces are too small and it's too hard to stay in that space as you strum.  Hardly anyone keeps their strums within a one inch zone! 

If it were worth the time and effort, you'd see all kinds of builders using the idea in their builds.  

IMHO it's also gonna be ugly.  Also, to me, it's too much work for virtually no gain.  "..consistent sound quality with less effort and technique... would maybe reduce the damage" Consistent sound quality is the result of good strumming technique.  Sloppy technique results in damaged fretboards and tops.  Learning how to hold the pick and strum with it is the second most important skill to learn with the dulcimer, or other stringed instruments.  First skill is learning to fret the string(s) cleanly.  No facet of instrument design can truly compensate for poor playing techniques.

Adding Extra Strings to Courses

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I'd like to put more strings on my next dulcimer. I have a 6 string dulcimer which is tuned dd-AA-DD. Very cumbersome to get used to fretting those extra strings and not all that much 'fuller' of a sound in my opinion. @Granto has one which I've seen in his videos that is tuned D3 A3 D4 A4 which I'd love to do eventually but for now I gotta study theory more so I can actually get some use out of the extra range. The same goes for adding an f# string as in d-A-F#-D Someone mentioned on here a dulcimer tuned dd-a-Dd with a D4 string running in course with the D3. That's hard to wrap my head around.I am aware that 12 string guitars often use 'octave tuned' courses, but It seems to me that this might get in the way. For example 'dyad' chords which only use the middle and bass string would still have those high notes that you are meant to be specifically avoiding playing. Also I'd imagine the bridge would have to be cut bizarrely for better intonation. What do y'all think? Have you heard dulcimers tuned like this? Are you aware of specific issues in building or playing that relate to adding extra strings? What do yall think is an ideal 'extra' string or strings to add to a dd-a-D dulcimer? Finally what about these two extremely radical tuning ideas: d4d4-A3A3-D3D2 as well as d4D3-A3A2-D3D2 basically, all three strings running in course with their lower octave. Conceptually i would think it would sound good but I have no education in music or building so It might very well be muddy or chaotic or impractical. I'd love to hear thoughts!

updated by @nate: 05/07/20 11:38:18AM