Forum Activity for @kusani

Thumb Pick And Strumming

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

My 'go to' picks are:  https://www.amazon.com/Dava-6024-Grip-Tip/dp/B00154OJOI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1522951567&sr=8-2&keywords=dava+grip+tip+pick

Thumb Pick And Strumming

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

I guess neither of us took to the Herdim picks, huh?  Let me point out that you are experimenting with different materials, gauges, and designs all at once.  You might try to limit the variables.  For example, try to isolate the material you like before deciding what thickness works best.  If you try four different picks but each one is different in shape, material, and thickness, you might not figure out why you prefer a specific one. 

Since you mention it, let me say that my pick of choice is the Dunlop tortext pick, but I use the standard size, not the III.  When I first started on the dulcimer I was using the yellow .73, then I moved to the green .88, and recently I've moved to the 1.0 blue ones.  But I like heavier strings, and in general as string gauges get bigger so will the gauges of your pick.  I like the tortex material, but find I need to moisten my fingertips a bit.  You will often see me lick my fingers and then wipe them on my jeans to get just the right amount of moisture.  It's probably not a good look on stage, but it's better than losing control of a pick and having it fly into the audience! 

The only picks I've found that I prefer to the Dunlop Tortex are the Blue Chip picks, but those are way beyond my budget.

Thumb Pick And Strumming

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Thanks, Dusty. I have tried all three colours of Herdim picks, Red, Yellow and Blue and none suits me. One Yellow pick developed a small nick at the side and had to be thrown away after only a little use. I have a number of thumb picks left over from my attempt at learning the autoharp and today received three new lots.

The new ones are Dunlop Tortex III Green 0.88, Yellow 0.73 and some Gibson Standard Guitar picks. I also have some 0.85  and 1.5 Blue Maxgrip ones. ( I have goose quills but they have been locked away together with my lovely DAA Charles Hagen dulcimer until I started making progress with DAD. )

All I need now is some peace and quiet to sit down and play. I have had three hectic days and my dulcimers have not left their cases.  Hopefully, I can strum away tonight 

updated by @nigelbleddfa: 04/05/18 01:11:07PM

Thumb Pick And Strumming

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Hi, @nigelbleddfa .  I would encourage you to continue experimenting with different picks. Note that in addition to different shapes (teardrop, triangle, etc.) and design (thumb hook, hole in the middle, etc.), picks come in different kinds of materials and, most importantly, different thicknesses.  You refer to your old Herdim pick as "floppy," which leads me to think you were using a pick that was too thin and you have found more success with a heavier gauge pick.  As I have been playing the dulcimer I have moved to slightly heavier and heavier picks, and one reason I like the heavier picks is that it makes it easier to pluck single strings.  I personally did not like the Herdim picks (too pointy), but I played guitar for decades before discovering the dulcimer, so my own pick preferences were mostly developed before I ever held a dulcimer.  But you might revisit the Herdim picks and choose one that's a heavier gauge than the one you started with.  Again, keep exploring different options.  Eventually you will settle on the best pick for you.

updated by @dusty: 04/05/18 12:02:28PM

Does anyone recognize this dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Jim, I'm sending you these now because you are so eager! But they are pretty dark, so if you want me to try again later today I can. Mine clearly says H.A. Fleming 7-17-71 inside-- nothing William about it! But you did some good sleuthing to solve that mystery! Hope these help sate your curiosity!

Thumb Pick And Strumming

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Thanks, Rob, I have fallen into that trap already and am waiting for the delivery of three different picks this morning. 

The Bumble Bee is a pick made by Fred Kelly and is a black and yellow thumb pick.

updated by @nigelbleddfa: 04/05/18 06:31:57AM

Thumb Pick And Strumming

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Nigel, as others have mentioned, picks are personal.  I have a bag of picks of all kinds in my case, most of which I never use.  Jerry Rockwell turned me on to "Pointless Picks," round ones that I really like for some things.  I have a V-Pick "Bing" for use when I need to "stand out."  Some Hercos including the one Ken H mentioned and some Dunlops.  Even tho' I have a couple in the bag, I hate floppy picks.  Floppier the pick, the less control you have.  Bottom line: try out a bunch (another fav of mine is the Star Pick, the green ones) and buy more of what you like and put the others in a bag.  When you find other dulcimer players who didn't bring a pick you can whip out the bag and say, "Well, here's a few."  LOL

 

Thumb Pick And Strumming

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Some wound strings (phosphor bronze, flat wound, etc.) may be easier on your fingers if you are finger picking, but the unwound strings are like unwound guitar strings.  What you might want to think about Ann, are thin leather thimbles which would protect your nails but still allow you sensitive feel of the strings.  

Thumb Pick And Strumming

Playing and jamming difficulties...HELP ME!

Nigelbleddfa,

I read your posting.  We are similar "new players." What is a Bumble Bee pick?

I am very new to FOTMD. As I am learning, watching You-Tube instructions, I want to play with a soft approach.  To me that means with the fingers of the right hand.  I also play classical guitar and do not want to destroy my fingernails. Several questions cross my mind.  Are some strings easier to play with fingers? I thought I read something about that a few months ago and cannot find anything.  I know some people use finger and thumb picks.  I would love to hear some reviews. 

Possible Source of Wood for Instruments

General mountain dulcimer or music discussions

I was lucky to find a home (Middle School music classroom) for my mother's beloved piano.  Shortly afterwards I learned how lucky I was.  Read an article about how many people are finding it impossible to even give away pianos.  People are even paying to have them go to landfills!  The article did wonder about the wood being recycled to make new instruments. 

Yes, they're heavy to move, but if you can manage that,  maybe you wonder how to find unwanted pianos.  If you have never discovered Freecycle, Google it and subscribe.  You can post a request for people to contact you -- I would suggest mentioning your wanting to recycle the wood to make dulcimers.  Probably once a year would be acceptable to post the request.  You can sign up for more than one Freecycle group as they are grouped by geographical area.  I would add just probably one at a time so you don't get swamped.

I am not likely to ever build a dulcimer, but this sounds like a great way to find beautiful wood rather than let it rot in a landfill.

updated by @lois-sprengnether-keel: 10/27/19 12:02:25PM

Does anyone recognize this dulcimer?

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Jennifer and Linda, I've done some more research and am convinced beyond doubt we all have Bill Fleming Dulcimers.

First I checked the source Linda referenced and came up with this:

=====

Directory of Contemporary American Musical Instrument Makers
Copyright 1981
Pages 44-45

H.A. Fleming
Rt. 2, Gatlinburg, Tenn. 37738
PT  1967  Active  1 emp.  MTO
Historical Brochure 12/74
•Appalachian  dulcimer Over 50 to
date  †•Steel-string guitar  1-10
date  †•Mandolin  1-10 to date  †

=====

So here's a Fleming based in Gatlinburg, quite possibly active in 1981.  But the guy I met in 1970 called himself "Bill" I thought - or was I suffering bad memory after 48 years?  Since "Bill" was no spring chicken when I met him, on a whim I did a grave site search on Fleming with Gatlingburg as the location.  In pretty short order I had my man.  See the photo below, it explains everything!

You were both right, the signature on all three of our dulcimers is H.A. Fleming.  And I was right after all - he did  go by "Bill".  His full name was Harold Anthony William Fleming.  Like me, his nickname was not based on his first name - whoda thunk he'd base it upon a third given name?

The grave site search link is:  https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45622428/harold-anthony_william-fleming  You'll see my findings are pretty much "set in stone".

Linda, I'm just dying to see photos of your Fleming.

Jennifer, that rendition of The Ash Grove is breathtaking!  You coaxed a sweet rendition otta that old box. {p.s. on second look that back does appear to be book-match after all.}

 

Jim

updated by @jim-hedman: 04/04/18 04:12:26PM

Strings!

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hey @notsothoreau, I agree with what Richard has said.  Initially follow whatever recommendations the luthier has for your instrument.  But you should also experiment a little to discover your own preferences.  You may find that you want one or more strings a little heavier or lighter than what the luthier suggested.  And you may find that different dulcimers respond differently to different string gauges.  Learn what you prefer for each of your dulcimers and then you can buy single strings in bulk.

As Richard says, in general, nickel-wound strings have a brighter sound and bronze-wound strings have a mellower sound.  I much prefer bronze-wound strings, but that is a matter of personal preference.  I also use so-called "squeekless" strings for my bass strings. They reduce the sound of your fingers sliding up and down.  If you play in a drone style and don't fret the bass string, that is obviously not an issue for you.  And some people don't like some of the squeekless strings because those that are coated with a plastic to fill in the grooves supposedly have a muted sound (something my ears don't hear).

You might also want to make use of the Strothers String Gauge Calculator .  You enter in the VSL (vibrating string length, or the distance between the nut and the bridge) and the note you want the open string to play.  The calculator will then estimate a good string gauge to use.  Note that the calculator errs on the light side, so feel free to try out stings one or two notches heavier than indicated.

Just think of this as one area you can explore to help develop your own preferences and thereby, your own sound.

updated by @dusty: 04/01/18 01:25:21PM

Strings!

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Starting out it is best to follow manufacturer recommendations. As you discover the sound you prefer there is nothing wrong with experimenting and strings are inexpensive enough before telling the spouse you need another dulcimer to get the sound you prefer.

Nickel vs bronze vs phosphor bronze wound. So many decisions about strings. There is some difference. Many consider the nickel wound to be somewhat brighter. With aged ears and hearing loss I doubt I could hear much difference. Some folks use plain steel rather than wound for the bass string. Ken H. on this site is one who does that.

Juststrings.com offers single strings in loop end or ball end. Their website is very complete and it may take some exploring to find what you need. They are very helpful by phone or email if you have questions. I tend to purchase all ball end.  A couple of snips with wire nippers on the ball will break the soft material and then you have a loop end.

Keep asking questions. That is the way to learn.

Strings!

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I've read the recommendations for string gauges and know that they can be purchased individually, rather than as sets. I'm interested in a few recommendations. Is there a difference in nickel wound vs bronze wound bass strings? If the dulcimer maker recommends (or sells) certain strings is it best to go with that recommendation?

I suspect it's useful, as a beginner, to experiment with different strings, but it would be nice to have a bit more focus than I have right now. 

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hehe, it looks like I missed the mark in second guessing your melody string gauge. In my assumption of 14 gauge melody I should have pointed out that it was wonder that you didn't snap it while tuning to "d". Nevertheless, there was hopefully some good information in my last post.

Should you decide to try D-A-dd again you might try 10 gauge.  Many do, though making a trade-off, sacrificing some volume and tonal balance for play-ability.  With my five-strings I've been using D'Addario five string banjo sets:  tuned D-A-d-dd, with corresponding gauges of 23bw-16-12-10,10 (bw = phosphor bronze).  Sometimes I swap out that 12 for a 10 but if I retain it I have the option of going to D-A-A-dd with less volume and tonal compromise.

Be careful about that next dulcimer or you may be afflicted with the dreaded DAD (dulcimer acquisition disorder). I had it for about a year before going cold turkey at the eight count.  Since then I've lurked on this site off and on as a source of information for various problems. I've only recently started to post here and for some reason the DAD bug is gnawing at me again big-time. In fact, I took a shot at an e-bay item yesterday, but my sniping skills were rusty and I lost out to another sniper who got it at very good price.  Had my single bid gone through in time its hard to say what the final price would have been (its dependent on the automatic bid limit each bidder sets for his/her self). Well, I don't want to go off on another tangent so I'll close with......

Happy Easter!

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

This was a set of D'Addario dulcimer strings, which are 12,14 and 22. This dulcimer has just two pegs on the tail piece. It looks to be a somewhat action, based on the nickel/dime test. I was told by another member that Dulcimer Factory dulcimers tend to have a somewhat high action. Back n the day, when I was trying to learn guitar, I did have some instuments that were difficult to play because of the action. As a beginner with an inexpensive, unknown instrument, you tend to expect the worst

In thinking about it later, it makes sense that higher string tension would feel like a higher action. And I do suspect it was originally tuned for D-A-A, as it's from the late 90s and that would have been the popular tuning.

I am working on getting a better quality dulcimer and I don't think it will hurt to have a dulcimer for each tuning. Might even make it easier for me to learn each tuning, by associating a tuning with a specific instrument.

I did think it might be useful to mention, when running into problems with an instrument. And I will likely experiment with different strings as well. For now, it's just a relief to be able to play without as much struggle.

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

notsothoreau, Assuming that the melody strings were not replaced prior to re-tuning this would be expected because you lowered the melody pitch five semi-tones in dropping the melody string(s) from "d" to "A", thus lowering string tension significantly.  A typical string set for a D-A-AA tuning would be 22w-14-14,14 gauge strings ("w" meaning wound string and gauge meaning x/1000").  String tensions would lie approximately within the range of 13.5 to 16.5 pounds.  If the melody strings in this set up were raised from an "A" to a "d" you can appreciate that the tension would rise above the optimum, making it harder to fret (with a perceived "higher" action) and given that the sectional density of  the string is above its optimum it would not "sound right" (part of that would be the tension's affect on intonation relative to the middle string of the same gauge being under a lesser load).

If by "action" you mean the physical properties of string to fret crown gaps, it may be that your dulcimer's action is not at all that bad and the perception of "high action" in D-A-dd is due to the out-of-spec tension increase of the melody pair.  Your re-tuning of the melody strings to "A" for a D-A-AA tuning did not affect the tension of the middle and drone strings, thus the perception of improved action rests solely on the lowered tension of the melody pair.

There's nothing wrong with a D-A-AA tuning.  Many use nothing else.  About the only downside is that D-A-dd has become more popular in general - meaning tabs and sheet music are more readily available (nevertheless there is ample material for the more traditional tuning).

Should you decide at a future date to give D-A-dd another go, consider changing the melody strings to 12 or even 10 gauge.  The melody string tension will be close to what you have with the current 14 gauge strings tuned to "A" so the 10 or 12 gauge "d" strings should ring better than before.  You still have the option of tuning melody strings down from "d" to "A", but this time around the tension will be the lowest you've experienced so far, with the downside being a loss of volume and tonal balance (whether or not that is "significant" is primarily a matter of individual perception).

I hope this has been helpful to you and that I did not lose you in trying to explain some of the physics of the issue.  No problem at all with your chiming in here.  In fact, you brought up another aspect of things affecting action and intonation which pretty much has been the topic of this thread.

updated by @jim-hedman: 04/01/18 12:36:45AM

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I am a rank beginner so probably should not chime in here. But my Dulcimer Factory dulcimer has high action and is a bit uncomfortable to play in D-A-d. I just convinced myself to tune it to D-A-A and it's like it is a different instrument. It's much easier to play.

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Matt, thanks for adding your "two cents" (man, that cracked me up!).  Your comments on nut and bridge material were interesting and your advice may come into play on an intonation nightmare project I've been working on, off and on, for a while. In this case I had to fill in the fixed bridge slot and fashion a floating bridge to remedy a VSL issue and replace the nut with one fabricated with a rounded back-sloping crown to correct for insufficient spacing between the nut and first fret.  In both cases the material used was walnut, which is aesthetically pleasing and made a remarkable intonation improvement.  Eventually, I may follow your suggestion for use of bone to see if the tonal quality can be improved after some other issues are resolved.  I'd love to go into more detail but I don't want to hijack Stewart's thread and this particular instrument really deserves a dedicated post.  As best I can, I've tried to stick to action and various intonation issues, pointing out that more than one issue can simultaneously be in play and that the interplay can be confusing enough to drive you up the wall!

Stewart, I'm glad to see you've made some progress!  Now that  you're getting the VSL matter nailed down you may wish to evaluate fret spacing.  There are at least two ways to do this.

First, you can use your electronic tuner to check for pitch error (in cents) at each fret for as high as you care to go.  Record those errors on paper and look for a pattern.  If the sharp/flat pattern follows a consistent trend you may be able to address it.  If it is random, you may end up having to live with what you've got.  At least you'll know where the "sweet spots" are on the fret board.  Errors of three cents or under are generally considered tolerable.

Second, try this fret position calculator page: http://www.liutaiomottola.com/formulae/fret.htm#mozTocId169477 - in particular, the one entitled "Calculating Fret Spacing for All Frets".  Bear in mind that the fret numbers there refer to a chromatic instrument - like a guitar, so they are really semi-tones.  Thus, the first fret on a "standard" dulcimer is at two semi-tones, the second fret at four semi-tones, the third fret at five semi-tones etc.  Input the VSL you have settled on then compare the resultant calculated nut to fret measurements to what exists on your fret board.  If the discrepancies are random you're more or less "SOL" and will be forced to look for a compromise that considers the "sweet spots" as described above.  In the quest for this compromise you can input trial VSLs and look for a better overall agreement of calculated versus actual values then verify with your tuner - or in other words you may get a feel for the VSL that the builder cut the frets slots for.

So much for random pitch errors. Now lets consider a more consistent pattern.  With both approaches if the first fret is flat according to the tuner (or short-measure according to the calculator) and the error diminishes as you progress to the seventh fret, the nut to fret intervals are too small (though progressively better as you approach seventh fret).  The cause is the nut being too close to the bridge/saddle relative to the fret layout.  I had this problem x2 (a courting dulcimer) which was resolved by fabricating a new nuts with rounded crown and built in back slope favoring the peg box side.  I don't know if the issue was builder error or shrinking of the fret board over time.  As the builder has some notoriety, all my modifications to date have been totally reversible so I can return the instrument to its "as found" state - but that would relegate it to a "wall hanger" due to those serious intonation issues.

For the opposite case, decreasing sharpness, you'd need to move the nut towards the bridge/saddle. You could test this out by fabricating a shim to be placed against the nut on the fret board side (conceptually, sort of a "zero fret").  The required thickness of the shim being determined by trial and error.  If you find an adequate correction you could craft a nut that fit the nut groove, but had a projection that duplicated your shim correction. Or, of course, you could re-route the groove to widen it by taking off material from the fret board and use a standard nut profile - but this would not be a reversible measure, so I would not go there unless I was sure there was no collector value to the instrument.  Well, I guess I've beat that horse enough for now.

=====

Update:  I should have noted that changing the nut to first fret distance also has a corresponding effect on the open string VSL.  Therefore, make about half the nut adjustment you think you need, readjust the bridge position and recheck for pitch errors.  You just may nail it on the first try.  If not rinse and repeat until the sequential pitch errors disappear into the random fret errors (which will most always be present - its just matter of degree).

=====

Randy, I feel your pain, but think of the nickle as an impromptu 0.077" feeler gauge. As you approach that target mark the nickle becomes more stable.  And this is more of an adjustment by feel rather than a visual event. As for the feeler gauge for first fret clearance, what I'm looking at is more of a general purpose flat-blade set of 17 gauges.  Although this set covers standard spark plug gaps it is not truly a spark plug gauge which would typically have at least one end of the handle equipped with bent wire gauges and, in general, fewer blades. I found my candidate on the O'Reilly Auto Parts page ( https://www.oreillyauto.com/shop/b/tools---equipment-16488/tools-17919/mechanics-tools-16816/feeler-gauges-17312/c5e524a4a742) shown as "Performance Tool Mini Thickness Gauge".  I've considered feeler gauges in the past but until my exchange with Ken, I had not taken the time to dope out what the dime as used in the nickle/dime method translated to in terms of actual string to fret crown gap. Knowledge is empowering.

updated by @jim-hedman: 04/01/18 01:48:04AM

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I've never understood how to balance a nickel on the 7th fret and look under there and see some measurement.
Jim your 'spark plug' feeler gauge is a great idea!

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

In the meantime, at least it is playable.

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I messed with it to about 12, but I'm going to be gone for most of the weekend! It may be a combination of the fret pattern too. I did get it to play by flattening the the melody string... For 40.00, I'm not looking for miracles haha! I will look back at everyone's advice this week and see if I can work on it.

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The nickel dime method works with the medium fret wire from Stewmac or C. Gitty reasonably well,...,except when I build a bass dulcimer.  Higher action is needed with heavier strings.

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

When moving from a fixed saddle/bridge to a movable saddle/bridge, I have found that a standard (using the term loosely, Jim) acoustic guitar nut works very well.  If you use a true bone nut, you will be quite surprised by the improved tone of your instrument over any type of wood or plastic used.  Depending on the manufacture, you may need to lower the action on the new saddle/bridge.

I would say that is my two cents worth, but maybe I should kick in a nickel or a dime?

Advice on crack repair

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Hi Barb!

Yes, I was very careless and didn't hydrating my instruments. Dulcimer was here for 3 years and we had dry air all this time, but this winter became crucial for dulcimer :( It's a good lesson for me.

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Stewart, now that you've got a "brute force" floating bridge, were you able to adjust it for a true octave at seventh fret? If you have, experiment by playing a harmonic tapping above the seventh fret. If you don't get a true ring, slightly change the point where you tap with your finger until you find it.  Now compare the point of the best harmonic with the position of the seventh fret.  The difference between the two, if present, is primarily due to the effect of the high action.

In setting the bridge according to a fretted seventh fret you are actually adjusting for the midpoint of the open string VSL with compensation for the string stretch caused by fretting pressure.  Aside of playability, the point of improving action is to minimize the amount of compensation required (less stretch = less compensation).

If you followed this, I'll add that some would advise setting the bridge position at the point where the mid-string harmonic and the position of the seventh fret agree. If you do this, a fretted seventh fret will go sharp to a degree correlated with the action.  In effect this method sets the bridge position without compensation for fretting pressure.  Thus, good action minimizes the stretch error.  I have no issue with this method, but in the end both methods should be understood as you may end up with the best compromise between the two as suggested by your own ears.

updated by @jim-hedman: 03/31/18 07:00:10AM

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ken, the purpose in my previous post was not to belittle you, much less foment an argument.  But since, in so many words, you clearly implied that I don't have a clue I find myself pretty much forced to revisit what I said and see if we can maybe end up on the same page.

Firstly, I am in no way confused about the nickle and dime set-up method - not in the slightest.  I, in fact, understand it well enough to see an issue with using a dime as described; although I acknowledge that in most cases it will work - especially with vintage instruments built in an era when fret profile options were probably more limited.  But there are exceptions to most every rule and I'd hate to see you blamed, after the fact, for giving bad advice.

When setting a dime on the fret board adjacent to the first fret the actual "gauge" in effect is the thickness of the dime minus the peak height (or more properly: the crown height) of the fret.  That's the rub: there is no universal crown height.  Using StewMac as an example reference, their fret wire recommendation for a modern dulcimer would be the following profile: width=0.080", crown=0.040", tang=0.062".  However, who knows what fret convention (if any) was in effect over 30 years ago, and builders of any era are in many cases going to use what is readily available and/or go with their own personal preference - even staples.  Again, using StewMac as a readily available reference, their fret wire crown height options range from 0.036" to 0.074".  While the more extreme heights are recommended for electric guitar and bass, if rules can be broken then certainly recommendations can (and will) be ignored.

Now, bear with me, the thickness of a dime is 0.053". Therefore, using 0.040" as a "standard" dulcimer fret wire crown height, the effective "gauge" of a dime-on-a-fret board is 0.053"-0.040"=0.013".  In the "it won't work" example that I provided in my prior post, the crown height slightly exceeds 0.053" (thickness of a dime), and yes - the fret is properly set.  Clearly, in this particular case the nickle and dime method would be inappropriate for a nut adjustment.  Were I the newbie you portray me as, and blindly followed your advice, I would be screwed!  I will credit you as now being able to understand that.

Lastly, please pardon me for answering your "chest thumping", but I've been into a variety of stringed instruments for over 60 years, know a bit about "set-up" - up to and including complete fret jobs on guitars. In the final 21 years of my career I was a metrologist (that really IS a word meaning, briefly, "one who measures"), a legislative liaison and was responsible for state petroleum law enforcement - so I do know a bit about measuring things and rules and adversarial relationships. My intent here, and in my prior post, was in no way meant to belittle you.  I'm truly sorry you took it that way. However, my concerns about the nickle and dime method stand - they are justified.  I must say that your rebuttal was beneficial inspiration for additional research yielding such things as the thickness of a dime, information about fret wire profiles, and the availability of suitable feeler gauges to use between the string and first fret.  I found that a 17 blade feeler gauge set covering a range of 0.010" to 0.035" is available for $3.99 at an auto parts store within a mile of my home. Your effective target gauge of 0.013" is in that set and overall will be a valuable tool in determining the string-to-fret-gap in dulcimers that have what I perceive as good action as opposed to those that do not.  Until now I've been squeamish about messing with nut adjustments on my more prized dulcimers but your kick-in-the-butt has, though somewhat inadvertently, given me considerably more confidence. For that I thank you!

===============================================

UPDATE: I caught an error in my previous post which the forum daemon will not allow me to edit (I gather because it is too dated), so I will acknowledge it here. The symptom described in the second sentence following the quote is related to improper fret setting - not a low action adjustment at the nut.  An action set too low would be characterized by open string fret buzzing (duh!). No excuse for the misinformation other than a mind that drifted off while trying to meaningfully organize a plethora of intonation symptoms and causes. Note to self:  Don't multitask whilst writing technical material.

===============================================

Jim

updated by @jim-hedman: 04/01/18 01:14:03AM

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

...and in the "traditional" world there is pillow case and bed sheet! Yes that is a high action.....

 

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

I just tuned the melody string slightly lower. My pre-revival also is a little sharp so I'm pretty much used to it! Not that hard considering I use thumb/finger pick technique.

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Jim, I've been using the Nickel & Dime action set for nearly 40 years, and so have lots and lots of other people.  You aren't fretting or strumming while the coins are in place, simply using them as a gauge for the height of the action.

If you have "fret peaks" higher than a dime at the first fret, then the first fret probably needs to be re-set.

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

The bridge was glued down, so I popped it off... Now I'm just sanding it and checking the intonation in various positions. Good thing it's Friday night and I'm a home body, haha!

Advice on crack repair

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks for bringing up this topic. This winter in Western Pennsylvania has been a tough one on wooden instruments. One inexpensive little guitar with a very thin top developed 3 cracks and the whole top started to sink. I thought it was toast but my guitar tech just laughed and advised me to aggressively hydrate it and then glue the remaining cracks. I was dubious but it is actually working and I haven't even glued them yet!

Moral of this story is believe what they all say about hydrating your instruments and never give up without giving it a try. As my tech says, "The trees just want to go back to the forest!"

Barb

 

John Tignor dulcimer rework

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Thanks, everybody.  

Dan, the existing holes were carefully tapered with a violin reamer, and the new pegs shaved to fit with a violin peg shaver. Ken, I think they are old banjo planetary tuners, as you said.                                                                                        Jim, the planetary tuners were installed slightly cockeyed, with large external-tooth lockwashers.  I'm quite sure that John Tignor originally equipped his dulcimers with the walnut pegs I reproduced here.  And whoever restrung this dulcimer put 3 wound steel strings on it.  When the correct strings were mounted, the action was very high throughout.  The string spacing is consistent with the old J. E. Thomas and Amburgey noter/drone dulcimers.  They put the drones close together, at the far side of the fretboard, so it would be easier to play the melody string alone.

John Tignor dulcimer rework

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Nice new pegs John. The old ones look like planetary banjo tuners.

Ken

"The dulcimer sings a sweet song."

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Ken, are you sure about suggestion #3 in your post below?  You say:

However, fret profiles vary with regard to the peak height above the fret board.  In some cases, laying a dime on the fret board next to the fret could leave next to no allowance for the string to vibrate and gauging this way could cause the second fret to buzz when fretting the first fret, the third fret to buzz when fretting the second fret, etc.  I have one example where the fret peak is in fact a tad higher than a dime's thickness.

Another consideration is that, due to age or builder error, the setting of frets may vary somewhat from note to note, causing another source of fret peak variance and susceptibility to fret buzz.  This condition would of would be exacerbated with lower action adjustments - especially when performed at the nut. Frankly I opt for using a dime on top of the fret as a starting point and work from there.  Ideally, there must be a better top-of-fret gauge for determining nut depth cuts.

I appreciate you passing on conventional wisdom Ken, but I hope you appreciate my caveats to gauging with a dime as you described.  I'd hate to see someone trade better action for a fret resetting job or worse.

Having said that, Ken correctly points out that conventionally the mechanics of dulcimer action are evaluated at the first and seventh frets. I'll add that floating bridge placement is evaluated as relative intonation at the seventh fret versus its open string.

updated by @jim-hedman: 03/30/18 08:50:55PM

John Tignor dulcimer rework

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

John, I like what you did in fabricating those wooden pegs.  Personally, I prefer more of paddle shape for grips but if your fine efforts replicate an original pattern I'd opt for the same.

While your peg refit is aesthetically more pleasing than the "as found" set-up, I find those mechanical tuners quite intriguing. I've never seen anything quite like them.  While I wouldn't call myself an expert on mechanical key designs, I have done more than a little research into what's out there.  They definitely have an "old-timely" look.  Maybe your photos don't tell the whole story, but to say the mechanical tuners were "inexpertly mounted" may be a disservice.  After all, they were installed such that re-conversion to violin style pegs was pretty straightforward.  It is possible that they were installed by the maker - notwithstanding the "drilled through" peg box.  A number of builders employ drilled through peg boxes even though the finished product ends up with mechanical friction or geared tuners (e.g. McSpadden, May etc.).  I would definitely keep those unmounted mechanical tuners with the instrument as part of its provenance and availability for re-conversion should the owner not have the patience for violin-style friction pegs.

While I was glad to hear that the action was improved by simply deepening the string slots, I would hope that you did it with a 10 to 12 gauge melody string in mind because the high action could have simply been a matter of a 22+ gauge string in a 12 gauge cut - if you get my drift.

I really had to do a double-take on that string layout.  Namely the wider spacing between the melody string compared to the drones.  With that, and staples for frets, the builder apparently had optimizing noter/drone playing style in mind.  I'd probably go for a DAA string set with this.

Charity Case Pt.2: Side Crack and High Action

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

*Phil Markof (?)

John Tignor dulcimer rework

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Did you standardize the taper?

John Tignor dulcimer rework

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Nicely done, John! 

John Tignor dulcimer rework

Instruments- discuss specific features, luthiers, instrument problems & questions

Here are before and after photos of the Tignor pegs: